scrolls
Initiate
Goose time HONK!
Posts: 23
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Post by scrolls on May 19, 2011 9:38:32 GMT -9
Greetings to everyone! I'm new here, and to forums in general actually. (it's silly but I feel kinda nervous haha!) I've been playing D&D for a few years, and I'd have to say my experience of it has been enhanced quite a bit through my DM's use of the paper minis from one monk and environments from fat dragon games. So, I was inspired to try making my own! I very much enjoyed it and I hope to continue and maybe get to the point where I can sell my miniature artwork. I'd love to share some examples of my work with you guys, and to hear some opinions: 1. i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc401/scr0lls/orc_plokkthar.jpg This is a mini I made of one of my favorite character's I ever roleplayed, Plokkthar the orc barbarian. For being an orc and a barbarian, he wasn't actually all that barbaric. 2. i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc401/scr0lls/tiefling_kemet.jpg A mini I made for my friend's teiflilng character Kemet, which he roleplayed alongside Plokkthar. Kemet and Plokkthar had a delightful rivalry going on. 3. i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc401/scr0lls/human_finnigan.jpg I made this one after the character I roleplay currently. Finnigan started off as being a cheap knockoff of Flynn Rider (HE'S AWESOME OK) but ended up being a really fun character with his own (special) personality. 4. i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc401/scr0lls/halfling_books.jpg Here's a random halfling I made who is carrying a ton of books. 5. i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc401/scr0lls/dwarf_keg.jpg And a random dwarf! He apparently likes beer and meat. So my plan was to make both custom commissioned paper miniatures of peoples' beloved RPG characters like the first three examples, and perhaps make sets of NPC characters such as the last two. I have about 20 more NPC mini's on the way. I'm so excited to be making these minis and I sincerely hope people like them so I can continue creating them. Thanks so much for taking a look Yours Truly, Scrolls :3
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Post by okumarts on May 19, 2011 10:30:08 GMT -9
The miniatures are amazing! Great work! I particularly like the clean line work and wonderful sense of personality you put into each character. They are truly characters. I think my only advice would be to use a black border around them, but that's mostly a personal aesthetic issue. I would definitely buy these if only to encourage you to keep making them. It's hard work though. So make sure it's stuff you really love to do (or need to do). P.S. welcome to the forums!
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scrolls
Initiate
Goose time HONK!
Posts: 23
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Post by scrolls on May 19, 2011 10:42:37 GMT -9
Thank you I like the white borders myself, even if just for the reason that more detail can be seen in the outline, but I noticed most minis have a black border. Perhaps I'll make two versions of each mini: one with a white and one with a black border, just so I don't have to choose haha But I do love making these, I've been having a lot of fun with it so far. It's entertaining to put the personality into the mini. I was also thinking of doing ridiculous one-off characters (that probably no one would probably really want to buy) such as a shardmind bard who has harpstrings attached from his arm to his torso and he plays his beautiful (or maybe sub-par) music on them. Ridiculous, but great fun. Maybe DMs could even use them as comic relief or something, I dunno! Anyways, I just have all these ideas and I love to create, One day I hope to have a career in which I can be creative all day
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Post by gilius on May 19, 2011 13:06:50 GMT -9
Wow, beautiful line art and shading! Personally I've come to like white borders on 15-20mm miniatures to help distinguishing them on the table and so that they don't look so dark. For 25-28mm that's not so much of a problem and a thick black border seems to give them more depth, in my opinion.
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Post by nikloveland on May 19, 2011 13:39:07 GMT -9
Welcome to the forum and congrats on some good first attempts at paper minis!
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Post by Adam Souza on May 19, 2011 16:08:24 GMT -9
Hey Scrolls !!
Welcome to the forums.
Those figures look great.
The only advise I would give, has already been mentioned, is to use black borders. White borders are a constant reminder that it's a paper model. Black borders contribute to the illusion of it being a proper miniature, and complements the art better. At least that's how I see it.
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Post by Vermin King on May 19, 2011 16:32:03 GMT -9
Those are very nice. More 'illustration' quality vs the standard 'One Monk' style. With the darker coloring that you use, the white border works. I love the darker coloration for figures, but they lose detail from the magic 3 foot distance. Listen to the people at this forum. Their constructive criticism is just that ... constructive. You don't have to give up your own style, but they can help you enhance it. Don't ever give up on your pure gift of talent. I tend to do things more of a comic book style. I guess some would consider it simplistic, but for theatrical props it works, which is mostly what I do. If I had your talent, I would probably be doing more.
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scrolls
Initiate
Goose time HONK!
Posts: 23
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Post by scrolls on May 19, 2011 17:33:40 GMT -9
Thanks for all the advice guys.
