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 Author | Topic: Foot Soldiers (Read 2,912 times) |
labrat
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Parduz
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|  | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #1 on Oct 6, 2010, 5:03am » | |
Nice.
Sentinels and guards are always good, imho.
I'll go nitpicking as usual:
- There is something weird in the back view of the hand of the first soldier.... i can't tell what it is...the way it holds the spear....
- Perfectly round shields with perfectly horizontal insignas means that they're perfectly aligned to my view, and perfectly hold by the guards.
I'd add a bit of perspective to the shields, and some degree of counterclockwise rotation: this should give the illusion of a heavy thing (the arm holding it tends to fall) and a bit of realism to the guards.
- You should draw big contours for the thing in "front", and thin lines for the things in the background.... so i'd make the shield lines more thick to make it stands out from the torso. The spear and the right hand should receive the same treatment to make them stands against the foot and the arm.
- I'd change the red cloth side. Cutting the hole formed by the cloth, the arm and the spear is harder than cutting a contour.
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Dryw the Harper
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #2 on Oct 6, 2010, 10:54am » | |
I don't know about the little things, I like them. But then again I make "Imperfect" People. If hands are a problem I suggest gauntlets (either leather or metal).
Dryw the Harper
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sammo
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #3 on Oct 6, 2010, 11:42am » | |
I think the only thing that would catch my eye once the mini was printed (and built and sitting on the table 2 feet away) is the perfectly level shields. Rotating and skewing them a tad (as parduz suggests) would certainly make them look more natural. The back of the hand catches my eye as well, but I think it will be much less noticeable when built.
Other than that they look pretty awesome, definitely a good start for an army of humans.
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Parduz
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #4 on Oct 6, 2010, 12:17pm » | |
Uh... if my post sounds like i did'nt like them, sorry. I think they're nice and very well done.
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labrat
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #5 on Oct 6, 2010, 3:24pm » | |
I find those all to be useful suggestions/critiques. This is why I like to post a preview before I get too into it so I can get some good feedback from a fresh perspective.
Yes I had some difficulty with the backside of that hand. I might just redo that part all together. I was trying to get the arm and hand (which were done in separate pieces) to blend properly and it wasn't quite working out with those two particular pieces.
Good suggestions with the shields. I will implement them. And I fully understand the concepts of line quality to which you were referring. I just sometimes overlook things like that when I get into my 'head down and plow forward' mode.
As I have worked at putting other pieces together I also noticed some other issues that need work. So I just need to make some adjustments and then I'll be ready to put together some more dudes.
Like I have said before, I still have much to learn to reach the level of some of the more experienced designers. Thank you all for your input. 
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cowboyleland
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #6 on Oct 6, 2010, 4:50pm » | |
My two cents would be that the red glow in the Shields suggests that they are watching a sunset. I'm not sure that is what you are going for. Making the right hand just a bit bigger or outlined a bit more strongly would probably straighten out that "problem" I think it is just a foreshortening issue. Nice work!
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labrat
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sammo
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #8 on Oct 7, 2010, 11:33pm » | |
These changes make it look way better...
Keep up the good work.
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Parduz
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #9 on Oct 8, 2010, 3:36am » | |
Great improvement!!!
Oct 7, 2010, 10:47pm, labrat wrote:| you are free to nitpick some more if you like. |
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OK! 
I'd make the whole left arm (and the shield back) darker: having the body on one side, the shoulder on the top and the shield on the other side, i can't see how the arm can take so much light (maybe with the exception of the elbow "tip").
(Oh, i'm really splitting hairs, here.... i like that guards )
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labrat
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #10 on Oct 8, 2010, 6:49am » | |
Dang you Parduz! You are right!
I guess I'd better fix that. It's an easy fix.
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Reivaj
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #11 on Oct 8, 2010, 7:20pm » | |
Labrat they are excelent . I love your style and let the minis still been "drawed" minis with their imperfections. If i wanted perfect minis i would do it with photos of people. Congratulations, Excelent work
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enpeze
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #12 on Oct 9, 2010, 6:09am » | |
I also love these foot soldiers. They are perfect as "standard" guys for this job. Just one thing. Would it be possible to include a Kite style shield too (a little bit bigger that the current small round shield)?
I dont dare to ask, but nice would also be a different heraldic motive (allowing to put different human armies against each other) and uniform colors but maybe this is too time consuming for you.
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labrat
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #13 on Oct 9, 2010, 7:33am » | |
Well for the final product when it is released we will probably do a layered pdf.
I can't say for sure right now. It will probably be difficult to do both colors and heraldry, because that would involve a ton of layers, but we would probably do the heraldry. Colors would be easier for anybody at home to change.
