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Post by nikloveland on Sept 8, 2012 6:59:22 GMT -9
The scores are in and have been tallied! I'll make a formal announcement soon but I thought I'd let you know the results. Congratulations to the winners and thank you to all who participated. Attachments:
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Post by oldschooldm on Sept 8, 2012 7:05:31 GMT -9
Congratulations to all the winners!
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Post by gilius on Sept 8, 2012 9:23:15 GMT -9
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Post by kiladecus on Sept 11, 2012 14:39:16 GMT -9
There are a LOT of cool figures and scenery in these submissions. With talented artists like this, we are ALL winners!
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Post by nikloveland on Sept 11, 2012 15:03:28 GMT -9
There seems to be quite a bit of discussion about the Papercut Awards over on Facebook. I don't actually own a Facebook Account so Labrat had to tell me about it. I'm posting what I last saw for reference in my following post: Blake Stargazer Matt Razincka Reivaj Vall Johan Kruger Matt Razincka Reivaj Vall Matt Razincka Johan Kruger Matt Razincka Aaron Bradbury Johan Kruger Matt Razincka Johan Kruger Matt Razincka Glenn Williams Blake Stargazer I talked to Aaron about it a bit before posting and he advised me to stay neutral on the topic but I must admit it is a bit hard when I am being called a liar. I have made every attempt to maintain fairness with this contest. The judging rules have been used for the last two contest now with Labrat entering in both times. Community input was solicited and incorporated into the 2nd years competition but most of which was dealing with category distinction (but no hairiest cow, sorry Ian). No suggestion mentioned issues with judging or results. Calling in question the fairness of the competition after the results are posted when there has been ample time prior seems to me to be a bit self serving and disingenuous. Now to clarify some inaccuracies. There is no “cash prize.” It is a $50 gift certificate to RPGNow. Secondly, the judges unanimously voted for Eddnic's Gold Dragon however that submission failed to reach either the first or second place due to its placing in the forum polls. The judges had just as much sway on the results as the forum. No more, no less. And to the fact that Labrat won. Aaron did not actually even vote as a judge (he was busy with other obligations) and I did not vote for his submissions (1st or 2nd years) since I was involved with their creation (not in any artistic capacity, just layout). Yet he still placed second in the judging even being seriously disadvantaged. I think this is a testament to the true quality of his artwork. And together with his second place ranking on the forum, he FAIRLY won. However, Aaron has offered to relinquish his 1st place prizes to the next submission in line. With a small community such as ours, it is hard to be exclusionary and still maintain a pool of submissions ( the diorama category barely had enough this year). That is why I devised what I felt was fair but still allowed for a panel of judges. Thank you for your feedback. For further comments on forum issues, please post them in the forum so the rest of the visitors don't have to go track them down. P.S. I'm sorry Kane you feel that way. We try to be supportive but have limited time.
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Post by gilius on Sept 11, 2012 16:37:42 GMT -9
nikloveland: "The judging rules have been used for the last two contest now with Labrat entering in both times."
I have to agree with this and it was the first thing that came to my mind. Also, the submissions were known during the contest so if, say, this year had less contestants and that somehow made labrat's submission seem unfair, there was time to comment about that before the voting/judging began.
Anyway, I've seen the papercut awards as another iteration (although more formal) of the MMIP showcases or forum hoards: a celebration of the hobby, a motivator for people to create and share.
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Post by oldschooldm on Sept 11, 2012 17:19:19 GMT -9
As one of those who clearly won the popular vote, but lost due to judging, I'll say three things:
1) I was disappointed (and wished I knew the judges criteria) 2) It was exactly according to the rules - and I knew there was a chance that I wouldn't win, even though I won the popular vote. I knew that cowboyland is only something I can aspire to... 3) I DO NOT feel ripped off/cheated in any way (though, I really wanted that $50RPGNow cash...) :-)
I think part of the problem is some of the voting is public and in advance of the judging. It isn't unfair, but it's unnecessarily awkward.
Might I suggest that the judging take place by secret sealed ballot that isn't opened until after the public judging? And at that time how each judge votes (and comments) is made public?
I know for me, I'd really like to know what I could do differently to improve my technique so I might enter next year. As it stands now, I'm not sure I'd enter again given the lack of feedback.
I think this contest is about us celebrating each others achievements - not pitting us against one another.
Another possibility: Give out separate awards: Most Popular, Judges Favorite, and Overall. You know, like "Peoples Choice" vs. The Oscars.
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Post by old squirmydad on Sept 11, 2012 18:58:48 GMT -9
I like the idea of a "People's Choice" award, basically a Best in Show selected from all entrants.
