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Post by sithcundman on Dec 12, 2011 11:21:27 GMT -9
Dr Von Kiladecus, a Rebuttal
(places soapbox on the ground and climbs on top)
Ahem...I am not a hero, or a villain, or a mad scientist, I’m just Joe Average.
It is argued that every Bad-Guy sees himself as the Good-Guy but, invoking a regimen that targets the victim instead of the perpetrator exposes Dr Von Kiladecus (the fictional character) as the tyrant he is. Instead of forcing young ladies to cover-up and be ashamed of their bodies, the heroic approach would be to teach young boys that staring up (or down) a young ladies dress is totally unacceptable (If they’re that desperate to see nipples, tell them to look in a mirror.). To imply that the fault lies in how women are dressed, and not in how men behave, is the first step on a very slippery slope. As for the procedure known as a “nipplectomy”, even if it is performed by a hypothetical doctor, it is nothing short of barbaric. All women, be they flesh and blood or ink and paper, should be free to wear whatever they want, from burka to strategically placed fig leaf, without fear of censure or mutilation.
Hear my cry…THE OPPOSITE OF CENSORSHIP IS FREEDOM!!...cough, cough,…probably shouldn’t have shouted that last bit, I think I’ve strained my throat.
J.A.
PS Having said that, I think Miss Mam may be a step too far in the opposite direction…sorry
(tucks soapbox under arm and exits, sheepishly, stage left)
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 12, 2011 14:00:44 GMT -9
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Post by cowboyleland on Dec 13, 2011 6:33:51 GMT -9
Ok, for the record, I did not remove any nipples, I just allowed them to be covered. If a woman is nude you can see her nipples and that is well and good. I am in favour of nipples on bare breasted mermaids, nymphs, harpies and even the occasional human. Those who don't like those models can simply not download them. However if a woman is wearing something (almost anything) it is entirely possible that the fall of the cloth and the angle of the light and the ambient temperature conspire to hide the outline of the nipple. I just googled images of "silk teddy" and of the ten pictures I oggled looked at about half the photos are of this nature. It is not about shame, it is about photons. Since it can reasonably go either way and omitting the black semi-circle will allow your fig to appeal to more people why not go that way? I would rather loose optional tiny black lines than a customer/fan/forum friend. I appreciate the humour in the soap-box speach, but I also felt the need to make myself clear. Freedom, Respect and Reasonable Accomodation in the Interest of a Large and Happy Community!!!! (boy shouting those slogans really does take it out of you
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Post by sithcundman on Dec 14, 2011 8:43:33 GMT -9
However if a woman is wearing something (almost anything) it is entirely possible that the fall of the cloth and the angle of the light and the ambient temperature conspire to hide the outline of the nipple. I just googled images of "silk teddy" and of the ten pictures I oggled looked at about half the photos are of this nature. What we put ourselves through in the name of research. My post was a satirical response to another post which was a tongue-in-cheek villainous rant in support of censorship. That initial post has subsequently been removed (whether this was to make mine look like an unprovoked attack, I don’t know. I couldn't possibly comment ) so I have modified my post as it now lacks context. Edit:I have realised the hypocrisy of censoring my own post complaining about censorship, so I’ve restored it to the best of my ability I would rather loose optional tiny black lines than a customer/fan/forum friend. Hypothetically, if a friend espoused an oppressive view, I would feel obliged to “bust” their “chops” about it. If their espousal was couched in a humorous fashion, then the “Chop Busting” would take the same form. If the friend chose to interpret any failure to toe their line as an attack, then that would call in to question how much of a friend they were to begin with. Beyond the concept of Censorship itself, a number of things bother me; Some (not all) artists here have felt pressured to compromise their artwork. The level of detail included in (or excluded from) an artwork should be determined by the artist’s integrity, not imposed by a third person. I found some of the verbal imagery used quite disturbing and misogynistic. Consider what the word “Nipplectomy” actually means and ask yourself if you really are comfortable using it. Having said that, I see that the original “Nipplectomy” post has mysteriously disappeared (destroying the evidence?...I couldn't possibly comment ) so at least some of my message got through. It’s bad enough that some women end up having “Body Issues”, as a result of being told they are too fat or too thin or that their breasts are too small or too large, but to then turn around and tell them that it doesn’t matter what size or shape it is, any female body is offensive and should kept hidden at all times, that just makes it a thousand times worse. I had thought this was an open-minded forum for the free exchange of ideas, but I find myself being accused of an attack Then I see other people are attacking that, too. This is what I do for fun. When MANY people attack you and make fun of you, then it is no longer fun. and vilified Balls to the lot of them ... ...I pity those that that do. It must a fairly sad, negative existence. just for having the temerity to hold an opposing viewpoint…my mistake For clarity, I should point out (yet again) that at no point did any of this have anything to do with the ever helpful Kiladecus. It’s all part of the never-ending battle against the oppressive machinations of the nefarious Dr Von Kiladecus (presumably an evil twin).