I'm working on a version with a black border, so you can see what they look like with one. Vermin King, with the dark colours I tend to use, the black border does indeed make them harder to see which is actually one of the reasons I personally stick with the white border.
You have a good point with the three foot distance thing, and it's true. The details are really nice close up, but you can't see them from that distance as well of course. I've played with these minis though, and I find that they are actually quite practical despite that.
Working in props sounds like fun! I do 3D mostly, and my final career goal is to be a character modeler for animated film. I've done video game asset modelling for small video game companies (unpaid intern whoo!) so I've done a lot of drawing through university.
Anywhoo, I'll post those black-bordered versions here soonish!
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Post by Vermin King on May 19, 2011 17:45:45 GMT -9
That sounds great. To make the black borders work, you will probably have to change the shading to be lighter near the top borders while remaining darker in the 'shadowed' portions.
Interning ... well, it pretty much has to be done.
I don't get paid for anything I do either on the prop side of things. But I enjoy it.
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scrolls
Initiate
Goose time HONK!
Posts: 23
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Post by scrolls on May 19, 2011 17:49:28 GMT -9
Yeah, you pretty much have to enjoy what you're doing if you're not getting paid to do it haha.
I agree, the darker minis need to be made lighter... by a lot. The darkest three (the non-npc characters) are the three that I made first, but I've been using lighter colours since, and it works a lot better.
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Post by cowboyleland on May 19, 2011 18:52:26 GMT -9
Welcome. I like your stile. OKum is right when he says your figs really have "character." I'm looking forward to seeing more. C. oops, I mean "style" I have no idea what the little ladder that goes over your fence looks like, or even if you have one
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scrolls
Initiate
Goose time HONK!
Posts: 23
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Post by scrolls on May 19, 2011 19:39:47 GMT -9
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Post by sammo on May 19, 2011 21:35:53 GMT -9
Excellent work. You've got a definite knack for character drawing.
As for the black boarders... I'd just echo the others, a properly cut mini with the black boarder (that is edged with a marker) and a decent base looks pretty darn good at the three foot distance (during gameplay), though it might require a bit of an adjustment in style).
If you plan to go commercial (which you certainly have the skill to do) I think many of your customers will expect the black boarders.
Keep up the good work.
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scrolls
Initiate
Goose time HONK!
Posts: 23
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Post by scrolls on May 19, 2011 21:50:42 GMT -9
thanks sammo, and everyone else, I'll stick to the black borders and make sure the colours are a bit less on the darker side. great advice by the way you guys are rad!
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Post by darkmook on May 19, 2011 23:10:39 GMT -9
Good work! welcome aboard!
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Post by cowboyleland on May 20, 2011 5:17:50 GMT -9
I really like the pie lady. If she was ever threatened by orcs my character would leap to her defence in an instant, filled with righteous rage! On the big question: black borders removes black clothes as an option and white borders create a similar limitation on white clothing. I am going to invoke my (imaginary) power as "Iconoclast and Heritic" and suggest that the black border is over-used and border colours should be picked according to which one best serves the artists vision of the character. Let the flaming begin! (to newbies: I'm just kidding, there is never any flaming on this board.) ps. think of all the time saved by not having to edge the white border pps also consider the discussion on Sammo's sea-nymph thread about the border around spells. The paradigm is crumbling! Heretics Rejoice!
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Post by sammo on May 20, 2011 6:31:35 GMT -9
Flame On!
Kidding.....of course
I am thinking about experimenting with boarder color, but I do plan to leave a boarder that can be edged. I even thought initially that I would have faction specific boarder colors for my skirmish game, but test builds of minis with green and red boarders looked poor...
To me it's like edging a cardstock model, something magical happens when you cover all of the plain paper, all of the sudden it becomes more than just some paper that slid out of my printer.
I'm with you on the time saving for edging though, especially if you are trying to crank out a large number of minis in a hurry.
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Post by Parduz on May 20, 2011 7:14:32 GMT -9
I think that (as example) changing the color of the border around something "not solid" may work only 'cause anything else solid (on the whole battlefield) have a black border. White borders may be useful to enhance a particular figure, as it becomes less "weighty" and sturdy (it gain a sort of "blessing halo", to my eyes). Varying border color each mini is the worst solution, imho. Other than the need of the right felt pen for edging, you'll end with a cacophony of colors. Our brain can immediately understand that a black border is somewhat that mean color separation (that's how comics works), it can be trained to see white borders in the same way, but messing around will alter this perception (and half of the job of a paper minis is altering your perception of depth ).
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Post by cowboyleland on May 20, 2011 10:57:10 GMT -9
I think you are mostly right Parduz (again!) Too many coulour borders could be a hassel but choosing between black and white shouldn't be a problem. AND I really feel the jury is still out on 2.5d best practice, as 2d's work better with borders but 3d models don't have borders and you do edge 3d models in whatever colour they are printed in, not usually black.