The above strikes me as a bit of sour grapes reaction, Labrat is a part of Sanity Studios, but not a judge. I ran the MMiP Showcases for years, and entered many of them, and never heard any complaints that I was in contention for my own prize money.
Labrat was not a judge, but I was. Part of a competition is also who you are competing with and, since you asked oldschooldm, here is my critique of your entry;
Sellswords of Punjar by OldSchoolDM (2nd) - I can see a lot of labor went into this set, but it also looks cluttered and doesn't really tell me a story, other than that there's lots of stuff going on. I'll admit I also have a prejudice against the look of WWG's Terraclips - they make it easy to build cool big sets, but they just look "clunky" to me.
To me, a diorama should tell a story, Theseus Advances story was very clear to me, Sellswords less so.
Hope this helps, Eric
P.S. The more people that participate in voting, the smaller the impact of the judges votes becomes.
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Post by oldschooldm on Sept 11, 2012 21:44:26 GMT -9
The above strikes me as a bit of sour grapes reaction I'm assuming you mean the Facebook transcription, not my followup comments. :-) Award or not, my submission won the popular vote, something that made me happy - not sour. :-D Sellswords of Punjar by OldSchoolDM (2nd) - I can see a lot of labor went into this set, but it also looks cluttered and doesn't really tell me a story, other than that there's lots of stuff going on. I'll admit I also have a prejudice against the look of WWG's Terraclips - they make it easy to build cool big sets, but they just look "clunky" to me.To me, a diorama should tell a story, Theseus Advances story was very clear to me, Sellswords less so. Thanks for the feedback. I really do appreciate it. P.S. The more people that participate in voting, the smaller the impact of the judges votes becomes. Is this mathematically true? The results sheet didn't seem to reflect that to me - looked like the judges total was 50% of the final score no matter how many people participated in the poll. What am I missing? Note that I'm not complaining about the process, only confused by your statement. Thanks for being a judge. I have containers full of your models...
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Post by kane on Sept 11, 2012 21:48:21 GMT -9
Hey, thought I'd chime in on this. Nik, I honestly didn't mean for that to be an insult. You guys have a business to run and I respect that. Way-back-when, their were not that many people here and Jim had time to mentor just about everyone. Things change. Time goes on. The site is MUCH bigger than it was then. I'd never ask you to try and duplicate it as their is not enough time in the day. I do appreciate that you guys have left things almost entirely unchanged. Just like any community, though, at a certain size, things fall by the wayside. No ones fault. Just the way things are.
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Post by kiladecus on Sept 12, 2012 3:09:14 GMT -9
Wow. I feel that sometimes if I weren't here, the whole papercraft industry would run smoother! Yes, those were my posts on Facebook, and I didn't try to slam SANITY STUDIOS or anything. I simply stated that Labrat's work was very good, and I also mentioned that he went from third place to sweeping the category. Do I think his work DIDN'T deserve to win? Of course not. His entry was BRILLIANT! I personally purchased the set when it came out, and use it FREQUENTLY! I must confess that I didn't realize he wasn't a judge (and this was NOT my chomping at the bit and jumping to conclusions, rather just something I didn't realize). I never meant to make Labrat nor Nik cound like they "cheated," and I have a LOT of respect for them. Labrat is my friend on Facebook, and I feel that I addressed the "concern" in professional way, and even included him in the posts to not sound like I was talking behind his back. I even stated that my set ended up being dead-last, so it wasn't like I was saying that I was losing out on anything. Perhaps I didn't fully understand the way the voting went. Reivaj's Cleric SWEPT the competion, but had the judges voted diffently, say choosing Tonsha's Giant, then the fact that Reivaj's nearly 60% choice would have been for nought. Now, I don't want to come off as a "poor sport," or "sore-loser," because I won't be walking away from this empty-handed... Angus the Black did pretty well. The reason I mention this on Facebook and not here is for this EXACT reason. Once again, I feel I have to defend myself for sharing my feelings. At NO point did I say that Labrat should give up his "win." This is done in fun, but also, it IS a competition, after all. I know Sammo ponied-up some great prizes, and there is a LOT that was offered. The last thing I want to happen is to have someone say, "It just isn't worth it, we're not going to do this again." There are MANY good suggestions and thoughts in this post, and I am sure there are MANY more that will be posted. Once again, I am sorry to ANYONE I have offended, and I hope that you can re-read all of the posts above, and see there is NO malicious intent nor liable intended. Just one guys thoughts, and his friends "chiming in." I hope this helps to clarify everything. If there is still concern, feel free to post here, email me, send me a PM or address me on Facebook. I am available to discuss this or any other concerns you may have. Thank you for your attention.
