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Post by wyvern on Mar 10, 2020 2:27:46 GMT -9
I think it's got to be up to you Vermin King re the Zorro oxen. Flat minis seem more widely used than 3D ones, but I'd be OK with either! Isn't it irritating the milkmaid has proper back art and a 3D lower body though, compared to the Zorro front-only artwork?!
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 10, 2020 4:21:49 GMT -9
I have to admit, that the Zorro oxen can lead me to other things, so that has some appeal. I need to do the Aurochs and other near-modern creatures that I started a long while back. There's even a photo of a Tarpan, so that is fairly recent. Stonehenge has more Auroch bones in one place than just about anywhere. Julius Caesar once said that the Auroch was the only thing he feared. Even in the middle ages, Polish farmers would turn their cattle out with the Aurochs over the winter and round them up again in the spring. I really need to finish them
Doing reverse sides on the Verne prehistoric animals helped a lot with being able to generate animal reverse sides, so doing these could help me with the Aurochs, wisent and primitive horses.
And that old wheeze about needing other animals to pull carts and wagons could be helped out. When I was considering doing the Weston Wagon Shop (where the wagon trains lined up on Kansas Avenue to start the California, Santa Fe and Oregon Trail adventures), I read that close to 60% of the wagon teams were pulled by oxen (roughly the same percent of wagons Pre-Civil War that were built in that shop). 35% by horses and 5% by mules. Mules were used a lot by both militaries in the Civil War, so naturally more mules were used following the Civil War. But mules and oxen were better at foraging than horses, so you wouldn't have to pack grain to take with you.
I just think that it is time.
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 12, 2020 8:57:52 GMT -9
Started work on the Zorro oxen over lunch. Neither have borders, but the one on the left should be done for the actual figure. I think anatomy-wise he looks close enough. What I did on these is pull them out of that one page, re-size so that they are roughly armpit high at the shoulder, then used Shear to get their feet roughly even with the ground. I then adjusted the leg lengths so that they do reach the ground after adding tabs. Draw the red fold line above and copy and paste the work. Flip and then Rotate and line up the lines, which I usually do viewing at 400%. If the line perfectly lines up, the two sides should line up. I then go to work selecting portions of the forward side and adjust onto the backside legs so that they become front side legs, then add shadow to the former front legs so that they become far side legs. Now these are mirror images of the originals, but when I finish the second one, I will copy and flip them both so that there are four figures. At this point I haven't removed the slit line for the yoke. I think it isn't horribly noticeable, but I can do a front/back yoke from the set and the slit line might be handy. Opinions? EDIT --
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Post by wyvern on Mar 12, 2020 11:29:17 GMT -9
The line's a little distracting (but partly because I'm looking for it, I suspect). The alternative might be to indicate the cut line and its angle on the white card surrounding the oxen, though I'm not sure that would help.
I think I'd be inclined to remove the line from the oxen, simply because for anyone who doesn't want it, it'll be hard to conceal after the minis are printed out.
Looking great overall though!
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 12, 2020 14:10:13 GMT -9
I will lose the line 'by unanimous vote'. One out of one is unanimous, right?
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Post by squirmydad on Mar 12, 2020 14:14:19 GMT -9
I second losing the line.
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 13, 2020 4:32:26 GMT -9
Oooh! I was looking at the oxen and totally missed Zoro! He will probably get a back one day! I've been finding more of the pages from this set, and on one there is an illustration of Zorro on his horse, that looks like it is 2.5d. In the illustration it looks like there is the horse, Zorro who gets placed on the horse, and then the cape. I must admit, I would really like to see how they did it for the Punch Out Book.
