|
Post by Vermin King on May 24, 2020 6:33:19 GMT -9
I don't know why I can't seem to stay focused on anything lately (except yard work) I now have my images for Scottie's Ridgeline, but don't feel like dealing with the math I will pull up the Rialto Bridge, do a little, then close it out. Been researching possible topics for design, been finding old models that used to be in my collection, finding jpg's of models that are on my hard drive, but not overly obvious what they are by the file name, spent a lot of time this week looking at Automata, because I think models that can actually do things would be cool, and trying to find a new project that will not only be different, but something that may be useful to the community. After doing yardwork of my own yesterday, I helped a neighbor down the street with cleaning up their yard. Now, from my front porch, I can't see a neglected yard. This end of the street is looking good. Well, one of the boys who lives there asked if I had worked on any trucks lately. Since I saw the Kirin truck earlier, I thought maybe I should revisit it. To get it to the same height as Christopher Roe's 28mm Convoy, it needs to be scaled to 76.8%. One of the reasons that I thought of this was the way they reinforce the back of the wheels, somewhat similar to lightning's medium undercarriage on his hearse. It will need to have treads, and I am thinking of losing the bottle holder and making this a delivery truck with a box trailer. And turn the red on the cab to the Kirin Beer red. Or I could just turn the trailer into a full flat bed. Hmmm Another thought is to rescale some of the Canon mini-trucks to fit with this cab. We'll just have to see if this goes anywhere EDIT -- Well, those mini-trucks aren't really 'mini' so much as 'smaller'. In much of the world, they use truck platforms to fit the job. In the US, we would probably look at these as medium-duty commercial trucks, not the over-powered, bigger-than-they-need to be trucks we seem to desire. If you need a truck, you get the largest possible one to do the job without looking silly. I was looking at the Cement Mixer. To have its height the same as the Convoy trucks, it needs to be printed at 85%, but in a discussion with AirDave on another set of vehicles, he points out that to keep scale the same, you need to look at the wheels. Depending on era, wheels on similar vehicles are roughly the same size. Using this methodology, the Cement Mixer needs to be done at 75%. If I build it, I think I will use 75%
|
|
|
Post by oldschooldm on May 24, 2020 9:21:09 GMT -9
We are ALL familiar with the challenge of gaining, and keeping, focus. Especially when so much of what is going on in the world is beyond our personal control.
Hang in there guy... And know that we all have [virtual] closets full of unfinished things. Some of them right here on this forum..
[ahem.... popup steps set ... ahem]
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on May 24, 2020 10:16:43 GMT -9
And the octagonal Hagrid's Hut ... I have a new appreciation to those who do this as a business, who have the discipline to see the projects through. BTW, since I posted the mini-trucks from Canon, I think I might build the Cement Mixer, but I am repainting it, as well as reducing it. Now for a shocker. I mentioned looking at automata and wanting to add more movement to some models. The mixer has a revolving drum and the chute pivots. I wasn't expecting that. I almost feel like being distracted and see what other surprises they have in that set Not what I really consider to be automata. In my brain automata involves pushing a lever or turning a crank and watch other things happen. PaperPino and Rob Ives/Flying Pig are particularly good at these. One of Rob Ives' projects is the Canon mechanical elephant, creativepark.canon/en/contents/CNT-0010497/index.html . When you push down on his hips, his head raises and his trunk raises more. Gets me thinking of 'Push down on the bellows handle and flames rise', or 'push down on the dragon's hips and the head and neck extend or the wings flap', or 'push down on the step and the door behind you seals'. Matt Bergstrom's Haunted House is full of these, ghosts and psychos that rise, paintings that change, doors that open 'by themselves' I'd sure like to figure out some of that
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on May 25, 2020 15:11:35 GMT -9
I also want to figure out some of the Venetian work boats. In shep's thread, cardboard-warriors.proboards.com/thread/9893/new-passion-carnevale , I mentioned that there is a vacancy when it comes to these canal and lagoon work boats. Except in the regatta paintings, most of Canaletto's paintings show some of the different boats, and especially the one I would like to tackle. I had mentioned this painting by him in the other thread, pointing out different styles of boats. The one that really interests me is this one There are a bunch of them in this one A different artist also had them, but with more tent/awning things I like the width of this and the shallow draft. Looking at the different versions, they were normally sailed, with masts that can be stepped or unstepped readily, and on one version I saw four oarlocks, which I imagine was used when the sail was down. There are somewhat-raised upper decks on each end. One seems to be a deck for the crew to walk on, and the other seems to be used for cargo (several of them in the paintings have barrels on one end). The bulk of the storage was in the center section.
