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Post by riotinferno on Mar 14, 2012 9:33:34 GMT -9
Hello. I've been trying to get into wargames for the better part of 5 years now, buying rule books and various bits here and there, but the main stumbling blocks have been a) Small local scene, b) cost, and c) I'm not really talented at painting things.
Paper minis solve b) and c), and we recently had a wargaming store open in my town. My question is, really, how frowned upon is it if I show up to play an "established" game [ 40k, WFB, Kings of War (which I'm partial to), etc ] with a paper army instead of a "proper" army?
Or is paper (and the war-gaming hobby) something that I should relegate to playing with close friends at my house?
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Post by Vermin King on Mar 14, 2012 9:45:48 GMT -9
I'd ask
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Post by Dave on Mar 14, 2012 9:49:23 GMT -9
Probably best to ask first. You'll probably meet some resistance -- I mean uptight people. From what I've seen, paper armies aren't considered too legitimate in a game store environment. I can kind of see their point, since many of these stores exist to sell you paint and miniatures. But you never know, and they might not know, either.
In fact, ask them why they don't carry paper miniatures and models, since they're so obviously great for trying out new games. Probably fly right off the shelves...
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Post by riotinferno on Mar 14, 2012 9:54:48 GMT -9
Thanks guys. And if the locals have issues with paper armies, meh. I'm too old to worry about that, and have other uses for my time.
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Post by glennwilliams on Mar 14, 2012 11:53:16 GMT -9
and there are the paper minis in the Pathfinder beginners box to point to in support.
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Post by Rhannon on Mar 14, 2012 11:58:51 GMT -9
Hello. I've been trying to get into wargames for the better part of 5 years now, buying rule books and various bits here and there, but the main stumbling blocks have been a) Small local scene, b) cost, and c) I'm not really talented at painting things. Paper minis solve b) and c), and we recently had a wargaming store open in my town. My question is, really, how frowned upon is it if I show up to play an "established" game [ 40k, WFB, Kings of War (which I'm partial to), etc ] with a paper army instead of a "proper" army? Or is paper (and the war-gaming hobby) something that I should relegate to playing with close friends at my house? For me blocks are a) + c) and d) I'm an old guy and don't have much free time ( to kill minis with my painting attempts ). I don't know where you live but my experience, in northern Italy, is identical to that dagobahdave described above. Especially some "official" stores ( their IPs are protected by copyright so papers minis, vehicles ... about their products ... are not welcome for various reasons ). Other stores, other retailers may not have many problems with paper products but players ... Today some "official" ( wargame ) rules are for childish boys or are becoming a sort of monolithic religion. ;D No "unofficial" change is allowed. So if there's a miniatures' official line ( metal, plastic, or broken resin ;D ), usually only the "official" figures are accepted by the "official" players. They have lost a 360° visual about games and fun, imho. But it is so. The situation may be better in a gaming club. Many rules, many game systems ( indie rules, official rules, home-rules, boardgames, rpgs ... ) and many players ( rpg-players, boardgames players, multi rules and systems players ... have certainly fewer problems about use of alternative materials ) give more opportunities.
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Post by cornixt on Mar 14, 2012 15:20:38 GMT -9
You'd want to avoid gaming clubs that are set in stores that sell the games, they tend to be of the opinion that you can really only use the stuff that they sell, preferably that you buy it from them. Sort of an exchange, you get the space to play and they get some business.
I'm going to try supplementing my Games Workshop armies with 3D card models and see what they say in the store. Scratch-built stuff tends to get allowed if it is a small part of the army, commercial stuff by other companies is not allowed. Never seen anyone use flat card models at all, I expect they wouldn't accept it. I'm going to make a 2D card army for my children to play with rather than risk them damaging my own models, they are very keen to play (and it beats playing chess over and over).
