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Post by Vermin King on Nov 24, 2020 17:17:50 GMT -9
monstersbtm, Dario, took a trip to Venice and took some inspiring photos This one in particular caught my eye Set to work tonight getting it ready to be one side of a building This just seemed to be a perfect example of Venetian back alleys and courts. There are two buildings near San Zandegolo that I think could be great for the other three sides
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Post by monstersbtm on Nov 25, 2020 9:02:15 GMT -9
If you wish to take a better look, that sotoportego is on Google Street view. It's easier to spot if you search for chiesa di San Leonardo. Keep the good stuff flowing! 😊😊😊
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Post by Vermin King on Nov 25, 2020 9:42:37 GMT -9
As I see this one coming together, I think I will do the sotoportego like the more utilitarian looking canal-side sotoportego near la Fenice. Very plain one. So the building could be placed next to a canal, or you could have it between two buildings and still not look odd.
Thanks again for those photos.
BTW, I removed almost all of the 'modern' stuff from the building, but left the Sotoportego sign and the flower boxes. Do you think I should remove them?
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Post by monstersbtm on Nov 26, 2020 5:16:56 GMT -9
No no, don't erase them. I don't know if they are historically accurate but are so.. Venetian? 🤣
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Post by Vermin King on Nov 27, 2020 9:54:37 GMT -9
That's why I left them on my first pass
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Post by Vermin King on Nov 29, 2020 17:13:07 GMT -9
I misinterpreted the original photo. As you may know, so many of the Calles are extremely narrow. I interpreted the photo as this building abutting the building in front of it, but they do not abut. The sortoportego is actually one end of a longer building, but I am going to proceed as I started. I want the passage to be able to abut another building or be open to a canal, depending on the user's preference. An ornate sortoportego against another building would be strange. I have two options -- removeable ornamentation or more utilitarian. Another photo by Dario shows the utilitarian version, which I think would still look fine as supports next to a building. When doing the Google Street walk, I found the plaque above the sortoportego on the other end. I flipped the front and replaced the sign with the plaque. I am looking for a suitable door for the back still
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Post by Vermin King on Nov 30, 2020 17:15:23 GMT -9
I found a much more utilitarian version. And no, I won't use the wall underneath The two main buildings I want to merge are the two buildings at the southwest corner of campo san zandegola
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Post by monstersbtm on Dec 2, 2020 11:15:57 GMT -9
I would go with the utilitarian version. It's simply more versatile and, since it's designed with gaming purposes in mind, more suitable for gaming. I would see an ornate sotoportego more appropriate for a palazzo or just an house alongside a canal (since canals were the main streets of Venice, at least for important people, it's totally OK to see a more elaborate look on the side facing canals). Vk, you are doing great!
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 2, 2020 14:12:38 GMT -9
Progress report. Not a lot of time for anything more for a few more days. I rearranged shutters and brickwork on the back (p2) and swapped out the door and lower window entirely. Not done with third side yet, but getting close
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 17, 2020 7:30:19 GMT -9
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 17, 2020 14:17:39 GMT -9
Third side looks a lot better with the roofline and drain-pipe Still trying to decide how much lightening and enhancement the texture needs. It's not a well-kept building, so grungy applies, but it seems a bit dark
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Post by squirmydad on Dec 17, 2020 16:47:39 GMT -9
I'm surprised you're not going with this section, I love all of those arched-framed windows.
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 17, 2020 17:20:14 GMT -9
On the fourth side will be a sotoportego (building over a passage). The framework of the passage is going to be done 'utilitarian' so that it won't look odd if the builder puts it against another building. If it abuts a canal, though, I had planned on using this (or something similar) above the passage. Since there were a lot more canals back then, and the canals were the main streets, I think that they tended to make the canal front the best looking sides of the building, unless the building was also on a campo or corte. The streets back then, except for the main thoroughfares, tended to be like alleys today. Deliveries, trash pick up, etc. Streets were for servants
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Post by monstersbtm on Dec 18, 2020 10:58:35 GMT -9
Vk tells the truth : many palazzi have their best facades on the canal side since it was the side of the building where important guests would arrive. This project seems to be about more humble houses, so a "cruder" style is totally fitting. I cannot tell how old that building can be unfortunately.
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 18, 2020 13:30:10 GMT -9
I found a 1907 photo of the campo and the building was there then, and didn't look new. In the same set was a photo of San Zan. It looked quite a bit different back then. Hmmm. I saved the church photo, but not the others monstersbtm, being more familiar with the place than the rest of us, probably has the same question that I do. Was the building currently in front of the church there in 1907? If so, was it added onto since then? Trying to get a view of the complete front is difficult, and even then you don't see as much of the roof of the building behind the church. I may have misguided gothique about the chimney placement. This is actually the only painting or photo where I have seen that style of firebox on the ground floor. Odd
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Post by gothique on Dec 19, 2020 1:42:55 GMT -9
I may have misguided gothique about the chimney placement. This is actually the only painting or photo where I have seen that style of firebox on the ground floor. Odd Your comments about the chimney make a lot of sense and the building looks better with the chimney at that height That chimney has given me an idea for my next Back Alleys house. I was planning to fancy up a lower class house to suggest an upwardly mobile merchant trying to impress his wealthier clients. Placing a fancy fireplace in the reception rooms on the business floor, with a slight mod to suggest something less impressive in the family rooms, may fit the story.
