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Post by madarchitect on Apr 1, 2013 5:18:04 GMT -9
Taking a break from working on models related with the medieval cannon and other more mundane stuff, I made a little experiment. I've extracted several knights from original illustrations of XIV century Codex Manesse. Then I've scaled them to ca. 30mm and made their backsides, making these paper miniatures. Full resolution available here.Photos of printed figures here.What do you think about such "source material figures"? Hate it? Like it? Should I make more of them? I probably will anyway but I'm very curious for your opinion.
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Post by hackbarth on Apr 1, 2013 5:40:28 GMT -9
Fantastic figures. The fact that they are from the "source material" of the knight tales makes them truly a work of art.
It may be that they are in a style and proportion slightly different than the "traditional" paper miniatures, put yet I see that they are surprisingly close to what we use in our games. I for one can think of some scenarios that I could use these.
And a just realized that I had to put our "traditional" between quote marks, because suddenly we are talking about art with hundreds of years of age. And they wouldn't look too out of place with any other work that I have seem in here. At least they aren't as distinct from what we are used to as any other two authors of minis here are distinct between them. This is in itself amazing.
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Post by grendelsmother64 on Apr 1, 2013 6:03:35 GMT -9
This is a very cool idea. I have a black and white copy of the Nuremberg Chronicle (about 1500AD) that has a ton of very interesting woodcuts of the period. I've always thought that there is great potential for figures in that book. GM64
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Post by gilius on Apr 1, 2013 6:32:06 GMT -9
*Very* interesting approach and results! I agree with Hackbarth, they seem to fit very well with other paper minis.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2013 7:27:53 GMT -9
What do you think about such "source material figures"? Hate it? Like it? Should I make more of them? I probably will anyway but I'm very curious for your opinion. Nice idea - kinda origin "revival"! Actually I did something like this back in 2005 I've used both Codex Manesse and Bayeux Tapestry as well as some other sources as reference for illustrations for two Kartonowa Armia (Cardboard Army) Magazine printed issues. I was using very simple tools and techniques back then but I liked the results - you can see just a few samples below... ...and some more, with full page thumbnails and figurines (60mm) here: www.kartonowefigurki.pl/sub-ka16.htmlwww.kartonowefigurki.pl/sub-ka07.htmlSo answering your question I'd say yes - it would be nice to see more of such a "based-on-origin" figurines.
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Post by stevelortz on Apr 1, 2013 7:53:21 GMT -9
Oh! For the days when I was a young and sprightly creative genius myself! I always wanted to sculpt some minis, not just based on the Bayeux Tapestry, but that looked exactly like the illustrations themselves, so that I could build a 3-D dioramas of scenes from the tapestry.
I like these very much, and I want some of those period groupies for your medieval musicians, too, mesper!
Have fun! Steve
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Post by Rhannon on Apr 1, 2013 9:17:01 GMT -9
A really good work, madarchitect. Bravo!
They remind me the beautiful traditional old paper soldiers. ( such as those of mesper but "antique" ).
Is it a dream also think about a 54/60 mm. scale ?
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Post by madarchitect on Apr 1, 2013 10:42:59 GMT -9
Actually I did something like this back in 2005 Of all people here, I guess I could have expected you have done something like this mesper . Looking for reference for authentic knight illustrations Codex Manesse is hard to ignore. Is it a dream also think about a 54/60 mm. scale ? If I could find somewhere better resolution scans, who knows. Those I used were obtained from University of Heidelberg pages (home of original manuscript), so I guess it may be difficult to get better images. Those I got allowed only ~30mm in 300dpi. For now all I can suggest is to rescale them reducing to 150dpi. I could redraw them to 60mm 300 dpi, but that would require much more time than I have and it wouldn't be the same. Thank you all for encouragement. You can expect more Manesse knights in near future.
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Post by cowboyleland on Apr 1, 2013 17:06:05 GMT -9
I really like these. They could really set the mood for some games, Which games I don't know. I'm thinking something Arthurian, but I guess more German would be better. Anyway, I love the look of them.
Was it a choice to make the black on the backs lighter than on the fronts? Just curious.