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Post by cowboyleland on Dec 14, 2011 10:28:32 GMT -9
I'm actually enjoying this debate. ;D Please don't think I'm being angry. We probably more agree than disagree on this issue, but let me play "Von Kiladicus Advocate" for a while I think it is equally possible that nipples get added to pictures out of exploitation and objectification than trying to advance liberation. I don't believe that a long stream of women with hour glass figures (pleasant as I find it to admire!) is going to help anybody with their body image issues. And I'm not suggesting that all nipples should be repressed or that people should not post the pictures they feel inspired to draw, I just want to make sure everyone is thinking about the choices they are making. As a percentage, I think I see fewer errect nipples in real life than I do in RPG art. And don't think it is for want of looking.
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 14, 2011 12:05:31 GMT -9
I have to agree, but I don't agree that there is a morality lapse on the part of the designer if he draws a hint of nipple. This whole debate is based on designers feeling like their moral character is being attacked because of their creations having a hint of nipple. Kiladecus may have felt attacked for his viewpoints, but most people when 'attacked' fight back, in this case with humor to take the sting out of it. His 'attackers' were actually defenders. I don't think he meant for it to be an attack, but if I were on the receiving end, I would feel like I was attacked. But since the posts have been deleted, can we drop this?
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Post by cowboyleland on Dec 14, 2011 14:13:53 GMT -9
Sure, we I can quit anytime . . . really, I'm not stubborn or anything . . . um, is there a dead horse thread I can go flogg my ideas at?
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Post by sithcundman on Dec 14, 2011 14:32:45 GMT -9
Please don't think I'm being angry. I never, for one moment, thought you were But since the posts have been deleted, can we drop this? Fine by me. I've said "Nipple" so many times now that the word has lost all meaning. ;D
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Post by kiladecus on Dec 14, 2011 14:56:07 GMT -9
I liked the squirrel avatar better. I hope I didn't offend you by saying that. Funny, RevGunn never complained about comments he and I shared. I think it is sweet that you felt it necessary to stick up for for him. Please, if anyone was offended by me, let me know. How is it I went from being the "class clown," to the alleged "bully. Seriously, Rev... if you are upset with me, let me know! I saw two brothers in a bar once. They called each other MANY names. A stranger walked up to them, and asked which one was right, for they BOTH couldn't be an idiot. The two men turned on him, insisting he mind his own business. They took him out back and beat the tar out of him. Knuckles bloody, they returned to the pool table, as the first man asked, "Whose shot is it, Idiot?" Not saying... just saying. (If nothing else, I see I have taught you a new phrase). Sometimes, I can't help but be a bear.
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Post by old squirmydad on Dec 14, 2011 16:24:57 GMT -9
Just reposting this so it can't be edited away. I liked the squirrel avatar better. I hope I didn't offend you by saying that. Funny, RevGunn never complained about comments he and I shared. I think it is sweet that you felt it necessary to stick up for for him. Please, if anyone was offended by me, let me know. How is it I went from being the "class clown," to the alleged "bully. Seriously, Rev... if you are upset with me, let me know! I saw two brothers in a bar once. They called each other MANY names. A stranger walked up to them, and asked which one was right, for they BOTH couldn't be an idiot. The two men turned on him, insisting he mind his own business. They took him out back and beat the tar out of him. Knuckles bloody, they returned to the pool table, as the first man asked, "Whose shot is it, Idiot?" Not saying... just saying. (If nothing else, I see I have taught you a new phrase). Sometimes, I can't help but be a bear.
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Post by dragnoz on Dec 14, 2011 23:53:36 GMT -9
Bloody hell... im offline for one day in Germany and a war has broken out on this thread lol...
There is a lot of good points here, and yes I created Miss Mam as a satyrical way to address the censorship debate. This has been done many times by many artist over the last few thousand years.
Personally I am against any form of censorship because I use my common sense to decide what I want and dont want to see. If I dont like something I just skip over it or just dont put myself in a situation where I will be exposed to it again.
What really annoys me more than anything is that if I do want to see something I am told I am not allowed to because someone, somewhere decided I am not allowed to.
Problem with censorship is where to stop? shall we now remove all high healed boots and shoes from our models? after all the only reasons high heals were invented was to tighten the buttocks and pelvic muscles to apear more fertile.
Shall we remove lipstick? It was originally used to mimic the appearance of an excited female sexual organs?
What about corsets? pushup bras? false eye lashes? etc... The only way will be to have androgynous cyborgs with no other motive but to kill.
.... and then we enter into the kill, murder, war debate...
so we end up with androgynous cyborgs sitting still with no motives at all....
and then we enter the purity of the human race debate....
so we end up with androgynous robots sitting still with no motives....
....... ....... ......
what saddens me is that you guys actually deleted your posts, everything else now has no context and just looks like the ramblings of fanatics or mad men....