|
|
|
Post by Punkrabbitt on May 27, 2020 5:24:07 GMT -9
I would be very interested in the results of the boat project.
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on May 27, 2020 6:50:23 GMT -9
I am having a little issue with the front end of this. Going to have to be trial-and-error to try to get the curve. Also trying to determine the size. This would be considered a small ship or large boat. I think I am just going to make it large enough that major parts fill the page. The deck will have to be broken up, but that was expected from the beginning. I had thought I would try to do this similar to grendelsmother64's boats, but that might not be possible. His boats are so easy to build. The raised decks on each end should help. I don't want to have straight seams on the parts that join, so I am playing with a couple ways to handle that. But first, I am working on the little Canon Cement Mixer
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on May 29, 2020 3:35:55 GMT -9
Pump, cut parts, work on boat. Repeat
Had a little over 4 inches of rain Wednesday night and Thursday before 12:30 PM, so water in my basement. Last week the guys were supposed to come out and figure out why the plumbers five years ago by-passed my floor drain, but they got tied up. If my floor drain wasn't disconnected, this wouldn't be a big deal. Didn't realize what the other guys did until after they were out of business. I really don't like having to hire someone to fix the work someone else was paid to do.
Still trying to figure out how to get the work boat (It definitely isn't a Rascona. Unfortunate, since I really like being able to put a name to this) a large enough size. As is, it is bigger than a rowboat, but it cannot be confused with a small ship. Probably won't do much with it today because I have a bit of brain fuzz. Had to get up every two hours last night to pump water
|
|
|
Post by squirmydad on May 30, 2020 8:34:54 GMT -9
Sump pumps are $85 here, mine comes on constantly in Spring. Best of luck with your plumbing.
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on May 30, 2020 9:30:11 GMT -9
Well the water is almost gone. The ground water level had to get lower than the basement floor. Got up once last night to pump and probably didn't need to. Basement is mostly just damp now. I made some errors on my test build, and also see some things that need changing. At this point, it is a kitbash of grendelsmother64's Knarr. I wanted to keep at least one board across the middle, but forgot to account for the width of it when I did the outer skins. Oops. I do think I got closer to the curved ends than I thought I would accomplish. I had extra room on my pages, so I threw his mast on there. It needs to be narrower, and when I enlarge the other parts as much as I can, it will be the right height. In the picture above, the mast is the same length as the boat and the yard is 2/3 of that. What grendelsmother64 calls 'high decks' at the ends need to be taller and longer. As is they still need to be a bit longer with my changes to the geometry. The one at the bow should be about twice as tall. The one at the stern should be about 3/4 of the height to the rail. Most of the textures have been modified from the Knarr, which was a good exercise in itself. That sail is going to have to be huge, and I think after seeing it built, this could be considered a large boat/small ship. I really don't have a clue what the join between the mast and deck should look like. I am tempted to make a slightly smaller truncated stump of a mast for the mast to slide over. Any ideas?