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 19, 2020 6:35:36 GMT -9
Darn it. I have spent the morning looking for the posts I shared with shep about Ca d'Oro. Not in the posts, so I thought it might be in messaging. Nope. Must have been by email. If so, they are long gone. I might still have the images around. Based on the history of Ca d'Oro, the ground floor was used for business. Off the loggia was a fairly large hall with a hallway that leads to the back. Off these were an office, clerk offices and storage. Family was on the next floor up and the front of the top floor. Servants on the top floor at the back. As these rooms were stiflingly hot in the summer and cold in the winter, servants in the attic was fairly common. I guess what I am trying to say is that your mod description sounds feasible.
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 19, 2020 21:05:51 GMT -9
As I could not get an appointment for an oil change, I got lazy today. So many things that could have been done, but I decided early that it had been a very long time since I just wasted a day. During the football game tonight, I decided I ought to at least work on the sotoportego portion of the building. Earlier this week, I had looked at more examples of canal-side sotoportego's. They all were either too nice for this building or too beat up or had round columns. I had about decided just to use the ones around the Rialto Market, without the arches, when I had some inspiration. The columns would match if I used the ones from the front and back of the building. Many of these have a curb between the columns or iron railings, so I did a curb on the end sections, leaving the center to be the landing to enter the building. Ignore the walls above. I did do some work on the roofline to lose the drain pipe in preparation for new textures. The building wall under the sotoportego will be stucco. Between buildings, those walls are often just brick, but sometimes they are stucco, especially if there are shops or cafe's on the other side of the wall. As the building can be canal-side, also, I don't want to leave it as just brick. Having a bit of trouble deciding on whether I want it to be symmetric above. Symmetry didn't seem to be a prized feature back then. I was also tempted to make an allowance to use the balcony I designed for monstersbtm. As the ground floor is divided into three sections, I was trying to decide on whether to do the upper floors in three sections or as two sections, one being twice the length of the other. I'll get it figured out ... hopefully soon I do think I have the design worked out for the passageway and tab placement. Similar to squirmydad's apartment block, one would attach the front and back pieces to this side and build from there. The inner passage gets glued to the front portion before building it. Close up the rectangular tube and then glue the front and back to the tabs on the passage. It will make more sense once I actually take build photos
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Post by monstersbtm on Dec 20, 2020 0:16:43 GMT -9
Hi vk! Nice progress on your project. Regarding San zan degolà: you found a quite rare photo of the campo I think! Till now I was unable to find it, so nice catch indeed. I did some research but unfortunately I didn't find when the front windows were closed to open again the rose window. Only bit of info I found was the last restoration, in 1994, but usually recent restorations tended to avoid modifications to the existing structures. I guess the rose window was restored in '20/'30, during fascism they had a very different philosophy about that kind of works. Guessing when the building in front of the church was raised is very hard for me. I'm not an architect so I cannot judge elements like styles to guess the time of construction. The only way to know exactly when it was built should be by consulting the municipality records but it's not a free process and cannot be done without an interest on it (buy, sell, restorations...) as far as I know.
With regard to your sotoportego project, so far it seems to be very solid. My only "concern" is about the texture of the 2nd floor, just above the sotoportego. Usually stucco degradates at the 1st floor, the closest to the water. When it comes away from upper floors it usually do so in patches, since little portions of it comes away. I don't know if is possible to alter the texture of the building, since it is basically a photograph. If not, just ignore my comment, it's a great work anyway 😊
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 20, 2020 5:38:23 GMT -9
I actually just used the opposite side as a template. That way I can be sure that the dimensions are the same.
I already plastered over the other textures. Before I decide on windows on this, I am going to design the passage today.
EDIT --
Rather a time-consuming process, but building the sotoportego ceiling is important, even if it will rarely be seen. I am one of those people that feels good when I know a detail is there when I build something, even if it will probably not be seen except when this is used along a canal.