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nikloveland
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #14 on Oct 9, 2010, 8:37am » | |
Hmm... that is actually a very cool idea. Aaron and I hadn't talked that over but I'll see him tonight for games. We could do a different color AND heraldry. I don't think the different shield will come in this set (since that's a bit more to do), but I could see the red unit/blue unit/green unit each with different heraldry. That would only be three layers (+registration cut marks layer).
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enpeze
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #15 on Oct 9, 2010, 9:51am » | |
super to hear!
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sammo
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #16 on Oct 12, 2010, 6:06pm » | |
The critiques in this thread had me thinking today (and no my brain did not overheat  )
Everyone chimed in with good artistic advice and all in all the product will be better for it, but I also realized paper minis have to be appealing on at least two different levels.
People here (or your customers if you sell them) will get their first look at you mini as 5 or 6 inch image on a computer screen and so the artwork has to be appealing at that size. However the finished product (a printed assembled mini) is rather small (an inch or so) and when viewed from across the game table it needs to also look appealing.
It seems like in order to be a successful mini designer you have to find a way to split the difference.
Of course many people may have already come across this, but I am pretty new to the paper mini game and it was kind of a revelation for me as a novice designer.
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Parduz
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #17 on Oct 12, 2010, 6:52pm » | |
Oct 12, 2010, 6:06pm, sammo wrote:| It seems like in order to be a successful mini designer you have to find a way to split the difference. |
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My personal opinion is that this is not really true.
I think it is more similar to real miniature painting, where you have to exagerate some color contrast (like the black borders between armor pieces, or the light/shadow color in the "folds" of a cape) to give the illusion of depht.
Paper minis have no depth at all, but there's solid, old comic drawing tricks that can help to obtain the same illusion.
My personal "sight" of a paper minis is ruined by my myopia (it is not so string, so i use glasses only to drive and watch TV. Anyway my sight is not perfect) and so i know that when i see a paper mini "bulging" i'm looking at a good draw, and after a short analysis i know how the designer obtained the "bulge" effect.... which is usually using strong black lines and dark shadows.
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nikloveland
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #18 on Oct 13, 2010, 8:32am » | |
It's funny you should mention that Sammo. When Aaron and I talked about how to merge the Onemonk and Sanity Studios models together that came up. We discussed how Jim's models are created with the tabletop in mind while Aaron focuses on the close-up view. That's not to say Jim's can't look good close up and Aaron's can't look good far away. It is just the design perspective that is used. While designing figures, you can run yourself ragged trying to get the details just right and then they are never noticed on the tabletop (as Jim has told us many times). However, (and I'm talking for Aaron here since I can! ) there is a sense of satisfaction when something complex comes together and looks good on the screen. It could also be compared to a drawing background vs a gaming background. In both cases, the artist need to be... eh, artistic but they have distinct goals. Or at least view approaches.
Anyway, we are still working on the foot soldiers. Or should I say, I see all the dropbox updates from Aaron so I know he is workin' hard. Hopefully I'll get the finished art here soon and can then work on the layout.
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labrat
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #19 on Oct 13, 2010, 7:12pm » | |
Here is a final preview before these get released. When we set these guys loose in the paper mini world here is what you will get:
6 foot soldiers w/spears
12 foot soldiers w/swords
These will be available in 3 different colors, each color with different insignia (via layered pdf). So all in all you will be getting 54 different figures. Crazy I know.
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Parduz
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #20 on Oct 13, 2010, 7:54pm » | |
As always, great drawing and coloring.
I'm tempted to bore you again splitting hairs, but i've not the courage..... 
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nikloveland
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #21 on Oct 13, 2010, 8:14pm » | |
Lol. I'm afraid you will have to wait until Aaron starts the next set. I'm sure there will be much your insight could add to make it better. [More serious side note: We always welcome any suggestions. Please never hesitate to comment on things that could make something better. [Less serious side note inside the side note: It will just be handed off to the complaint department.]]
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WaffleM
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #22 on Oct 15, 2010, 6:20am » | |
Those are turning out to be some great looking minis! I can't wait to see more!
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labrat
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #23 on Oct 16, 2010, 8:25am » | |
Oct 13, 2010, 7:54pm, Parduz wrote:| I'm tempted to bore you again splitting hairs, but i've not the courage..... |
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I welcome your hair splitting. It's good for me. I have a lot of improvement to make, and a great deal to learn in the realm of paper miniature design and art in general. I am in the process of experimenting with different design methods to see what works the best for me, so I'm going through a bit of a learning curve at the moment. Hopefully it won't be too long til I get into the groove and can pump out some figures a little faster.
I don't mean to discourage constructive criticism. Sure it can be frustrating at times when you have spent a lot of time on something and you are ready to just be done and move on to the next thing, but It's still good to hear.
