Post by oldschooldm on Jul 9, 2013 10:06:26 GMT -9
"These kits comes supplied unpainted and require assembly". It would be interesting to compare prices, including PDF price, paper, blades, and ink. The assembly time is a wash, I think. But the comparing the paint to the ink would be illustrative. I think paper will be much cheaper - but I'm assuming that paint cost == ink cost, but I'm not sure if it will be 10x cheaper or more like 3x.
Post by spaceranger42 on Jul 9, 2013 10:25:36 GMT -9
What will really bake your noodle is that the production cost of these items is painfully low. I used to work for the company. Their mark up is freakin' scary. I don't buy their goods anymore due to how they treat their employees and their independant retailers.
Never smile too big, the gods may mistake it for hubris.
Might be fun to get a few people together and do a community project. Not something exactly like that item but something similar with similar tactical interest.
I was thinking the exact same thing. It would be a very interesting project to basically recreate GW's setup in paper, probably more 2.5d than 3d though. It would be a great way to show off the possibilities of paper and probably introduce a few more people to the paper side of the hobby.
I know i'm a cheap gamer. Even in my gaming group i'm the one that spend less in gaming. I'm also willing to understand the price for a logo, for a "firm", for a love.... but i can't really get why someone would want to spend that much for GAMES DECORATIONS. Because it is not about gaming. Gaming is the best time i can spend with friends or my sons. But we can buy a ruleset and play using books under a carpet.... pens, whatever. Adding decoration to the game adds to the experience, but not SO much..... I don't get it.
Jeez! I sent a few emails to GW many years ago (when Gorkamorka came out in 1997) and lamented at the fact that I was a full time worker with a professional job and a stable income and that they had just priced me out of the running for buying a product I was genuinely interested in and would support if the price was more reasonable. They actually replied and said it was a shame, but no recognition of the problem was ever made. Since then I've only mostly bought used GW sets or sets on clearance sales. Seeing as they make their old sets useless each time there is a new edition it's just a matter of time before everything goes on sale again. We should call the campaign "Paper or Plastic?"
Post by spaceranger42 on Jul 9, 2013 16:14:07 GMT -9
I think that a similar building to the tower could be built in five big pieces and several small bits for decoration. The redoubt walls could all be modular one or two piece items, once again with optional ginger bread items. The armament is no more than some folks have done who are making tanks and artillery. Maybe three or four shapes there.
Never smile too big, the gods may mistake it for hubris.
That is just a crazy price for a GW product, I mean don't get me wrong there stuff is awesome looking but way beyond my price range. It could be done in paper with more options and still be 100 times cheaper altogether, lol.
I have been doing this because I love 40k but I just can't afford it with a mortgage , car payments , student loans, teenagers, two dogs and food ... meh who needs food, anyway I just can't swing almost 2k on plastic scenery. so I have been making buildings and terrain and all kinds of stuff off the printer. then I ran into this forum and was all set to share my stuff until I saw that most people don't play 40k and so I just have been puttering around here not contributing a lot ... but now that you guys want to do what I have been doing all along !! WHOOT!! lets get it on!! we need to get organized shoot me an e-mail and tell me what building do you want me to take on!! firstname.lastname@example.org I'm ready !
I can't believe anyone would pay this! What made me laugh is that the store page actually had a drop down menu to change the quantity you want to purchase from one to ten! Who's going to spend over nineteen thousand dollars on ten of these?!?! While I love the universe and artwork, it's looking like the "40k" in the system title is referring to the cost of playing the game...
Any gamers in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, USA?
Post by bravesirkevin on Jul 10, 2013 5:30:53 GMT -9
Not really a fan of treating paper stuff as the "poor man's alternative"...
As for the GW set pictured above. None of us in this thread are in their intended target market, so they don't actually care if any of us buy it any more than Lamborghini is going to be bothered by one of us choosing to buy a second-hand Ford. It's hellishly expensive, but it's also entirely a luxury item that 95% of the community doesn't need or even want. On the other hand, those that do buy it are not really likely to fill their games room with the Best of Dave Graffam any time soon. They'll go pick paper models that adequately fill a need that can't be met by expensive plastic models, if they bother with paper at all.
A much better comparison would be between scratchbuilding scenery the old fashioned way with polystyrene, polyfilla and lots of paint, sand and patience. That's an artform and a craft that takes a lot of time and doesn't always give great results. Not everyone has the skill to create glorious looking castle ruins out of scrap and not everyone has the patience to paint it to perfection. Paper stuff really does enable the average gamer with very little time on their hands to create something that looks amazing, is entirely practical and is useful very quickly. In a lot of cases, the paper stuff uses a lot of the same materials that scratchbuilders would use (foam core being a good example) so a well built paper model can often be just as strong as a scratchbuilt one. There's really nothing stopping someone from enhancing a paper model in all the traditional ways, like adding static grass or polystyrene rocks and rubble so a nice paper model could look even better than a really good scratchbuilt piece.. The main difference is that a good paper model will look amazing in a fraction of the time because all of that painted detailing does not need to be done by hand anymore, and that someone with only a modicum of skill can get really decent terrain.