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Post by kiladecus on Sept 12, 2012 3:19:29 GMT -9
Oh, one other thing....
I think that perhaps there should be a separate category for 2.5/3D models.
Eddnic's Gold dragon is BRILLIANT! I also REALLY like Mesper's dragon. I think that they should have really been in a separate category... they aren't really "2D Single Figures" and they shouldn't have to compete with a "set."
I know that means more prizes, but I for one would rather see lesser prizes, and more "fitting" categories. Had I not voted, and had to choose between Labrat's Orcs or Eddnic's Dragon... that is a tough call!
Just one suggestion...
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Post by glennwilliams on Sept 12, 2012 5:45:46 GMT -9
I'll reiterate my argument that if you run a contest or are involved with its sponsor, you should be sidelined. Not that the work isn't brilliant, not that it doesn't deserve praise and recognition. I guess it's those years of federal service and having to avoid even the appearance of bias or misdeeds.
From my point of view, honest mistakes are how you learn. I don't think there was any bias, but that's not the point. "Caesar's wife must be above suspicion." Next year try something different.
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 12, 2012 6:43:51 GMT -9
I'm sorry that this excellent idea has taken a bad turn. Like Glenn says, learn from it. There are a lot of good points made in this post that should be considered for next year.
Here's to an excellent Papercut Awards 2013!
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Post by old squirmydad on Sept 12, 2012 7:08:14 GMT -9
The above strikes me as a bit of sour grapes reaction I'm assuming you mean the Facebook transcription, not my followup comments. :-) Award or not, my submission won the popular vote, something that made me happy - not sour. :-D Yes, sorry, I should have clarified. Part of the reason for my statement was that the discussion was going on on Facebook, instead of here, which is a much better place for this. I'm glad the discussion has moved to here. I think, because I don't know all the details, or even who all of the judges are, that there were almost as many judges as public voters...more public input is always a good thing. Your'e welcome. kiladecus: I'm glad you've moved your commentary here, not everyone's on Facebook, and if management doesn't directly hear that there were concerns about how something was handled, then they can't address those concerns...again, thank you. Also, I agree with your idea of expanding the categories to accomodate specialized work like Eddnic's and cowboyleland's 2.5D work. Smaller prize amounts would help to offset the expansion of categories, say $15-$20 per category and $30 for the Best in Show award? Thanks, Eric
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Post by old squirmydad on Sept 12, 2012 8:39:51 GMT -9
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Post by oldschooldm on Sept 12, 2012 9:32:57 GMT -9
Awesome. The other guys in my category know this already, I guess. :-)
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Post by labrat on Sept 12, 2012 11:59:47 GMT -9
Good stuff here. Thanks for your input everyone.
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Post by dcbradshaw on Sept 12, 2012 16:56:09 GMT -9
I've been thinking carefully how to join in this conversation, which I see as very constructive overall.
I personally have no problem with the Sanity guys joining in the contest, for a couple of reasons:
This is, and certainly should be, a contest of the hobby's peers, and therefore I think any/all quality pieces should be admissible, commercial or otherwise. Nik and Aaron are upstanding members of the industry in part because of the site and forum, so I think it only fair and healthy that their creations should be a part of a hobby-wide contest.
Therefore, I think they both understand that there's a level of conflict of interest, and do what is necessary to side-step it, in having non-contestant judges--they certainly don't want this to become an "I won my own contest" thing.
That being said, I can see how it might be construed as strange that a prize could be awarded to an admin of the site hosting the contest. Again, I personally don't have any issue with it, but I can understand how to an outside observer it could come off as weird.
I'm not sure what the best solution is, other than to be up-front and very clear with the entry and judging rules--maybe declare the judges publicly with the call for entries, or maybe farm out the entire judging/prize process to a fully-neutral 3rd party, or start a separate "Papercut Showcase" website or some such that hosts the awards, or a non-entrant "sponsor" for each category that oversees entries and rating... I really don't know. There has to be some kind of way to engineer this so that everyone can freely enter and there's subsequently no apparent bias about the winners.
oldschooldm, I want to make a quick remark about your build--since you've posted those photos, I've been showing them to all my gamer friends, and the consensus is 100% that you clearly put a lot of time and effort into it, and they want to come over to your house to play with it. In other words, "Why don't you build stuff like that for us to play on, DC?" ;D.