I bet I already know some of what you might have said about it anyways. The shading on the underside of the shield needs to be darker. And there are probably some areas where line quality could be better with thicker lines for things in front.
If I'm missing anything just spit it out. I need to learn what your critical eyes are cued into, so I can make it right before it's wrong.
I don't want One Monk Miniatures to skip a beat in it's quality for miniatures. Jim set a high bar, and we want Onemonk to remain as the place to go for paper minis.
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Parduz
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #24 on Oct 16, 2010, 10:39am » | |
Ok, you wanted it! 
1) Shoulders line: when you rise an arm you shoulder goes up as well, even if you don't want it. That's because thw way the "joint" and the shoulder muscle are made. So your soldier should have a "non horizontal" shoulder line, and i think that also the left arm need to be "traslated" a bit higher.
2) The sword is shown in "frontal view" (like the shields in the first post): it should follow the arm perspective.
3) The right foot tip should be better defined (with a black line and gradinent. Looking at the drawing as it was a miniature it seems to have a "pointed up" boot (that kind of arabial/indian shoes...)
4) The helmet seems bended... with that perspective, the left eye hole should be less wide than the right one... instead the left is wider.
5) Really a minor thing, the back of the right hand seems a bit off perspective... the wirst "end" should be really near the center of the sword handle, and the hand "lines" much shorter.
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labrat
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #25 on Oct 16, 2010, 9:34pm » | |
You are right about all of these things, and I attribute most of these flaws to the fact that all of the different pieces were done separately and then pieced together. I wanted to try that method for this group of figures, and it looks like I need to give the "pieces" more thought when doing them, on how they will work when put together.
I am trying a method with a bit less modularity in my next model set, the heavy foot soldiers, so hopefully that will work better without so many parts that aren't quite right. Thank you for your comments.
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josedominguez
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #26 on Oct 17, 2010, 5:12am » | |
The issues are tiny though..... these figures weren't made for viewing at full screen resolution, they are wargames minis.
It's the same when you paint a figure, even the best showcase model has 'flaws' that are visible when you blow up the photo.
Every sculpt has to sacrifice detail/scale in the transition from concept art to 3d model. Same thing here.
And as Parduz said, this is hair splitting, things you only notice if you really, really look for them.
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Reivaj
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #27 on Oct 17, 2010, 9:59am » | |
Oct 17, 2010, 5:12am, josedominguez wrote:The issues are tiny though..... these figures weren't made for viewing at full screen resolution, they are wargames minis.
It's the same when you paint a figure, even the best showcase model has 'flaws' that are visible when you blow up the photo.
Every sculpt has to sacrifice detail/scale in the transition from concept art to 3d model. Same thing here.
And as Parduz said, this is hair splitting, things you only notice if you really, really look for them.
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I´m agree with José but i didn´t know how to say it in english
THANKS José
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Parduz
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #28 on Oct 17, 2010, 10:33am » | |
Oct 17, 2010, 5:12am, josedominguez wrote:| The issues are tiny though..... |
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Sure they are!
Oct 17, 2010, 5:12am, josedominguez wrote:| these figures weren't made for viewing at full screen resolution, they are wargames minis. |
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I actually look at them on a flat screen, zoomed out to be real size.
Oct 17, 2010, 5:12am, josedominguez wrote:It's the same when you paint a figure, even the best showcase model has 'flaws' that are visible when you blow up the photo.
Every sculpt has to sacrifice detail/scale in the transition from concept art to 3d model. Same thing here. |
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Really true. The only advantage is that drawings may be corrected without too much hassle, while scupting and painting are much more "one shot" processes.
Oct 17, 2010, 5:12am, josedominguez wrote:And as Parduz said, this is hair splitting, things you only notice if you really, really look for them.
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Again true.
You know, i'm wandering around in this forum like a thief, grabbing a lot of cool figs, without drawing anything, and enjoying the chatter of all you other forum members.
My only skill (related to paper miniatures) i have is a smart (even if with myopia) eyesight: it may be my passion for comics, my "wannabe" efforts to draw comics (25 years ago) and minis (now), but my eyes catches something wrong even before my brain is able to guess what it is the cause. This happens with comics books, fantasy illustration... whatever trying to be "real" (so no, i don't see wrong perspective in Mickey Mouse comics ).
And so i tought that my way to contribute a bit in this forum is to point that glitches out.
Now this can be boring for who draws and even for who read the posts.... if even not irritating.
So (while i think you was not saying that, i'm even unsure of my understanding of english) if this is something that "hurts" the pleasure of reading this forum, just tell me and i'll shut up
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josedominguez
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| | Re: Foot Soldiers
« Reply #29 on Oct 17, 2010, 11:44am » | |
No, not at all
I was just emphasising what you had said earlier, that this was 'splitting hairs' and not huge criticism.
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