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 1, 2020 8:37:59 GMT -9
For being unsuccessful, there is still a lot of success with this. The shape of the boat is good. The rail is higher at the ends than in the middle, and I think I got the break off points good as far as where they should be going the length of the boat. Even the break off points for the 'high decks' is where it should be. Besides the mast being too thick and the end decks not being tall enough, I think I may have some misinterpretation of what I am viewing. As mentioned above, I have seen these with the mast in the middle, but more often they are closer to the ends. Usually only one mast up, but I have seen paintings where the two masts are up, but sails down. Invariably, these boats (the ones with two masts/no sails) have the tents over the middle. In this photo, one thing I questioned is what is supporting the one end of the tent. Even the low end is slightly raised. And what is the wooden beam that sticks out of the far end? It hit me last night that they can raise and lower the masts so quickly because they lash to a permanent short mast in the middle of the edge of the raised end decks. That would mean the beam that sticks out could either be the end of the lowered mast or the yard, and the tent/awning is actually the sail. Maybe both sails. So, I started surgery, removing the thick mast. It didn't go well. I am trying to decide if I am going to remove the end decks or just cover them over. I think I should remove them so that I can test out my new idea on the end decks. We'll see.
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 2, 2020 5:26:10 GMT -9
Here are some of the views I am basing this on As I look through these, it doesn't look like true Lateen sails, I think these are at least half the time Dipping Lug sails. Over lunch I plan on making my lower deck to cover my surgery and get to work on the end decks
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 2, 2020 11:06:23 GMT -9
Over lunch I got my new deck overlay done and got rid of the cross board on the actual model pieces. Also fixed the gap in the outer skins. While I had those open, I went ahead and changed the inner and outer planking to be narrower, like it is shown in the paintings. Hopefully tonight I will be able to get to the end decks. On my masts, I think I am going to go with hexagonal to be rounder and good strength. Stronger if I stick some skewers in there. I don't know how many folks have built Lesack's Torii, but it has rope lashings around the parts. I am thinking that if I have a permanent loop at the base of the short masts, I can have another loop on the main masts to go over the top of the short masts. Then we come to the sails. I have yet to come up with a texture I like. Too course, too blurry, too clean or too dirty. At this point, I think I am leaning towards a monotone sail with shading to represent the waves in the material. I have no proof to justify my theory, but like the modern boat above, I intend to have sails that are not the same size. I guess Dave's Marauder is that way. Many of the Venetian ships were done that way
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 3, 2020 5:15:59 GMT -9
Well, yesterday morning, when I was taking my trash can back around to my back patio, the lady who lives two houses down stopped and asked me if I like tacos. She evidently works at a Mexican restaurant and at 7:30, she and her daughter dropped off five of the best tacos, three different sauces, lime wedges galore, and a gigantic bag of freshly prepared tortilla chips. It was wonderful.
I'll try to get back to things over lunch today.
Back to a little confusion on things. In my main photo, the one end has the raised deck that is clearly somewhat arched, and in the main photo of the painting the front end of another boat also shows this, but they have barrels on both at the other end. I am not sure how one would secure a round barrel on its side on an arched deck. I played around trying to do that arch last night, but I have decided not to proceed that way.
Another thing that I find interesting is that some show a rudder, though most do not. The clearest view of this is in the image at the bottom left in the compilation image. It seems in this painting and a couple others that the hull dips immediately near the keel board where it extends above the hull. A 'V' shape. The rudder appears to slide over the keel board, suspended by a rope that fits snuggly into that 'V'. Rather ingenious. Also, what I was taking as oarlocks are probably the brackets to hold the rigging for the sails. That isn't to say that when the sails are down, they couldn't be used as oarlocks. Multi-taskers.
I can see why so many modelers do boats. There is always some new surprise to discover
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 3, 2020 7:50:59 GMT -9
Did a substantial amount of measuring, checking, adjusting, re-measuring, re-checking, but until I remove the old decks and test it, it is a fairly concrete guess, but still a guess. Numbers wise it should be correct, but it is only when you build it that you know. As far as mast height, I am just going to use the rough guide from above, making the tall mast the length of the boat. The second mast will be 75% of that height and the short permanent masts will be 2 inches tall. For the sails, I am looking for a decent view of a reasonable full sail in paintings to base it on, but I am not having great luck. The ones showing more complete sails (that I have found anyway) are too small. I'm not to that point anyway. I'll hunt some more tonight. I should have time at lunch today to try removing the decks from my test build.