I just don't want people thoughtlessly sticking black borders on everything because "that is the way it is done" or worse rejecting cool ideas because they don't look right with a black border. I think we should weigh the pro's and con's for each fig (or better, set of figs) and do what serves our vision best
just some random thoughts.
C.
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scrolls
Initiate
Goose time HONK!
Posts: 23
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Post by scrolls on May 20, 2011 12:41:51 GMT -9
Hey, was just doing some experimenting this morning: The middle one allows for the use of dark colours without them fading into the background because of the small white outline, thoughts? I asked some of the players in the group I play D&D with, who are new to tabletop RPGs and haven't played with minis before, they favored either the white or the black with the white outline around the darker colours. I think if I do release sets, I'll just have a PDF with two pages, one with the white and one with the middle black borders, and you can just print whichever one you like better I guess! Maybe! I dunno!
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Post by gilius on May 20, 2011 15:23:44 GMT -9
Great results with the thin white line, I'd say it's the way to go with very dark colors.
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Post by cowboyleland on May 20, 2011 18:17:18 GMT -9
Thin white line is also an option. If it is easy to offer options to your customers you probably should, then you please more people and sell more stuff.
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scrolls
Initiate
Goose time HONK!
Posts: 23
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Post by scrolls on May 21, 2011 7:36:19 GMT -9
Yeah, I'll go with the thin white line on the black border, but I'll offer the option to print with just a white border, since I'll make them for myself with a white border anyway since I prefer it so it won't be extra work
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Post by papyrus on May 23, 2011 6:34:57 GMT -9
Scrolls,
Nice work, I'd use 'em. You do have a talent.
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Post by paladin on May 27, 2011 15:37:43 GMT -9
Now, that's VERY high quality work, Scrolls ! Reminds me of ... dunno ... FRENCH or BELGIAN COMIC ART ?! Very delicate (and alot) line-art, aquacolors with a grainy texture or something - I like this very much. And you have the creative mindset to trigger stories (which is the key to this whole undertaking, I think ... .). What's up with the goose on the Tiefling's back ? And why is the Halfling a happy bookworm ? Sorcerer's apprentice ? To the black/white trimming line problem: Choose, what supports your style. Very thin lines, subtle coloring = white border with thin outline. More robust, colorful style = strong, black outline. Compromise of black border with white outline should always work. It's a high contrast solution for pronouncing the overall FORM of the mini (which is very important).
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Post by labrat on May 28, 2011 1:10:30 GMT -9
Hey! Welcome aboard. I'm liking your stuff. You definitely have some artistic ability to be sure. It's a very unique and intersting style (in a good way . As for the whole black border discussion, in most cases I agree that a figure looks a little more polished with the black border, for all of the reasons mentioned above. Your style is very different from traditional styles, and I'm not sure it is the best style for your figures. I look at the pics that you've posted and I have difficulty deciding which looks better to me. One item I would bring up that I don't think has been mentioned yet is that without the black border, it's totally up to the discretion of the modeller how far out to cut the border, what to cut, and what not to cut. When I give a black border to my figures it clearly defines a cutting area, which makes it easier to be more precise and clean with the cutting. That is one advantage overall with the black border that you don't have with an undefined white border. One thing you might consider is trying a thinner black border. It would probably work better with your style of figure in terms of aesthetics. The drawback with that is the cutting becomes more intricate (not a problem if you have cut files). Anyways, those are just my thoughts on the subject. At any rate, I do really like your stuff and I hope you keep on developing new material, and letting us look at it. If you are looking to establish yourself commercially after developing your style a bit, there may be an opportunity to do that here in the future. We'll see how things go with the new website and all. Laterz! ;D
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Post by cowboyleland on May 28, 2011 6:37:58 GMT -9
Another thing to think about is that the view we use to "evaluate" figs is not the view we have when we play. The white border figs look good in the picture above against a white background, but in play the figs get usualy viewed from 3/4 above and at least 2' (60cm) away. The background in that view is probably complicated texture of stone or grass or something. I' don't know if the best border in real play situation is black, white or other.
Just something to consider.
C.
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Post by tatterdemalion on Jun 10, 2011 14:50:06 GMT -9
A black border provides more contrast with the light shapes on the minis, making them easier to 'read' farther away. To see what I mean, draw some shapes in 30% grays in a paint program, duplicate those shapes, and put them side by side against a white and black background respectively. Step back about six feet and you'll see the difference; even if your eyesight isn't very good the high-contrast object will be more noticable and memorable.
For similar reasons, if you're making a whole army, it might be best to stick to similar or low-saturation colours or one point of high contrast on each figure, while 'hero' models can have all sorts of crazy stuff happening.
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