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Post by madarchitect on Apr 1, 2013 22:54:14 GMT -9
I really like these. They could really set the mood for some games, Which games I don't know. I'm thinking something Arthurian, but I guess more German would be better. Anyway, I love the look of them. Was it a choice to make the black on the backs lighter than on the fronts? Just curious. I think Arthurian myth would be just fine. Arthurian legends were very popular and widely known throughout the Europe at the time, and usually were illustrated in similar style. (Just to mention a tale of Lancelot depicted on the paintings in the XIV century ducal tower in Siedlêcin, Poland). As for the black... hmm I'm not sure If I know what you mean. I've checked it on different monitors, on the prints and overlayed fronts on the backs in photoshop to verify, checked RGB values at random and I see no evident difference...
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Post by cowboyleland on Apr 2, 2013 15:50:48 GMT -9
Maybe it is my monitor. When I look at the picture at the top of the page and when I click on the "full resolution" link it looks to me like the helmet crests are a darker shade of grey on the upright images than on the upside down ones.
Could be my eyes. Could be my monitor. Just strange that it happens at both sizes.
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Post by madarchitect on Apr 8, 2013 12:25:01 GMT -9
Another bunch of Codex Manesse knights have arrived. Click here for full resolution image. First two are mespers old acquaintances obviously. The third Hartman von Aue (the one with a giant bird on the helmet) is an interesting figure. It is (was) a German (Middle High German:)) translator of some of the Arthurian tales. That (and cowboyleland's mention about Arthurian setting a few posts above) inspired me to make one more mini. Straight from the pages of XIV century illustrated copy of Merlin by Robert de Boron, I give you... the wizard Merlin! ;D. Enjoy. More CMK to come...
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Post by Vermin King on Apr 8, 2013 15:18:11 GMT -9
Can you even imagine creating figures that seven centuries later would inspire others?
Thanks for these
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Post by oldschooldm on Apr 8, 2013 16:23:30 GMT -9
I wish I had a reason to use these. They are so apealing...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 16:36:46 GMT -9
Can you even imagine creating figures that seven centuries later would inspire others? Yeah - just imagine some ancient Greek or Roman "tourist" (vide Caesar Hadrian - admirer of Greek Culture), who is standing in front of nearly two thousand year old (back then!) Egyptian mural, or Temple of Apollo in Delphi wondering the same...
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Post by cowboyleland on Apr 9, 2013 9:42:01 GMT -9
Gorgeous figures. I too am on a quest to find a game worthy of these figures.
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Post by madarchitect on Apr 18, 2013 22:37:29 GMT -9
Third team is joining the joust. I did a bit of Frankenstein's work here. First unnamed knight got his head from Hertog van Brabant's bannerman (as his own was unfortunately split by duke's sword). I thought that such a dynamic pose just cannot go to waste. The backside of the horse of second unnamed knight was also assembled from other sources. Here is the link to full image. I'm planning to make 2 more sets of mounted knights and then go for some unmounted minis, civilians and perhaps some terrain.
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Post by madarchitect on Apr 29, 2013 0:43:04 GMT -9
Hmm... no comments on the last team. Must be difficult to find a game to use them I guess. I may have to do something about it... Anyway here is the fourth team. Here is the link to full image.
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Post by cowboyleland on Apr 29, 2013 4:37:51 GMT -9
I do love these figures! I just found the old (1980) TSR Camelot game on Scribd. I haven't played for more than thirty years and I can't get it to download! I have a friend who is an ardent gamer and who also runs a medieval swordplay school (using historical texts and a basis and he never teaches ANYTHING he can't find in a period text) He would be thrilled to play a game with these figures. I hope I can get it all together for his birthday! Looks like I will also need ladies, dwarves, kings, brigands, ogres, wow! Maybe I'll stick to the chits. I will want to cut them out without leaving a white border so I will be thickening up the black outlines in GIMP (unless you do it for me .)
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Post by Vermin King on Apr 29, 2013 12:00:34 GMT -9
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Post by gilius on Apr 30, 2013 4:19:51 GMT -9
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 12:50:08 GMT -9
Those came out just... GREAT!!! ...Must be difficult to find a game to use them I guess. I may have to do something about it... This! Sounds interesting!