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 3, 2020 15:20:16 GMT -9
Dry fitting looks good. A little bit of luck involved. I left the tabs on while I was adjusting lengths and widths on the end decks, thinking I would adjust the tabs after checking fit. The only thing that needed to be changed was at the points. Purely by luck, the tabs on the upright portion are at just the right angle for positioning the decks. Have to do a bit of bookkeeping, but should get these in place tonight. I also waded through a bunch of photos of Indian Ocean boats, so I have a number of prospects to use as the basis of the sails. Once the decks are glued in, I will have to work on the 'V' and check the height of the keel board extensions. As is, they may be too tall to add the rudder EDIT -- Works, but a tweak is necessary. Width was based on the vertical wall being at the edge of the flooring, but the flat part of the deck did not lie the way I expected, so it sticks out too far, which pulls the sides of the boat in too much. Shortening the deck by 1/8 of an inch would be better. Adjusted the file, but I don't think I will get to the other stuff tonight. There's always tomorrow
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 4, 2020 6:59:29 GMT -9
Over lunch today I shortened the keel board extensions and started work on the curved notches. I have the notches done on the inner parts, but still have to develop the curved rail for the outer gunwales. I don't know if a work page would help anyone, but here is the piece before I erase it that I used to do the curved rail at the top. Copied, pasted, aligned, so that all four parts are the same. Now, I will have to take a rail strip from the outside and build a jig for the outside gunwales. When I finish that, I will get the rudder out of the way and move on to the masts and sails. Since I am making significant changes to things, I will need to do a test build on the new version. I think I will do it with both sails up, and this test build will have one mast up and the tent
|
|
|
Post by okumarts on Jun 4, 2020 9:35:25 GMT -9
Oh, this is great! I need to make more boats! Dry fitting looks good. A little bit of luck involved. I left the tabs on while I was adjusting lengths and widths on the end decks, thinking I would adjust the tabs after checking fit. The only thing that needed to be changed was at the points. Purely by luck, the tabs on the upright portion are at just the right angle for positioning the decks. Have to do a bit of bookkeeping, but should get these in place tonight. I also waded through a bunch of photos of Indian Ocean boats, so I have a number of prospects to use as the basis of the sails. Once the decks are glued in, I will have to work on the 'V' and check the height of the keel board extensions. As is, they may be too tall to add the rudder EDIT -- Works, but a tweak is necessary. Width was based on the vertical wall being at the edge of the flooring, but the flat part of the deck did not lie the way I expected, so it sticks out too far, which pulls the sides of the boat in too much. Shortening the deck by 1/8 of an inch would be better. Adjusted the file, but I don't think I will get to the other stuff tonight. There's always tomorrow
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 4, 2020 10:49:50 GMT -9
Yes!!! I needed a positive word. The last two hours of work has been the worst I have had in months, if not years. Today's word is STUPID. The inside marketer at one of my favorite companies definitely had her stupid hat on today. I was unable to get onto a webinar. A former agent who was coming back, isn't coming back. My mom is frazzled because the IRS cashed her $1746 check for only $1046 (evidently they don't cash checks, they enter them in the computers who then electronically withdraw funds). Aargh! So, for the last 15 minutes, I generated my notches for the outer gunwales and was setting up to work on the rudder, only, there is a problem. Due to the wonky curves, how does one figure geometrically the angle of the keel board vs the waterline? I gave up. I took my test build and lined up the bottom of the boat with a grid line and rotated the keel board on the screen until things lined up. It should be close enough since the rudder loops over the keel board, not fixed to hinges, mine will be done similarly. I better show what I mean The rope goes through a hole in the rudder and comes up around the keel board supported by the notches in the sides. If I have the ropes as part of the sides, extending up to the bottom of the notch, the rudder will just slide over the keel board and gravity will do the work. If I have the geometry close to being right, gravity should also cause the bottom of the rudder sit flat against the water tile. That is, it should unless like everything else this afternoon, it is screwed up
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 4, 2020 19:26:19 GMT -9
Didn't have much time tonight, but got the rudder done. I tried two different ways to estimate whether it is 'correct', and it checks out. It might be too new looking, but I think I am going to build it this way for the next test build. I think I am going to do the masts and yards in this texture, also EDIT -- The boat is 11 inches long, so the masts should be 11 inches tall. As the cutter-friendly template is barely over 11 inches diagonally, I am going to have to make them shorter. The tall sail cannot fit in the cutter-friendly area if I were to scale it to an 11 inch tall mast, so everything is going to be a little shorter. If I do narrow hexagonal masts (so I can fill them with skewers), putting two masts on the same page (along with the two short masts), I don't think they can be more than 9 inches tall, and that would still require them to be diagonal on the page. To have the sails proportional to the masts (and still fit on a page), they may have to be shorter. I don't think most of us landlubbers would see the reduced size as being wrong.