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 13, 2020 8:15:32 GMT -9
I removed the lines and started doing the outlines, but noticed a bunch of thin spots. The checkerboard background of Gimp was showing through, and showing through where it looked like someone had a heavy hand with Brush. At least that's what it looked like, but the page looked like it was a rough scan in some aspects, so I'm not sure what is going on with it, but touched it up a bit. While doing that, I realized that if I were to do some recolors, it would be easier to do before the outlines. So here's where I got over lunch today. If anyone does use these, something tells me the four recolors might show up more than the original textures
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 13, 2020 11:51:54 GMT -9
Oooh! I was looking at the oxen and totally missed Zoro! He will probably get a back one day! I've been finding more of the pages from this set, and on one there is an illustration of Zorro on his horse, that looks like it is 2.5d. In the illustration it looks like there is the horse, Zorro who gets placed on the horse, and then the cape. I must admit, I would really like to see how they did it for the Punch Out Book. I was wrong. I should have remembered it from the Punch-Out Peter Pan I posted a while back. The figures are punched out of the cover...
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 13, 2020 13:53:48 GMT -9
One ox done, should get the other one done tonight.
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 13, 2020 16:51:47 GMT -9
Now what to have them pull. Wouldn't be appropriate for coaches, vardos or circus wagons ...
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Post by cowboyleland on Mar 13, 2020 18:20:32 GMT -9
Too bad there isn't a line to show where the yokes go.
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 13, 2020 19:16:10 GMT -9
From what I gather from photos of ox teams, the line was too high on the neck anyway. Because the yokes had slits, too, to slide into the slots on the oxen, the yokes were extremely deep. They are more realistically proportioned now. They should be about a third of the way from the shoulder to the back of the head.
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Post by wyvern on Mar 14, 2020 7:02:23 GMT -9
Actually, if you did one more recolour to give them bronze hooves and mouths, and had some fire coming from their mouths, they'd be perfect for the mythological bulls Jason had to tame at Colchis in the Argonautica - the Khalkotauri. Then all you'd need would be a bronze plough they could draw to plough the Field of Ares before sowing the Hydra's Teeth in it to sprout up as warriors (not described as skeletons in the Greek tales, but living warriors, though you'll have a hard job convincing anyone of that post-Harryhausen!). Oh, and a Jason mini, naturally !
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 14, 2020 7:11:42 GMT -9
Jason and the soldiers. It is fairly plain that my talents are more towards things other than figures. If someone could do those, I could do the recolors on the bulls and the bronze plow. It wouldn't seem to be all that difficult to convert it to a two-ox yoke. Is the plow blade bronze? Or the whole thing? Would that be the orange ones? Or which color? EDIT -- Any of my recolors, it looks like. Also, I had thought of doing a plow anyway from the Golden Funtime Book of Horses I've never added flame to anything like this, but I suppose I could give it a shot. I really planned on getting to my testbuild on the Cyberpunk Hybrid and do more work on the cycle tomorrow, though
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Post by squirmydad on Mar 14, 2020 8:33:43 GMT -9
Now what to have them pull. Wouldn't be appropriate for coaches, vardos or circus wagons ... Perhaps a royal taxi service? Hussite war wagon?
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 14, 2020 10:41:49 GMT -9
Ancient Greeks had several styles of plows. Do you have a preference on style?
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Post by wyvern on Mar 14, 2020 13:57:56 GMT -9
The plough is just vaguely described as being of bronze in the tales. The impression is that as the bulls were bigger than normal ones, the plough probably should be too, but that's about it. The Field of Ares was scattered with boulders up to huge size, and the ground had never been broken before (it was essentially an impossible task, after all), so I'd probably go with the most robust version the Ancient Greeks knew about.
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Post by cowboyleland on Mar 14, 2020 18:03:13 GMT -9
The Jason in the painting you posted would make a good figure, Vermin King. The play I was meant to start rehearsing has been cancelled in anticipation of a covid outbreak, so if you can link to the original image I can do a back for him.
