|
Post by kiladecus on Nov 22, 2011 17:28:55 GMT -9
Hey all,
I'm not really sure where to post this, but I figure this is as good a place as any.
What do you generally pay for a model or set of paper figures?
Do you have a price cap?
Have there been sets that you REALLY wanted but didn't buy it because it was too much?
Please be honest with your answers, but DON'T give names of publishers or anything that might be a negative reflection to anyone here... If you have something POSITIVE to say about someone, feel free to put in a plug for them. I am NOT wanting start a debate or argument... Heavens know I have had my share of doing that in the past.
I always ask questions, and share my answers as well, because I would never ask anyone to do something I wouldn't do myself.
SO...
I choose models primarily for the "usefulness" of them. If it is free, and I have NO use for it, I won't even waste my time downloading it.
Price pays a HUGE part in factoring if I am going to purchase a set or not.
There was a time I wouldn't want to pay more than $2.00 for a set of 12 figures. Now I am paying $4.00 on a regular basis for DARKMOOK's sets. I am paying about $2.50 for a set of DAVE OKUM's sets. I have more of Dave's stuff then Adam's right now. Why is that? Simple. Dave's stuff is a little cheaper... in monetary value, NOT quality.
I have purchased MOST of Dave's stuff, and have a healthy helping of Darkmook's stuff. BOTH of these artists have MAJOR benefits over other figure producers out there. (I have a HUGE collection of One Monk figures as well. I will not include these in this post, because I got them when they were free... and I am only talking about figures I have paid for).
With models, I think the leader in the industry (as far as vehicles go) is Glenn Williams of Finger and Toe. I have purchased most of his sets, and he could make a toilet paper dispenser for his Bel's Kitty, and I would buy it the moment it is released.
Regardless of the product, I generally don't spend more than $5.00 per model. That is just me. When FAT DRAGON runs a promotion, that's when I buy!
As far as buildings and scenery go, I have to say Finger and Toe, Dave Graffan and Paper Make iT are all tied.
Then again, I still have a cap. Finger and Toe sells a lot of their models for less than $3.00, and has some for over $10.00. I am getting to the point where I am going to get these sets eventually.
SO, to sum up...
I will pay $2.50 without balking for a set of figures. (A little more for DARKMOOK's sets... only because that is his going rate (and his sets include bases and diaramas that I will never print out... BUT he has offered many sets for free, so I consider that the trade-off, a free set and a $4.00 set = 2 sets for $2.00 each).
I generally won't pay more than $5.00 for any set UNLESS it really is something I REALLY want. (Then again, I have paid nearly $18.00 for the Bel's Kitty tank and accesories, and I will continue to buy these as Glenn produces them).
Another factor is what do you get for the price. Glenn (again) offers his models in no less than 5 color variations! Dave Okum gives no less than three layers to his (paid) sets. Dave Graffam lets you paint the walls, hang pictures and even decide what you want to decorate the models with.
Is variations important to you? Or would you rather have ONE model in ONE color, and get it a little cheaper?
If you buy a model that has multiple color variations, do you make more than one? Ebbles (back when he was the leader) started offering his models in single colors after a long run of multi-colored sets. He thought this would allow his models to be cheaper, but in reality, if you bought two color schemes, you would be paying as much as you would for his previous sets of 8 colors.
Is that important to you? If someone offered a model tank (for example) in four colors, would you build only one of them, or one of each?
I buy vehicles first... then scenery or models... THEN buildings.
I am curious to see what you think is too much to pay.
Thanks in advance for your input!