|
|
shep
Eternal Member
Red Alert! Shields up! LENS FLARE!!!
Posts: 1,260
|
Post by shep on Jun 5, 2020 0:41:27 GMT -9
I like how this boat is coming along, and by coincidence it will have the perfect size for a scenario idea that I have for Caenevale... I bow to your intuition...
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 5, 2020 3:52:30 GMT -9
I'm sorry that the Rialto Bridge stalled, but I still think that these work boats would be common, especially in the lagoon and on the Grand Canal. Not as common as the gondolas in number, but looking at capacity, except when they had regattas, the total capacity of these on the canal would be roughly the same as the total capacity of the gondolas on the canal. They were common enough that they were included in a lot of paintings.
What I am saying is that these needed to be done. I really wish I knew the name for these. It's strange that there are plans for the Ràscona out there, and it is mentioned in nautical forums, yet these boats which seem to be much more common in the old paintings outnumber the Ràscona's by about 5 to 1 in a quick survey of the paintings I have on my hard drive. I would sure like to know what these were called.
And I shouldn't have worked so late last night. When I got done with the rudder, I cleared my work page. It had my texture for the masts and yards...
|
|
shep
Eternal Member
Red Alert! Shields up! LENS FLARE!!!
Posts: 1,260
|
Post by shep on Jun 5, 2020 4:15:23 GMT -9
I'm sorry that the Rialto Bridge stalled Nah, that's no problem. I couldn't field it at the moment, anyway, since I have only 2 x 2 ft. of playing space on the kitchen table, right now. Perhaps these smaller cargo boats are just not pretty enough for a general interest in them? I don't know... Oh noes!!!
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 5, 2020 5:06:06 GMT -9
Not that big a deal. I've already pulled up the image that I sampled to get the texture for the rudder. Just need to make a sheet of it. And save it!
I still want to do a Gondola da Traghetto, the mass transit version of the gondola, and since most of the traditional gondolas (in the paintings) have a cover over the passenger area, I want to make some covers for your gondola
EDIT --
Since you will probably be the first person other than me to build this, do you have a picture of what kind of sail you would want? In the paintings, white is predominant, but there are also reddish-brown sails and striped sails- blue/white and red/white. I have three dhou sails that I want to look at for the basis of my sails, and it is getting close to the time to actually work on them.
EDIT #2 --
I also want to make a couple of the tubs that I have seen on a few of these. There are enough barrels out there already, if you want to put one or two on the end of one of these.
I really wonder what they would have carried in those tubs. I've seen three or four paintings with the tubs in a boat, so they evidently weren't rare, but they wouldn't be easy to empty. I thought maybe fish originally, since they are mostly at places known for fish markets, but how the heck would they empty them. I don't see any cranes in the paintings. If I do the tubs, maybe I should leave them empty
|
|
shep
Eternal Member
Red Alert! Shields up! LENS FLARE!!!