You've made a really cool, intricate, super-detailed table that's fully functional, *playable*, and clearly showcases the abilities of the medium (that we all realize here), and that is impressive and I commend you. My maze was most definitely not playable; it was fiddly and top heavy and built like a movie set--to take good pictures--and the first time someone sneezed or tried to squeeze a model haphazardly into the tiny nooks and crannies, the whole thing would have fallen like a line of dominos.
And I sort of alluded to this last year- it makes me wish that there was an additional category, something separate from Diorama to enter full-on, playable table builds of paper terrain, but I do understand that they want to keep the categories simple and straight-forward.
And finally, I want to say that how much I appreciate that everyone here is striving to keep this cordial and make the process transparent. The contest, and the whole forum, after all, are demonstrations of the art, artistry, and extent of the hobby, and so it's great that we can keep things like this out in the open and try to make them better.
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Post by cowboyleland on Sept 12, 2012 17:36:19 GMT -9
My two cents: If you are going to weight the judges to poll balance to the point where the judges can basically reverse the poll, don't bother with the poll.
Secondly, if we all want to improve the hobby, we need to see what the judges liked and disliked about each entry. There will always be matters of personal taste, but there may also be "technical issues" that we can try to correct in our own work going forward.
What I would want most if I were to win (if I were ever to enter) is bragging rights, so smaller, or even non-existent prizes would be fine by me.
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Post by oldschooldm on Sept 12, 2012 18:11:33 GMT -9
oldschooldm, I want to make a quick remark about your build--since you've posted those photos, I've been showing them to all my gamer friends, and the consensus is 100% that you clearly put a lot of time and effort into it, and they want to come over to your house to play with it. In other words, "Why don't you build stuff like that for us to play on, DC?" ;D. You've made a really cool, intricate, super-detailed table that's fully functional, *playable*, and clearly showcases the abilities of the medium (that we all realize here), and that is impressive and I commend you. OMG! Thanks. The heartfelt praise of my peers is worth more than $50 in pdf credits! BTW, DCB, I knew you'd be the guy to beat - your super mega build last year inspired me to build this entire street out to the best of my abilities. That's why I think the contest is a good thing - we inspire each other! Oh yeah - my 4th ed group is looking for a mage to join them - we're in Stanford University area...
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Post by nikloveland on Sept 13, 2012 7:56:55 GMT -9
Wow, this is some of the best feedback we've had for the Papercut Awards. I guess a little controversy gets people more involved (although not entirely health when done too often). Things change. Time goes on. The site is MUCH bigger than it was then. I'd never ask you to try and duplicate it as their is not enough time in the day. I do appreciate that you guys have left things almost entirely unchanged. Just like any community, though, at a certain size, things fall by the wayside. No ones fault. Just the way things are. Thanks for understand. I sometimes find myself pining for my high school days when things were simpler then they are now. But alas, things always change... The results sheet didn't seem to reflect that to me - looked like the judges total was 50% of the final score no matter how many people participated in the poll. You're correct. The poll's and judge's rankings were each 50% of the total. (Sorry squirmydad, you win some you lose some ) Wow. I feel that sometimes if I weren't here, the whole papercraft industry would run smoother! Awww, that's not true. Look at the wonderful discussion you've started. I do think it's wise to lower the prize amount, at least in “cash” giveaways. I would like to see a wider range of sponsors offering free sets, but we'll lower the gift certificate prize (the first place winner in a category getting only $10 or something). I don't think the competition has really become overly competitive but it will reduce the “disappointment” since there's not as much at stake. I also like having a separate peoples choice award (in addition to category winners). I'm not quite sure how to make that easy to run. Perhaps the winner with the largest percentage of poll votes within their category get's the peoples choice... That would skew the peoples choice to categories with fewer entries though (just me thinking out loud). I understand the desire to compete against similar contestants but I don't think we should add additional categories. Giving someone an award when they were the only two possibilities seems silly. I think once any given category has more than 10 entrants, we can look at splitting it further but until then it will probably stay the same. The good news is that the papercraft set category had seven, so we are getting there Squirmydad, Sammo and myself were this years judges (fewer than I hoped but the show must go on). I am not going to post their comments unless they give me permission since it wasn't stated before that they would be public. I will however make that understood for future awards. All judges comments will be publicly available. I don't actually type my comments (since I just vote directly) but if you want feedback about your specific entry from me please email me and I'll be happy to supply it. This is the judging criteria sent all the judges last year. I didn't send it to Eric or Sam this years since they had already been judges before: I do want to keep the distinction of judges and forum results. I think it helps add some “voice” (for lack of a better word) to the competition. I will pare it back though and make their results only 20% of the final. The forum polls will be “sealed” until the winners are announced and I think it will help to allow for two votes in each category for the polls next year. I still don't want to disallow judges from also competing so it will remain the same. Judges can enter but cannot vote for their own work as a judge. I don't actually think that was the issue though. It was that Labrat and I could enter. And so it will be decreed: Aaron and I will no longer enter future Papercut Awards. I like the idea of announcing the judges at the time of submission calls but we have a very fluid group of people that have various demands. Some may not know if they are available (or can remember JK) a month out. However, I will try to have five judges lined up sooner. Thank you all. We will get this Papercut Award thing hammered out so by the time the 20th rolls around it will be a well-run competition. Here's to an excellent Papercut Awards 2013! Here, here!