|
|
|
Post by cowboyleland on Nov 22, 2011 18:40:29 GMT -9
Ok, I'll out myself. I have paid for games but I have yet to pay for paper figs. Mostly it is because I think 2d figs are inadequate and my friends accept my 2.5s and reject 2d. So I have to make anything I will get a chance to use. I plan to by Okum's "school girls vs zombies" but that is a game, not just a mini line. I love looking at figs for inspiration, but I don't expect to ever by one. I have bought models to build for decoration and amusement, but I don't game with those. Sorry I can't be an audience you could target. At least everyone else is going to feel free to comment now. No one else is going to say anything more discouraging
|
|
|
Post by Sirrob01 on Nov 22, 2011 23:01:46 GMT -9
For me it's about completeness of an army, I like to multi purpose purpose the miniatures for light Hack n Slash games + Small skirmish games like SOBH but also field enough variety to have a full blown no quarter army. To do the above with minimal repetition seems to take 3-4 different poses of each weapon type adding different cape colours/clothes helps but for some armies multi-coloured cloak wearers dosen't work so well. For fantasy vehicles differences are not so important (no idea why). But for sci-fi I like to have different markings I can place on different units so that when they are on the table the colour matches but the markings don't and you can tell them apart etc (numbers/insignia/nose art etc). As for price anything under $5 and I'll just snap it up, above that I need a use or it needs to look cool
|
|
|
Post by Adam Souza on Nov 22, 2011 23:20:24 GMT -9
I bought Big Jim's sets at $3.95, a set or two a week, if I could use them. Then bought his entirely library when they went on sale for $2.
Sanity Studios has moved to the $3.95 price mark for it's regiment sets and that seems reasonable. I'll pick them up when I have a use for them.
Dave Okum's stuff at $2.50 set a new standard in my find. Not only is the art top notch, but 10+ unique figures in 5 color schemes is a tough act to follow. I've snapped up all his fantasy and martial arts related stuff, and will eventually pick up the rest of the library when I next play a western or space related game. $2.50 is at the impulse buy price point.
|
|
|
Post by Parduz on Nov 22, 2011 23:47:23 GMT -9
I'm a poor gamer, so money is an important factor. I'm also a "collector": i mean that i store lots of things, an so i do for "files", being them miniatures, ruleset, models, or whatever related to gaming.
So, while i grab everything i find for free, i'm often struggling to buy what i really like (i have no really "needs"). As example, the old Ebbles models are a thing i miss a lot. At that time i could not afford the big models, and even the CD... and now they're gone forever.
Another thing that i have to say is that, when the price for whatever paper is close to a boxed game, i start to look at the latter: as you know, i hate the cutting/building process as much as painting, and so a "ready to play" game becomes more appetizing.
|
|
|
Post by gilius on Nov 23, 2011 0:09:25 GMT -9
I agree with Adam and Kiladecus, US$2.50 is my threshold for impulse buy, and US$5.00 is the limit most of the time.
Variations and color schemes are nice to have, they make the figures or models more flexible for different uses, especially in the case of multiple textures in buildings or vehicles. That said, I like to kitbash stuff and there's a lot that can be done with Gimp to "adjust" a model. If the variations were offered separately, I probably wouldn't buy multiple versions.
|
|
|
Post by Christopher Roe on Nov 23, 2011 4:09:11 GMT -9
If you buy a model that has multiple color variations, do you make more than one? Ebbles (back when he was the leader) started offering his models in single colors after a long run of multi-colored sets. He thought this would allow his models to be cheaper, but in reality, if you bought two color schemes, you would be paying as much as you would for his previous sets of 8 colors. Not quite--my thinking at the time was that a majority of people had just one or two preferred schemes, and didn't build all of them. So, I figured if people could choose just the one or two schemes they liked, they'd only be paying $2-$4 total instead of the full $8 bundle rate. It was a way for me to lower my prices without losing my shirt. It worked, but with the unexpected consequence that a significant number of people developed a sort of "gotta get 'em all" attitude and kept coming back for more. On one hand, I did facepalm because I honestly conceived of this scheme as a way to save people money, but on the other hand, that extra money really did help, and not just to my benefit. Without it, I'd have folded earlier and I wouldn't even have been able to keep the old Ebbles downloads around. I was able to fix things so my former customers could still have access to their old purchases after the close-down. I'll leave it to you guys to decide if that was a worthwhile return for the investment or not. *grin* If I had to do it all over again...I definitely wouldn't quit my day job. I don't mean that in a regretful or rueful way--I've had plenty of time over the past year to reflect objectively on things, and a few of the epiphanies that have occurred over that timeframe have been surprising. For example, I discovered that I actually do my best work when I'm not really working. The models I released over at WorldWorks (Brio, Interceptor, HL 300, Podtel 6) were all actually done in my spare time, and the Podtel was a "What can I make in 24 hours?" challenge that got polished up for sale after the fact. If you were to ask me where I think PDF pricing should be, you might be surprised to hear that I think digital content should be priced at app store levels. Like, 99 cents, $1.99, that kind of level. The Catch-22 that prevents that idea from being practical is the fact that there aren't enough customers in this market to make that pricing level profitable.