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 20, 2020 10:05:58 GMT -9
Well, to be cutter-friendly, the passage will have to be divided onto two pages. Not sure if I want to go with a three-sided piece and a single-side piece, or if I want to do two two-siders. But here is where I am at I really hadn't planned on this being a show-piece project, but I am already up to six pages without starting the roof, yet, which will be two pages. If I do a three-sided piece on the passage, the remaining piece could fit on the page with the balcony and assorted goodies, maybe. Only if I do the three-sided piece, it should include the pavement, not the ceiling. The ceiling should be separate so that joins will not be as obvious. EDIT -- Took longer to rearrange things without messing things up than it took to build the original files. Well, rearranging and double-checking before moving on to the next step Now I have to find the right windows and doors
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 20, 2020 17:58:51 GMT -9
I'm surprised you're not going with this section, I love all of those arched-framed windows. I love the ornate frames, but the ones I like most are probably too nice for this building. With square windows and door frames on three sides, I am trying to hit nicer, but not too nice. I think I will end up with something along these lines
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 22, 2020 12:28:21 GMT -9
Well, I was going to unveil the entire canal-front at the same time, but I'm not sure when that will be, so here is the inside of the passage. I have amassed a large number of round-topped with capstone windows, so hopefully I can get the page 4 part done tomorrow night EDIT -- Or this afternoon. I want to get to working on the roof before I head out of town. I probably should have made the windows smaller, but I am rather pleased with turning the window into a double window. I still have my window-less version, so I might play with it I still like the triple windows seen on many of the buildings, so I might change the doubles into triples and make them all smaller. If I do that, I will make the lower set of windows longer below the arch, but keep them narrower. But now that I have a set done, I can take some time for tweaking. My thought is that I would really like that balcony under a set of triple windows. The windows at this size are almost door height, so I want them smaller, especially on the servant level
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 22, 2020 17:33:51 GMT -9
Yes, I do believe I like Option B better I have been noticing that there are a lot of fake balconies in Venice. Railings that look like balconies along the bottoms of the windows. If you just want to cut out the balcony front and glue it to the bottom part of the tall windows, that would be cool, too. I think they have those to keep kids from falling out the windows. That or drunks...
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 22, 2020 20:24:38 GMT -9
Building my roof texture is tedious. I ended up taking a photo of a roof that was almost a dead-on shot and got it tweaked to fairly square. Only I had to take some of the lines of tiles separately and square them up. Then grab individual tiles and lay them over where my pattern didn't line up. I think I will just make a sheet of it so that I can use it for any sized roof. I didn't realize how crooked the lines are.
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 23, 2020 9:06:38 GMT -9
This might be helpful for someone, so I think I will show my process for generating the roof texture sheet. After enhancing and cartoonizing and adjusting some of the color, I lay my starting texture on a new sheet. I then start digitally sampling lines of tiles and build things out. If I had started with nice pretty uniform modern tile, I could have grabbed whole sections rather than strips, but the point of the old tile is that it isn't uniform, and it shows age and some deterioration, and that is pretty, too. In the image above, in spite of my efforts to merge things, it is obvious that I basically laid out the same image in a 2 X 2 grid. In the course of laying down strips, I have attempted to get rid of some of that while building the texture map outwards
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Post by monstersbtm on Dec 23, 2020 15:02:59 GMT -9
Great update. In the end, how big do you plan it will be?
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 23, 2020 16:10:33 GMT -9
Not extremely large. I probably should have decided on a size before I got working on this, but I started with your photo, squaring things up, then scaled it based on the door being 1.5 inches tall, then adjusted the size of the whole thing to the next largest grid line. I work in Gimp at 300 dpi, and set my grids at 75 dpi (1/4 inch). That made the front 6.25 inches by 6.75 inches tall (excluding the roof). Then I took that other building photo and scaled it so that the roof is 6.75 inches tall. As luck would have it, that makes the wall 6.25 inches long. A square building in Venice? Of course it will not seem as square because of the sotoportego. Dealing with phone and internet issues today, I just felt like doing that roof texture. I think I will get some mileage out of it
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Dec 23, 2020 18:42:13 GMT -9
Ermmm... wow. Just wow.
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 23, 2020 20:55:46 GMT -9
I know oldschooldm would disagree, but I have been spending too much time contemplating how to make this fold-flat. It is feasible if one doesn't attach the extremely solid balcony. Frankly, glennwilliams's Back Alley roof that would slide over the top and hold things square would make it 'nearly' fold-flat. Since Glenn has gotten several kudos on the Back Alley roofs for having a low enough slope to allow the roofs to be easily playable space, and since I like what that style roof allows for storability, tonight I worked on a set of roofs with the low pitch. As the building is square, and the sides are fairly long, I will have it divided onto two pages. Actually, one page printed twice. On terracotta roofs, there is a line of tiles that goes over the edges and along the crown. I am trying to work out a way to have this without having to do overlaying strips. On the other hand, monstersbtm mentioned altanes/altana, the Venetian answer to a rooftop garden. A steeper roof would make having an altana more reasonable. But with a steeper roof, I will only be able to fit one roof face per page, so the roof would be four pages. Some of the altana parts could fit in the extra space. Since I still haven't replaced my printer, I have time to work it out.
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