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 13, 2012 10:08:12 GMT -9
As far as weighting the judges' results, have the judge's votes count double or triple that of us common folk. Five judges at 3X weighting means that if we have 15 commoners voting, it would be 50/50, but if we get 25 popular votes, it would be 62.5/37.5. I think something along those lines would be more appealing to most of us.
On other forums that I ran, we had the option of putting polls and announcements on the home page, without having to go to the 'Paper Cut Awards' section for instance. If it can be done with Proboards, we'd keep the awards submissions and voting in the limelight.
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Post by old squirmydad on Sept 13, 2012 10:14:05 GMT -9
You may freely post my commentary, I thought you would be anyways.
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Post by kiladecus on Sept 13, 2012 11:20:31 GMT -9
I can honestly say that had I known Labrat wasn't one of the judges, I wouldn't have even mentioned it. I REGRET that I mentioned it now... He is an AMAZING artist, and I am sorry that I eliminated him from the competition in the future. I think that the 33% vote is MORE than fair. We had someting like 25 people voting (you know the numbers, I am just trying to remember off the top of my head), and three "judges" votes were equal... That is like saying 1 judge = 8 standard votes. 1=3 is a MUCH better average. I think if you are concerned about having enough people contribute, then perhaps you could allow up to two submissions per artist/contributor. I am not crazy about the "hidden" results for the voting. I, for one, enjoyed checking the site and seeing how I am fairing. It would like going to a sporting event, and there is no scoreboard. You would have to wait until the end of the game to see who won. Seeing as though I am friends with many people here, we encourage one another and I could razz Reivaj about his cleric running away with the prize. I STILL think that having a 2.5/3D figure as a separate category is STILL the best way to go. I fo one wouldn't want one of my figures going up against something of Eddnic's, CowboyLeland's or even Squirmydad's Steam Tower. If people could submit two figures, then it would beef up the competition. Sure, people would be competing against themselves, but if one of my figures beat another one, I could live with that. As far as having two votes per person, that is a GREAT idea. There were MANY sets and figures I wanted to vote for, but... I know there is a year to prepare... I was part of it, and I have to confess, it was a BLAST! I would like to hear some feedback from the judges why my set went from a "contender" to "dead-last," though. Sure it was an early set for me, and I have a lot of improvement to build on, but if you could PM me or email me about what my set was lacking, I welcome that. Also, in the future, I will limit my submission to a maximum of three pictures... as with the other categories. Ok, thanks for the input and follow-up on this.
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Post by sammo on Sept 14, 2012 11:07:41 GMT -9
I little late to the party (as usual)... but better late than never.
I haven't been posting much lately (time has been a precious commodity for me since June, challenging new job and all that), but I have been keeping up on the reading and checking in form time to time, so please don't think this is coming out of the blue.
Anyway, feel free to post my results and comments as a judge if you want to. limited as those comments might be.
As for my 2 cents on judging... it might be a good idea to remove yourself from the judging (Nik and Labrat) and keep those submissions coming! Then with voting and judging solely in 3rd party hands you could win or loose with the rest of us. It looks like at this point it will be easier to get Judges than contestants.
Having the polls be private until the end I think is a good idea in general, and would not taint judges votes. Though I turned my result in on 8/12, there were still plenty of ballots left to be cast. As for the 50/50 split, I don't think that is unwarranted, though a broader pool of judges is always better.
There are other dangers of impropriety in having things based to heavily on the public pole as well (ask Mountain Dew about the naming contest for their new green apple flavor).
As for a peoples choice award. I love the idea. I'd make that it's own poll with all of the entries combined, maybe a single prize for 1st place (perhaps with a different prize than the rest of the categories).
Lastly, though it doesn't look like anyone here is really suggesting that the contest was rigged in any way.... I'd just like to say that as a contestant, a judge and a forum member, this contest has been completely transparent. With the possible exception that the judges results are not posted until the awards are over, everything has been out in the open for everyone to see.
I plan to lend my support with prizes, entries and (if asked) judging next year as well!
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