|
|
|
Post by Parduz on Nov 23, 2011 4:18:40 GMT -9
[Sorry for the OT, it is the first time i see Mel here around from a lot of time...] Mel, i sent you a private message about AT-43==>SoBH some months ago.... did you read it?
|
|
|
Post by kiladecus on Nov 23, 2011 5:32:23 GMT -9
WOW! Thanks for the input everyone. Also, it is important to be careful what you write, because you NEVER know when someone like the legend himself will pop up and chime in! SO, if it sounded like I was saying that Mr. Ebbles was trying to make more money than he should, or anything like that, by ALL means, please re-read my message! I was simply saying that he had sets that were $5.00 (if I can trust my memory) for 8 colors. Then started selling one color for $2.50 (on average... blah, blah, blah...). I guess I am saying that I am the kind of guy that will stand in the cereal aisle at the market and hold two boxes of cereal in my hands. I look at the price... then compare the ounces... break down the price per ounce (I LOVE the stores that have that on the tag on the shelf already!) and consider if it is worth the extra little bit to go with the name brand verses the generic. Some items I buy ONLY the name brand (I NEVER use generic presecriptions unless my insurance doesn't cover them). If there is a sale on an item, and the Name brand is within a certain margin of the generic, then I will pay a little more for the NB. It also depends on what I am using it for. If I am making meatloaf, then I will buy the cheapest crackers there are. I also am known by my family to buy bread and bakery items off the day-old mark-down rack. (Remind me to tell you about my daughter's 9th birthday cake I got for 60% off)! So, with ALL of that said, what I am hearing is this (paraphrasing): SOME people wouldn't pay ANYTHING for paper miniatures (with sites like trollandtoad,com, where you can buy plastic figures for $.49US, I can see that, but then you have to add shipping, and so forth... and then you have to wait... and if you buy 4 figures, you will have 4 figures, where if you buy paper figures, you can have as many as you want). I felt that same way for a long time. Maybe because I could download EXCELLENT figures from ONE MONK for free, and I didn't think about it. Well, Now that Sanity Studios started using some SANITY, they put a price on something that SHOULD have had a price on it all along. By selling their figures, they actually added value to them. I used to feel the exact opposite, but I am seeing things in a new light now! The best thing that is given away, still has no value to it. ANOTHER thing I am hearing is that having 2 poses that are flipped around doesn't make a "real" set of figures. You would rather have 4 separate poses, and be able to have color choices. I think I have all the information about figures now (if people still want to add more, please feel free). Let's talk more about MODELS. If you paid $5.00 (or as Mr. Roe suggested, $4.99) for a model, and got the exact same model in four colors, do you think that is a good price? NOW, I know, when people hear the term model, they are thinking, well, it depends on what you are talking about... are you talking about a model I would WANT, might have a use for, or just something that looks cool, but I could live with or without it... It's kinda like calling the pizza place and saying, "How much to get a pizza delivered?" They need to know where you live, what type and what toppings you want on it. I am just saying, if you saw a cool model (something medium-sized) and it came in 4 colors, ran about $5.00 USD, would you consider buying it? If it was something TOTALLY unique, never done before, would you buy THAT? OR, would you prefer buying something because it was familiar? You look at it and say, "Hey, isn't that a...?" I appreciate all of the input so far, and I hope this continues. I am learning a LOT! And, btw, DON'T hesitate to respond, even if you think the reply was "discouraging." I want to hear everyone's opinion and hear your thoughts. Thanks for taking the time to respond! ;D
|
|
|
Post by Christopher Roe on Nov 23, 2011 6:52:13 GMT -9
Don't sweat it. I visit this place once or twice a week to see what everybody else is up to. *grin*
I don't think there's an universal magic price, to be honest. Five bucks is "BY GRABTHAR'S HAMMER, WHAT A SAVINGS!" to one guy and an extortionate portrait of capitalism run amok to another guy, and you could ask 50 people and get something like 50 different answers.