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 14, 2020 18:53:39 GMT -9
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 15, 2020 6:21:11 GMT -9
The Jason in the painting you posted would make a good figure, Vermin King. The play I was meant to start rehearsing has been cancelled in anticipation of a covid outbreak, so if you can link to the original image I can do a back for him. Oo, ah. This is starting to sound like a spontaneous group project. I like those. As I see the bulls in my head, the bottom two are close to the image in the painting. I could add the brown blotch on the back of the tan one, but I think I won't. I'm not sure how much larger the Colchis Bulls should be, but I think 25% larger might be appropriate. Going to need large tabs. There seem to be several versions of this tale, but it seems that they are mouth-breathers when it comes to the fire. As they are to be put to the plow, I originally thought I would just show residual flame from the nostrils, but I stand corrected. In several images, there is more of a glowing heat like a forge surrounding the muzzles ( the bronze part) unlike the tongues of flame I originally pictured in my head. As the bulls were formed by Hephaestus, I think that is a good picture. I also wanted to give them glowing red eyes, but that isn't mentioned in what I've read, so I think I will not do that. Other images have a bristle of flame along the neck and end of the tale. Also not something I have read, so I won't do that. For the plow, I think I will do a version of this one I think I will Enlarge the share, though. I think I will go for bronze for the whole thing, though the share beam, earthboards, handle and pole are traditionally wood, but this is no ordinary plow Now bronze is interesting. Which example of bronze is best? My guess is that the last one would be most appropriate, but it would lose its appearance of being bronze at scale
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Mar 15, 2020 7:40:05 GMT -9
Everyday bronze just looks like brass or dull gold, they don't do any oxidation treatments to pretty it up. I would like to see both a wood-and-bronze version as well as the all-bronze version. Need them farm props and all that
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Post by wyvern on Mar 15, 2020 7:56:49 GMT -9
cowboyleland , if you need a larger image to work from for the Jason figure, I found this one on the RPGNet Forums. Google found one somewhat larger sized image of the painting, but it's very blurry, so probably useless for your needs here. Jason's not dressed in especially period-Greek fashion in this painting, but such is artistic licence I did quite a bit of research on the Greece to Colchis part of the Argonautica some years ago, and published on it five years back, so some extracts might be useful here. I drew on five main versions of the tale, Apollonius of Rhodes' Argonautica (abbreviated as "ApR" below; it dates probably from the late 3rd or early 2nd century BCE), Diodorus Siculus' Library of History (written between circa 60 to 30 BCE, though it doesn't feature in the relevant material here as he rationalised away the whole fire-breathing bulls episode), Valerius Flaccus' Argonautica ("VF"; who flourished between circa 70 to 90 CE), Apollodorus' Library ("Lib"; probably written around the 1st to 2nd centuries CE) and Hyginus' Fabulae ("Fab"; whose surviving form dates to between the 2nd to 5th centuries CE). These are the earliest surviving tales with the fullest details, though I also used two additional works, Pindar's Pythian Ode 4 ("PinP4"; an ode written to celebrate an athletic victory in 462 BCE) and the anonymously written Orphic Argonautica (again not referenced below, and dating from the 4th century CE or later). Jason isn't well-described in any of these sources. However, when he went to face the fire-breathing bulls, he was armed with an ash spear, and carried a shield and sword, and wore a bronze helmet (ApR III.1246-1283). In PinP4 232, he was described as throwing off his saffron-coloured cloak before starting to plough with the pair of fire-breathing bulls at Colchis, so it seems reasonable he was wearing it when he went to tame them (that would be yellow, not blue as shown in the painting, of course!) As for the bulls, they were a pair of living creatures whose feet and mouths were made of bronze, and which were able to breath fire from their mouths. In Apollonius' description (ApR III.1288-1305), the bulls lived in a hidden cavern beneath the earth, from which came murky smoke. When they appeared, they were also wreathed in flame and smoke, were mightily strong and had huge horns. The bulls were said to have been made by the god Hephaestus (ApR III.228-231), although Apollodorus' said instead they had been a gift to King Aeëtes of Colchis from Hephaestus, and, apart from their bronze hoofs and mouths, were otherwise simply wild bulls of enormous size (Lib I.IX.23). Their living nature seemed confirmed elsewhere, as when they were first seen in VF's retelling (VI.434-435) they were in the royal grazing fields. Their nostrils too seemed to have been of bronze, as Pindar's description had them tawny-red in colour (PinP4 225-226), while Hyginus (Fab 23) noted they breathed fire from their nostrils, not their mouths. There's no mention of their eyes in any of these sources. For the bronze colour Vermin King , I'd agree with your choice of the final one overall, but maybe bring up the golden colouring more, as it should be clear these are not normal bulls (aside from the fire-breathing element, that is!).