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 15, 2011 5:54:47 GMT -9
Or in my own personal situation, it could be because I am a fanatic or a mad man ... mwahahahaha
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Post by cowboyleland on Dec 15, 2011 6:33:07 GMT -9
Um, I know I said I'd stop but, with appologies to Vermin King who has tried twice the lighten up this thread there is some stuff I want to say.
There is a lot of discussion on this thread about censorship and that never happened. I don't want to put words into anyones mouth but here is how I think this thread unfolded:
Revgunn posted a fig that included the hint of a nipple under a chemise/teddy/ I don't know what it really should be called.
Kiladicus mentioned that he had not changed his view (stated in a previous conversation with Revgunn) that nipples were not needed on figs.
Despite the fact that I DON'T see nipples as family UNfriendly, I admit to the fact that almost any clothing actually hides nipples and since Revgunn had INVITED MODIFICATIONS; I (after fixing an eye that Rev. said he was unhappy with) also "un-errected" the left nipple (which was the only one really obvious) as a friendly Holiday gesture to Kiladicus who I feel has made a great contribution to this community over the years. I respect him despite the fact that I lined up against him in a "bare mid-riff debate" in the past.
To my mind my mod was not un-like Parduz redrawing the gun-slinger with a shorter neck. Neither is wrong or inaccurate, it is just a matter of taste.
Dragonoz then posted Miss Mam to "take the micky out of Kil"
and Kil responded with a humourous in character monologue and Sithcunde added a "satiracle response" to Kil's monologue.
Then somehow it wasn't fun anymore and people felt mis-understood and tried to back out by removing posts etc. and now we are on to "oppression" and "censorship" and a clown/bully identity crisis.
BUT there has been no censorship. No one at any time suggested that either Revgunn's original Lottie nor Dragnoz's Miss Mam be taken down. I offered an alternate version of Lottie. That is MORE expression, not less.
Again, sorry to not let this drop.
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Post by kiladecus on Dec 15, 2011 11:23:56 GMT -9
That was a good sum-up. This isn't the first time one of my post have gone on forever... and ever... ...and ever... One reason I have decided to post a lot less.
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Post by josedominguez on Dec 15, 2011 13:58:15 GMT -9
I love the way you post to say you won't be posting so much Never change mate There aren't many really regular posters on here, we need to stick together. Anyway, I respect your views, it leaves more bobb for me and cowboy
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Post by kiladecus on Dec 15, 2011 14:41:08 GMT -9
I AM posting "less." One day I looked at the column on the right hand side, and EVERY catagory said, "Last comment made by kiladecus at..."
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Post by sithcundman on Dec 16, 2011 8:39:06 GMT -9
...I saw two brothers in a bar once. They called each other MANY names. A stranger walked up to them, and asked which one was right, for they BOTH couldn't be an idiot. The two men turned on him, insisting he mind his own business. They took him out back and beat the tar out of him. Knuckles bloody, they returned to the pool table, as the first man asked, "Whose shot is it, Idiot?" Not saying... just saying. (If nothing else, I see I have taught you a new phrase). Sometimes, I can't help but be a bear. A Buddhist Monk was travelling through a town when he came across a Man, bruised and bleeding, lying at the side of the road. “Goodness!” said the Monk, “What happened to you my son?” The Man explained that he had been in a bar where Two Men had been arguing and that, when he had tried to placate them and reason with them, they had dragged him outside and beaten him up. The Monk shook his head sadly and, having tended to the Man’s injuries, made his way to the bar. The Two Men were still there and, while they had tried to remove any evidence there had ever been a fight, they were still arguing over whose view of the world was correct. The Monk approached them and said “If we hold on to one stalk of wheat, and trample down all others, then truly we all will starve”. As they had done so many times before, the Two Men simply clenched their fists and swung at the Monk. But the agile Monk merely stepped out of the way and they missed. Again they swung and again they missed, and again, and again. At first, the other Bar Patrons cheered on the local boys but gradually, as they realised how determined these Two Big Men were to beat up the tiny Monk, they began to see them for what they were and, one by one, they turned away in embarrassed silence. On and on it went, the Two Men swinging and the Monk stepping out of the way. Swing and miss. Swing and miss. Until eventually, tired and exhausted, the Two Men collapsed. As they lay there, gasping for breath, the Monk leaned over them and quietly whispered “If you believe that yours is the only voice and all others must be silenced, with violence (or the thinly veiled threat of violence), then truly it can be said…You are both Idiots”. Shaking his head sadly, the One Monk turned and quietly left the Bar. …Of course, being idiots, the men didn’t learn the lesson and still argued and fought but, when they did, the Locals threw them out of the Bar. Karma? Bullies getting their comeuppance? You may say that, I couldn’t possibly comment. I much prefer my story but, then again, most of the time I’m just a Squirrel
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Post by old squirmydad on Dec 16, 2011 18:04:35 GMT -9
That's a nice ending to this thread. Please keep any further personal attacks or snide remarks confined to your personal messages. Eric
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