Posts: 1,260
|
Post by shep on Jun 5, 2020 7:18:38 GMT -9
I think white or natural linen sails would be best, as they leave open, if the boat in the next game is the same as before or not... With the tubs, I could see them be used for fish. They would put a net in, first, fill with water, then put in the fisch they pull out of the water. Once the tub is full, they close the net in the tub, trapping the fish inside, and when at the market, they simply pull out the net and empty the water out of the tub with a bucket... Or, they could put in a sail, fill with grain, and close the sail around it. Perhaps the tubs had a specific size, so that a sail full of grain would always weigh the same. Or a specific volume that would in the end dictate the price, like 15 or 20 what was the coin for a tub full of vegetables, or something like that... But most likely it was to keep fish fresh in water... Oh, and I have a bag full of small wooden barrels that I can put on the boat...
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 5, 2020 8:37:53 GMT -9
I was leaning toward plain sails myself. In the paintings, when they show sails, the white sails are well over half of the ones represented on my hard drive. Probably close to 75%. But I wanted them to look used, not super clean. When I do the tubs, I found this photo that I wanted to use as a cap that fits into the tubs Over lunch I worked on the masts. In order to have my rope loops, which still have to be designed, on the same page as the masts, my masts can only be 8.75 inches tall. Then cap them off with the hexagons. When I work on things late at night, I almost always check over things the next day. Eh, I go back and look at things I do most times. Well, when I went over the rudder, I realized I forgot to put the second rope loop on there. So, I fixed it, too. EDIT -- And I not only lost my wood texture when I closed things out last night. I didn't keep my rope... I have the lengths worked out, but since these wrap around pieces, needing to be able to slip on and off, I am taking a guess that they need to be about 4% longer. Another reason why a second test build is absolutely necessary, not just a nicety EDIT #2 -- I now have the rope loops. I also was looking at the short masts and increased their height by 1/2 an inch. Time to work on sails
|
|
shep
Eternal Member
Red Alert! Shields up! LENS FLARE!!!
Posts: 1,260
|
Post by shep on Jun 5, 2020 13:45:39 GMT -9
That pic up there looks somewhat fishy...
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 5, 2020 15:16:31 GMT -9
Do these need to be whiter? I have to add the yard onto the reverse and then bring over the exposed portions to the front. Not sure if I will get to it tonight or not
|
|
|
Post by grendelsmother64 on Jun 5, 2020 16:53:47 GMT -9
Dry fitting looks good. A little bit of luck involved. I left the tabs on while I was adjusting lengths and widths on the end decks, thinking I would adjust the tabs after checking fit. The only thing that needed to be changed was at the points. Purely by luck, the tabs on the upright portion are at just the right angle for positioning the decks. Have to do a bit of bookkeeping, but should get these in place tonight. I also waded through a bunch of photos of Indian Ocean boats, so I have a number of prospects to use as the basis of the sails. Once the decks are glued in, I will have to work on the 'V' and check the height of the keel board extensions. As is, they may be too tall to add the rudder EDIT -- Works, but a tweak is necessary. Width was based on the vertical wall being at the edge of the flooring, but the flat part of the deck did not lie the way I expected, so it sticks out too far, which pulls the sides of the boat in too much. Shortening the deck by 1/8 of an inch would be better. Adjusted the file, but I don't think I will get to the other stuff tonight. There's always tomorrow Nice work. Love what you've done with the place. Use GM64 in the credit thanks. Shawn.
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 5, 2020 17:20:09 GMT -9
Thank you, sir. I tried designing from scratch following your build method, but switched over
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 5, 2020 19:01:32 GMT -9
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner. I was looking for old paintings showing 18th century Venetian boatmen and dock workers, when I saw reference to the Bragòsso, the most common fishing boat of the north and central Adriatic. Often used as a local freighter. Nine to sixteen meters long, fitted with two masts rigged with lugsails. The removable 'sea rudders' were quite long, acting as a fin keel. I felt a bit leery of basing my boat off artists' conceptions, but their depictions were fairly accurate. And my assumptions based on the paintings turned out to be fact, not fiction And the Bragòsso has a name! During the 19th century, they started giving them square(r) sterns and the rudders were fitted over long pins
|
|