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 15, 2020 8:59:17 GMT -9
Dangit! My post was considered a forgery again and deleted. Well rather than type out my rationale again, here is where I am at. 'Wild bull' makes me think Auroch or Knossos bull, so they will get longer horns and eel stripes.
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 15, 2020 15:48:22 GMT -9
I do like the new horns, sort of. I like the shapes, but I haven't gotten the texture right. Otherwise, haven't gotten much of anything done today
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Post by cowboyleland on Mar 15, 2020 17:35:22 GMT -9
Thanks for the clearer painting Vermin King. I went looking for one but my google-fu failed me. I will see what I can do when I get him into gimp.
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Post by wyvern on Mar 16, 2020 6:35:03 GMT -9
The bigger horns do look more the part. Some modern commentators have tried to rationalise the Jason tale by invoking the aurochs, so moving in that direction is probably good (even if the rationalisation isn't altogether rational, as I'm guessing the aurochs didn't really breathe fire - Wikipedia is silent on this point...).
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 16, 2020 6:50:36 GMT -9
The bigger horns do look more the part. Some modern commentators have tried to rationalise the Jason tale by invoking the aurochs, so moving in that direction is probably good (even if the rationalisation isn't altogether rational, as I'm guessing the aurochs didn't really breathe fire - Wikipedia is silent on this point...). In today's era, I don't think we can really visualize that Aurochs were common back then, and that domestic cattle weren't as far removed from them as they are now. So I think it would be valid. I'm really thinking the fire-breathing part was from the Hephaestus mod. The horn length I chose is pretty much proportioned to the Auroch skulls. I think the Knossos bull images exagerate the horn length, but maybe not by much. Their culture may have been breeding them for longer horns as part of their bull-leaping activities. It's strange that I haven't really seen any articles on the bull skulls from there, though I have seen mention of there being skulls in the digs. Quite a few of them. I haven't found any photos of them however
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 16, 2020 16:32:21 GMT -9
A bit of a project bouncer tonight. Improved the bull horns, have a bit of progress on the Cybertruck Gallardo, and I think I have the Kawasaki Cyberbike closer.
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Post by wyvern on Mar 17, 2020 5:56:01 GMT -9
I've not really looked into the whole Cretan bull cult archaeology, but it indeed seems surprising there's so little about features like bull skulls, if well-preserved ones were found during the excavations there. A quick check of the Wikipedia Knossos page led me to the original archaeological reports by Sir Arthur Evans from the 1920s and 1930s, available online as PDFs, though they are of fearsome length (500-600+ pages each for volume II part II, and volume III, which I guessed might have most on the bulls). Paging through both those volumes, just looking out for bull-objects and artwork illustrations suggests that the horns shown weren't of fixed dimensions, whether in graphic or 3D art, as both longer and more modern-normal horn lengths were apparent. It's interesting that the Egyptian art showing Cretan embassies bearing bull-head gifts tends to prefer greater horn lengths, which might suggest these were the more prized/higher-status versions (which were also of course those shown involved in the human acrobatic displays). There seems little reason for the Egyptian artists to exaggerate such features, for instance. Whether these reflected real bull horn lengths is another matter, though one would imagine that might be so, probably through breeding, as you noted Vermin King. It's worth reflecting that there seems no great exaggeration in depictions of other animals in ancient Cretan art of the same period.
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