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Post by madarchitect on May 4, 2013 10:42:53 GMT -9
Looks like I will also need ladies, dwarves, kings, brigands, ogres, wow! You have some needs cowboyleland ;D, but... You ask - you get. A king, a bear (gratis) and a maiden fair. Three folks to the left are murderers of Reinmar von Brennenberg and should make great brigands (I took the liberty of replacing one sword with an axe to make them a bit more rogue). The giant-ogre is another (after Merlin) loan from arthurian manuscripts - Chretien de Troyes “Yvain, le Chevalier au Lion” this time. The original Harpin la Montagne needed some face reconstruction (after a careful removal of Yvain's sword from the middle of his nose), also I modeled his club to resemble heraldic "wild man's" club as on the original ilustration his weapon looked like a fence plank. Here is the link to full image. Unfortunately no dwarves. It seems that XIII-XIV illustrators were oblivious of modern fantasy standards, and dwarves were virtually non existent in their art (dwarf sized characters were usually servants and other unimportant people, and not actual dwarfs). I hope the bear will make up for this unforgivable omission. ;D unless you do it for me . Not in the foreseeable future, sorry. I am painfully short on time lately, and it is not likely to change anytime soon. When I find some free hour or half I prefer to use it making new minis (or working on my horse/other designs) than editing previous ones. They are all png with transparent background so adding a border/stroke should be fairly easy (although I don't know GIMP much). I hope You understand, and the new minis will make it up for you. This! Sounds interesting! No promises. Just a thought for now, although one of those haunting/stalking thoughts.
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Post by cowboyleland on May 4, 2013 14:05:35 GMT -9
I was mostly joking. Thank you SO much. Yes, outlines are easy and I will do it myself. As for dwarves, perhaps I can just scale down another figure.
These look great! Thanks again!
Cowboy
Edit: I finally googled Codex Manesse and ended up at the university of Heidlberg website. I'm sure I can find enough ladies to do all the cards in the game and I bet I can used some of the little pages as dwarves. The dwarves in Arthurian stories aren't the Tolkien (or Snow White) dwarves that everyone copies these days.
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Post by madarchitect on May 15, 2013 0:05:30 GMT -9
The dwarves in Arthurian stories aren't the Tolkien (or Snow White) dwarves that everyone copies these days. Were there any? I don't recall any Arthurian tale with dwarves involved, at least in the canon works and not modern Arthurian based spinoffs or RPGs. Nearest I know to Arthurian are Reginn/Mime and Alberich the dvergar of Nibelung/Volsung related myths and sagas. But the dvergar were not dwarvish in size until late middle ages. Auberon from Huon de Bordeaux legends of Carolingian Cycle is the only one I know from period tales described clearly as a dwarf. Neither of them looked fairy tale like or Tolkienesque. Tolkienesque dwarves sadly became a "stamp of a dwarf" in almost all modern fiction, even folk/saga/myth based. This is unfortunate I think, as I usually find original dwarves or dvergar much more interesting. Please make some photos when you'll play the game. I'm very curious how it will turn out.
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Post by migibb on May 15, 2013 1:00:10 GMT -9
I always got the impression that 'dwarf' in Mallory was a term for squire or servant. Certainly it seemded that each knight had a 'dwarf' to do their bidding. (Now I have an image of knights being followed around byhunchbacked, Igor-like creatures - pretty much what Monty Python did I suppose...)
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Post by madarchitect on May 15, 2013 3:09:49 GMT -9
Hmm... Just made some dwarf research - my mistake they are there. It seems indeed that dwarfs usually play the role of squires, servants or messengers. With only some exceptions. It is funny that sometimes dwarves go missing in translation Eg. In some polish translations of Chretiens "Knight on a cart" the dwarf is replaced by a peasant. In Erec and Enide dwarf that hit Guinevres maid is replaced by an unnamed knight and so on. It's like authors used dwarfs as a synonym for "don't bother your thoughts too much with this character dear reader". It worked for me reading the tales I guess. There will be ~20 mounted knights counting the upcoming team, maybe more - that mean lot of dwarves hmm...
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Post by taltali on May 25, 2013 10:02:08 GMT -9
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Post by madarchitect on May 25, 2013 12:41:53 GMT -9
Sure! Why not. Nice find taltali. It is more matching the style and detail level of Nuremberg Chronicle mentioned by grendelsmother (or even some modern paper minis) than 150 yrs older Manesse Codex but still a great beast. Just the white outline between the griffin and black border looks weird and could be cleaned up. Anyway nice work, thanks for sharing:)
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Post by taltali on May 26, 2013 13:46:02 GMT -9
Sure! Why not. Nice find taltali. It is more matching the style and detail level of Nuremberg Chronicle mentioned by grendelsmother (or even some modern paper minis) than 150 yrs older Manesse Codex but still a great beast. As suggested here it the first griffin without white line and a second one from "Der Naturen Bloeme" ca 1287 ( adcs.home.xs4all.nl/NatBl/index.html ) even if it's a little earlier
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