I've had one person tell me I charge much too little, and the next day I might get an unpleasant email from somebody who thinks I have a fat head and charge way too much. There's no pleasing everybody!
I've experimented briefly with "pay what you like" models, and what generally happens is that a few people pay more than the suggested amount, many pay the suggested amount, very few pay less than the suggested amount, and the largest proportion of downloaders don't pay anything at all. I'm not casting aspersions on anyone, mind you--it's just how the numbers break down. It didn't really give me any useful information on what the ideal pricing would be.
In the end, it's also kind of subjective. For example, something small but awesome could easily command a higher price, while something huge and boring wouldn't fetch much. My advice would be to just start out with what you personally think it's worth and see how it does in the market. You can always reduce the price afterwards if it looks like the market disagrees with your appraisal of the product's value.
|
|
|
Post by Adam Souza on Nov 23, 2011 7:44:50 GMT -9
It comes down to if your willing to do it for the love of the hobby and make a few bucks on the side, or try to make it a full time job.
Personally, I think paper miniatures are a great hobby, and anyone with an ounce of talent and some business acumen can make a few bucks on the side.
|
|
|
Post by cowboyleland on Nov 23, 2011 7:58:51 GMT -9
To split even more hairs, I would pay for a 2.5 or 3d fig that was easy to build and I thought I would use. The 3d models I bought were actually because I made a mobile for my wife. For me sticking wings on separately or putting cross pieces on crossbows isn't 3d enough. I'm more an RPGer but I do use SirRob's Teddies for Song of Fur and Buttons
|
|
|
Post by hackbarth on Nov 23, 2011 9:00:08 GMT -9
I pay up to 5US$ for a set of figures, but for me to pay more than 3US$ the set has to have many variety and poses, not just recolors.
I pay up to 12US$ for scenery. That is my second more preferred buy, first are figures. To pay more the scenery has to be really massive/amazing, like The Maiden of the High Seas or Dragonshire. My cap is 20US$ but I never reached it, the most expensive set i bought was The Maiden, before the price for WWG went down, and I believe it cost 18US$ at the time.
I would pay up to 8US$ for a set of vehicles, or 5US$ for one vehicle, but I didn't think I bought any, vehicles are my least preferred buy.
I bought mostly from World Works games, One-Monk, Fat Dragon, Kyrin Future Armada, Okumarts, Dave Graffan, Finger and Toe, Jabbro in rougly that order, ordered by amount of money expended. I think Finger and toe and Okumarts will concentrate my next buys, for reasons of price and variety of figures/scenery.
|
|
|
Post by kiladecus on Nov 23, 2011 9:21:40 GMT -9
Well, there are all good comments here... keep them coming! I think it is AWESOME to hear a Galaxy Quest reference, but to hear it in context... That will keep me laughing all day. I tend to agree with what you are saying about the 2.5D figures, to a point, but I also know how difficult it is to do certain smaller figures at that scale. Mel is a genius! Not just saying that because he is obviously popping in here, but I have always said that. As a matter of fact, for the first couple years I got into "papercraft," my wife called it "Ebbles." Now she calls it an obsession! Anyway, I think I have just about got all the feedback I need to make some decisions. Well, I will NOT be doing any figures like the ones that CowboyLeland, Eddnic, or Mel have done. I can't see that happening... EVER! Not that they don't look fantastic, but I don't have the talent to BUILD them, let alone design them. I will have some models that will be 3D, and figures that are 2D. I will have stuff that will be smaller, some medium-sized and a few *big* models. I will NOT be doing anything like the UD-41 Dropship (MY favorite model EVER, just in case you cared. When we moved, I wouldn't put it in a box. I carried it on my lap in the van, and it was the first thing I took into the house...). Ok, feel free to keep the comments coming. I am enjoying this conversation! Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by nikloveland on Nov 23, 2011 10:44:29 GMT -9
I thought I'd share a portion of a PM Jim sent me this June: I've also made a similar comment back when we purchased One Monk. A good thread that is somewhat tangential to this topic is the Economics of Production. There's many good ideas in there and I still go back and read it from time to time ( one thing that is particularly important to remember). [Aside: I also like the creativity suggested for conventions.] Now for my own personal thoughts. I like the $2-$3 idea but it's a bit too low to offer specials and deals (from a publisher's perspective). I agree with most here that $5 is the max for small PDF sets. That leaves a very small window. I like to think our sets are priced in the middle but I realize they are probably more on the 'higher' price of what's out in the market. I guess that's partially due to the 'pride' factor but also I hope to encourage others into the market (if that makes sense).