Post by glennwilliams on Jul 10, 2013 5:59:02 GMT -9
I could afford this with some planning (and plastic with a magnetic strip on the back)--but it's more than a transatlantic cruise I just booked. As to relative cost, it's just ink and paper minus my free time since I can do other things while it prints. That horrendously expensive Sci-fi fort with gate on Forge World is why I designed the Tango Prime series--it came out right after I got back from a week in Venice and would have cost more.
The odd thing is some of the very best card stock terrain WAS Games Workshop--they had a series of boxed models with plastic connectors from Necromunda and there were some nice models printed in White Dwarf. Ah well.
Post by spaceranger42 on Jul 10, 2013 6:19:14 GMT -9
Kev, you are totally right about the target audience. As a former red shirt and assistant manager I can say this though; GW employees are trained to actually prime regular customers for up sells and add ons in order to create the need for the more expensive product in someone who doesn't really need it. I also do not see papercraft models as the poor mans alternative. I can do some pretty sharp work when it comes to modeling, I used to build entire tables for our store and others. I am also not a bad painter as you sort of have to be better than decent because you have to teach other people, but I could do those things before I ever worked for the evil empire. I love paper crafting because I can make use of my digital art skills, I find it far easier to store the results of my work and the community is much more interesting so far. Glenn is also right, GW used to have some great houses and what not and the Necromunda and Mordheim boxes had nice chip board terrain. But they won't make money off anything that can be easily re produced so they won't sell that stuff anymore.
Post by bravesirkevin on Jul 10, 2013 6:56:55 GMT -9
Games Workshop is a publicly traded company listed on the London Stock Exchange. There was a time when they were gamers catering to gamers; but now, for better or worse, their responsibility is to their shareholders. They have a mandate to make a profit, and things that run contrary to that could actually get them into very hot water, so yeah, they've moved over to tangible things that they can sell profitably and anything that's no longer profitable is no longer a priority.
I personally don't see this as particularly evil on their part. It's just the nature of business. I also don't feel sorry for the fans as the gap that was there has been filled by many others, some of whom are actually doing an even better job of creating the stuff than GW's team ever did. The world's a better place for everyone really.
Post by spaceranger42 on Jul 10, 2013 7:27:17 GMT -9
I don't mean evil in general when I refer to GW. I just found out the hard way that they treat their employees pretty poorly. Here in the states there is a huge disconnect between middle mangement and upper management so you see loss of accountability and when something goes pear shaped, well lets just say that crap rolls downhill at an exponential rate. I don't regret working for them, it was mostly fun. I like the minis though I have stopped buying their products new or from them. I am just happy that there are other games and other companies to run to these days. Way back when GW was pretty much it unless you were an historical wargamer or had laid hands on some of the original material that eventually became games like D&D or Warhammer.
aaron, I feel your pain on being the only 40 year old in the class Please do not take it amiss if I re texture one of your jet bikes, I feel the need to hot rod something
I don't feel bad at all I made them all with the intent that people would re-color them into their own scheme. think of it like a starter kit where most of the heavy lifting is done for you. you just have to finish off with colors and textures that suit your army. depending on the colors you use each jet bike costs about 5 cents, and will take about 2 hours to cut out with scissors and put together by hand. the wraith lord, knight and guard will take a bit longer and the cost will almost double to about 10 cents per model ... the knight will probably cost about 12 cents .... not sure it's not finished yet LOL
I have been banging away at the eldar army now for a while and with the help of others ( even if they didn't know it ) and some creative elbow grease I'm almost done with every unit they make for the eldar. about half way on the tau, Nids and necrons were next though admittedly with the new crons they are going to take some time.
kevin I totally agree with you in that increasing the prices has forced people to get more creative and it's made the world of gaming a better place. I'm even making a whole new table top war game based on my comic book scrapjack. it's going to be a complete game for about 10 bucks, it will have 5 complete armies the rules and terrain all in a single printable pdf. I would love it if people bought it but if they steel it and it gets popular then I win also because it's really just a marketing ploy for my comic book. so either way I win. but I wouldn't have done any of this if GW was still a viable game for the average person to play.
Post by old squirmydad on Jul 10, 2013 13:12:20 GMT -9
I unpacked the first copy of 40K:Rogue Trader that arrived in Alaska, and that started my descent into hardcore tabletop gaming miniature addiction...I've had lot of fun with their products over the years and I still buy the occasional clearance item for fun. But no way am I or anybody else I game with willing to pay the new prices, the old ones were bad enough.