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Post by josedominguez on Mar 15, 2012 0:34:09 GMT -9
If you show up at a Games Workshop with a card army they will have you killed. As long as it's independent, make some really good quality card models and base them properly (use sand etc... just like a normal figure) and take some along, ask to run a demo game and pick a game that doesn't have a dedicated line of figures. Look at Gruntz for sci-fi. Maybe this could lead to some of the car figure producers selling a line of PDF CD's in stores? ??
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Post by riotinferno on Mar 15, 2012 5:34:08 GMT -9
Thanks for all the good ideas and input guys. I'll definitely have to have a chat with my local store owner about what's acceptable.
I had never really thought about the play-space = sales paradigm. That's a great point.
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Post by aviphysics on Mar 15, 2012 6:06:43 GMT -9
I had just recently discussed this very topic with my buddies who play 40k and they just kept going on an on about how it screws up line of site because your figures would be 2D and painting the miniatures is an important part of the game blah blah blah yada yada yada... *rolls eyes*.
But the guys I play with are a little eccentric.
If you are going to play at a store with paper minis I would at least make sure you are buying stuff from them. Seems kind of rude to use their space and not buy anything. Especially if you are going to be evangelizing papercraft over traditional figures, which you are kind of doing by just being there.
I have seen people make stuff that is either an otherwise ridiculously expensive and semi rare model or not available model and play it in a 40K store. In one case the model was the person's entire army. An Ork Gargant to be specific.
The good news is that most 40K players are crud painters as well. I have seen a lot of people with Space Marine armies just spray painted blue. Cost is definitely an issue. You could get around this by sticking to skirmish games.
War Machine is another good cheaper 40k alternative. Not only are the figures a lot cheaper than GW but the armies tend to be smaller as well so less painting to do.
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Post by Sirrob01 on Mar 19, 2012 22:37:08 GMT -9
I had just recently discussed this very topic with my buddies who play 40k and they just kept going on an on about how it screws up line of site because your figures would be 2D Yep been up against this one myself so it's not that uncommon an argument against paper mini's.
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Post by josedominguez on Mar 20, 2012 0:29:38 GMT -9
I just point them in the direction of any prone or crouching models they have and say 'so where do you measure his LOS from then?'.
I'd rather play against an army of well put together card minis than a badly painted '3D' army, and face it, most forces you play against are either badly painted or not finished.
Having to paint minis keeps a lot of players out of the hobby, they either don't have the time or just don't enjoy painting, why should that stop them from wargaming? Not many other passtimes like that really. It adds an element of snobbery to the game, it's also part of why gamers have a certain image with those who don't play. You see it at games clubs, conventions etc... certain groups looking down their noses at others, be it 'painters vs pre-paints' or 'everyone vs WH40K players'. It's that attitude that keeps wargaming out of the mainstream. It's very similar to 'comic book guys', I love wargames, I've played for 28 years, but I always try to remember that they are games. There to be enjoyed. I just don't get it, most of the world looks down at wargamers as 'men playing with soldiers', so why the hell do we then feel the need to subdivide ourselves?
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Post by kiladecus on Mar 20, 2012 1:16:38 GMT -9
Most gamers are snobs when it comes to figures. Many say that to play a game, you have to have the "actual" figures. But more than JUST that, they are tied to certain games. I have two friends that played 40K with for YEARS. We all poured THOUSANDS of dollars into our armies. They were the guys that would always go to the tournaments and win. When MAGE KNIGHT came out, I liked it better than 40K. I got into that BIG time (was a Warlord, and so forth). They made fun of me and basically ousted me (some friends, huh?). After HERO CLIX came out, (which was MAGE KNIGHT with super heroes), they LOVED it, and bought up a bunch of that... I ended up going to the National MK tourney, and placed! My point, gamers can be jerks about new ideas. I for one prefer making paper models to the $45+ tanks by those other guys... it is funner (no painting) and the products look JUST as good on the table. Speaking of MK, they had the rule that you measure from the center of the base/model. No LOS worries about THAT! My two cents...
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Post by aviphysics on Mar 20, 2012 12:13:54 GMT -9
What is really hilarious is that many of the people who make the best painted armies don't even use them to play.