|
|
|
Post by glennwilliams on Nov 23, 2011 11:25:36 GMT -9
From the producer's end, it's a harrowing decision: if I charge too much, the model won't sell, but if I charge too little, the margin is too thin. Generally I start with a price per page ($.40 or $.50), then adjust to what I think is appropriate depending on the size of the final model (I don't factor in any of the instruction and reference view pages) and the complexity of designing it. Nowadays, it's rare for me to price over six dollars, but I'll do it for an extra large or extra complex set.
I have one customer who routinely sends me an email once a year telling me how much my models suck and how over-priced they are. The email is nearly verbatim, so I figure he's got a bot that sends it out on some significant day, like the anniversary of Joyce's Finnegan's Wake or some such. You can't please everybody.
On the buyer's side, I'm generally looking for figures, so I set about $3-4 upper range for what I'll pay. Model sets, I'll go higher, but usually not more than $10--unless it's a Worldworks set I want. Their stuff is so drop dead gorgeous, it has its own decision guidelines. I made an exception for Ebbles--I just love his style (and his sense of humor). Unfortunately, one side effect of being a producer is that you don't get around to buying and assembling as much as you want.
|
|
|
Post by kiladecus on Nov 23, 2011 11:39:34 GMT -9
Wow! How often do you get to hear from your heroes and legends!
I think if Jim Hartman were to post something, I may just call it a day... a GREAT day! (Although, he kinda did on Nik's post).
It is so interesting to hear Glenn's thoughts about pricing per page. That is what Mel said in the past. I realize there is no set standard. You can't compare one publisher's work to another.
Jim, Glenn, Christopher and Marcus have ALL been named by me as the "Great Ones." I have built more of Mel's stuff than I have anything else... although Glenn is a very close second.
In my opinion Jim (and all of those following in his footsteps) have set a new standard. Every publisher brings something new to the table.
I can't express how good it is to hear this feedback. Very encouraging and Nik, thanks for the links!
|
|
|
Post by hackbarth on Nov 24, 2011 3:29:23 GMT -9
I put my RPG models in three categories, but I think it must be four: Figures, Scenery, Vehicles and Tiles. I forgot tiles because I almost don't buy them (I am satisfied with the typically came in the Scenery sets). I open an exception to Kyrin Future Armada Series. I love the models and print them in canvas, in express printing shops. But I acknowledge that there many others producers of Tiles (like Lord Zsezse and Inked Adventures).
So the price I want to pay and the price that I've paid for a outstanding set are roughly: Figures 2,5US$ - 5US$ Scenery 5US$ - 18US$ Vehicles 3US$ - 8US$ Tiles 3US$ - 8US$
The things that make me pay more for a model are quality of the drawing and design, exclusivity of subject matter (there are few werewolfes and astronauts, for example, I would pay more for a set of them.), size of the set (big number of figures or a set of many buildings) and ease of building in that order.
|
|
|
Post by mruseless on Nov 26, 2011 6:00:12 GMT -9
For sets of figs, I will pay $2 or $2.50 but $3.95 just "feels" like its too high.
For 3D vehicles and such, I would pay more, up to about $10 if the design was really cool looking to me.
For terrain, it sort of depends on what you get for the money. I've paid up to $10 for large sets of terrain tiles.
|
|
|
Post by nikloveland on Dec 29, 2011 7:13:01 GMT -9
|
|
|
Post by glennwilliams on Dec 29, 2011 7:35:32 GMT -9
Which raises the persistent problem with digital content--the belief that if you can't touch, it ought to be free. There's a rule in economics called Gresham's Law: bad money drives out good. The same principle applies here: free drives out pay, and that leads to some very scary business scenarios for the artist/producer. Personally, I'd recommend everybody keep their day job--at least through one business cycle (unless you designed Angry Birds).
|
|