My roommate says the best painted 40K army he ever saw was made by a guy who has never played the game at all. The guy wants to play but somehow doesn't have the time to. LOL. This was a while ago so he would probably have to make a whole new army if he wanted to play now.
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Post by riotinferno on Mar 20, 2012 12:21:43 GMT -9
That's pretty funny (painters not players). It looks like I'll be keeping my paper armies to private games (not at the FLGS ), but that's okay too. One day (hopefully) they'll come around
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Post by dragnoz on Mar 20, 2012 12:47:50 GMT -9
hehe... i was a painter not player, loved painting them, designing and building the buildings and battle fields but never actually picked up a rulebook
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Post by kiladecus on Mar 20, 2012 14:52:31 GMT -9
I was a painter, and a BAD player... my armies dies, but looked good doing it.
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Post by nikloveland on Mar 20, 2012 17:27:00 GMT -9
I guess I'll post a recent reply here since it would actually be on topic (whereas originally it had nothing to do with the original thread): Sad, because it is a matter of time until a cease and desist comes, as we know how these things work. Also because if your gaming groups that use these product lines are anything like those I've seen, paper minis will be ignored (if you're lucky) or reviled by zealots. In my opinion, all effort is better directed at creating your own lines of figures, whether free or as commercial products, and with your own rules or using one of the dozens of other rules systems that are not tied to a miniature line. It's not like this product line's game rules are particularly innovative, anyway. The works of Sammo (Into the Fray), Kiladecus (Era of War), Sanity Studios (Bellicose) among others, are good examples of what I'm saying. Miniature games where paper minis are the standard, not temporary "fillers" and you don't have to apologize for your hard work. This is exactly the reason why I'm continuing the development of Bellicose Fantasy Battles! It's tons of work and really if I wanted to play a game, I could much more easily pick up someone else's rules [and some days I do JUST want to play]. But the fact remains, either a game system has, what I deem to be, issues or the players of the game would not allow paper models. I'm not too worried about finding other players for less popular games since I can just teach rules to whoever I want to play with. Something I do worry about is the production quality of the less popular games. I like something that looks nice and doesn't feel like was created in wordpad (or TextEdit for us Mac guys). I also feel this may contribute to the lack of popularity of said games. This is why Bellicose will be in full-color. So in short, I want a nice quality mass-combat fantasy miniatures game that features (or at least allows) paper miniatures. It's not something I've found yet and so I continue development of Bellicose.
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Post by gilius on Mar 21, 2012 12:38:38 GMT -9
... So in short, I want a nice quality mass-combat fantasy miniatures game that features (or at least allows) paper miniatures. It's not something I've found yet and so I continue development of Bellicose. And as I feel it a little less off-topic to post this reply here, I'll gladly buy Bellicose if you have the option of a PDF file. Shipping to Brazil is either too expensive or takes forever to arrive
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Post by nikloveland on Mar 22, 2012 17:49:30 GMT -9
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Post by kane on Mar 25, 2012 21:34:28 GMT -9
Back on topic, I did this with Warmachine at a local store and everyone was so impressed that it became the go-to format for everyone looking to test-drive an army or build before plunking down cash for the models.
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Post by glennwilliams on Mar 26, 2012 7:21:48 GMT -9
Back on topic, I did this with Warmachine at a local store and everyone was so impressed that it became the go-to format for everyone looking to test-drive an army or build before plunking down cash for the models. Clever marketing for the FLGS manager.
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Post by josedominguez on Mar 26, 2012 15:12:49 GMT -9
My friend took a paper Ultramarines army to our local GamesWorkshop. We miss him.
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Post by gilius on Mar 26, 2012 15:26:29 GMT -9
My friend took a paper Ultramarines army to our local GamesWorkshop. We miss him. LOL Great
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Post by kiladecus on Mar 27, 2012 12:12:07 GMT -9
@ KANE: I have your WarMachine figures... They are very nice. ;D (They also were great in ERA OF WAR).
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