You're right, there's tons of good minis and games around now, besides, it plays kinda slow...
LEGAL NOTE, (ahem); It is the policy of this forum to put anything of questionable IP into the forum area called Fan Art Member Exlusives. cardboard-warriors.proboards.com/board/37/fan-art-member-exclusives If you do proceed with this project, as a courtesy to the Forum owners, please have this discussion and place any links to completed projects there. Thanks.
If you are not charging for it, they can't do anything but sulk.
Not entirely true... They still do own the trademark on all of those symbols and designs, and the fact that the designs very closely resemble the originals means that they can be called derivative works and GW can thus claim that they partly own the copyright to those works. The fact that they're free doesn't mean that GW can not do anything about them, it just means that it's not worth it for them to shut it down. I believe that just last year they forced a 3d printing repository to remove downloadable space marine mini models. GW may take action if they felt it had the potential to interfere with their best interests. Fan art's a particularly messy snarl because it whizes all over trademark and copyright law, but in a lot of cases prosecuting it would be a publicity nightmare for the company and, in some ways, allowing it amounts to some really good free advertising.
Best advice I can give is to make stuff that would be quite usable as a Warhammer 40K figure, but without directly copying any of their iconography or distinctive features. Call Skaven Wererats and don't use the triangle emblem. Call Spacemarines marines and replace the chest eagle, and change up the armour and use your own helmet design. Not only will this keep you out of hot water with the court system, but it will allow you to divorce yourself from them completely once you're known and go in your own direction with your own line of products that you hold the trademark and copyright to.
I've found this topic really fascinating, as much from a philosophical angle as anything else. My experiences regarding Games Workshop are clearly atypical compared to the comments above, largely because I lost all interest in them when they stopped selling products that weren't entirely their own back in the mid 1980s. I appreciate many folks writing here probably won't even remember/know they did this, but once upon a time in a galaxy far, far away... I bought my original D&D booklets from GW back in '76-'77, for instance. Consequently, I bypassed the whole Warhammer concept entirely, except as an onlooker via hobby magazines other than "White Dwarf".
From what I've seen in more recent times, while I know it's popular to brand GW as this monstrous creation that nobody likes, that's not truly representative of what's happened. Everyone writing here with a viewpoint on GW and the Warhammeresque gaming ideas seems to have benefitted from their involvement - at least at some earlier stage if no longer - and it seems a lot of youngsters were brought into the wargaming hobby generally this way, for example.
Also, I'm aware simply from contacts with various cast-figure manufacturers in Britain in recent years, that several small businesses here have started on the back of disgruntled former GW employees wishing to stay in the industry, creating marvellous new figures and scenery, which at the same time has allowed them to feel they're able to get a little of their own back on GW for how they were treated (or their perceptions of such) while working for them.
Both of these elements seem to have been very positive for gaming generally, even if they've come about as more or less accidental and unintended byproducts of GW's purely commercial agenda. And if that GW-antipathy encourages people here to come up with new ideas for paper minis and scenery as well, nobody seems the loser.
Kev's quite right in that avoiding unwanted copyright wrangles is important in all this, not simply from the legal side, as worrying about things like this that aren't necessary wastes time and energy better spent being creative. Plus working this way is likely to be a positive endeavour when preparing new figures and so forth, as it encourages more thinking "outside the box".
And yes, I don't see building and using paper minis and scenery as anything other than hobby aspects in their own right, not some sort of low-grade alternative to cast items, as I'm happy to work with both or either as best-suits what I'm wanting to achieve. Though I have to say, a lot of my scratchbuilding over time has also been done using paper and card rather than more "traditional" materials, largely because I've long been very comfortable working with paper and card, and have similarly found their benefits through reduced weight especially have helped retain their appeal down the decades.
Post by emergencyoverride on Jul 11, 2013 6:24:54 GMT -9
$1900! Good night! They have completely lost their minds. Glad I decided awhile ago to stop giving them money. The games were fine for the most part, but their prices have completely lost touch with reality. I guess their new target demographic is anyone that makes $100,000 a year.
cowboyleland: Putting on my pedantic hat: some of you are mis-using the term "begs the question." Some day I will make myself a paper pedantic hat.
Nov 14, 2019 6:02:10 GMT -9
Vermin King: I wouldn't hold my breath. He used to be very active on a French forum, so I asked him if he was going to be back there. no response yet
Nov 13, 2019 9:04:45 GMT -9
squirmydad: Crap. I hope he's able to recover and republish his work.
Nov 13, 2019 8:57:48 GMT -9
Vermin King: I sent Mauther an email. My guess is that it will be inaccessible while he is migrating things over to Blogger
Nov 13, 2019 7:45:54 GMT -9
wyvern: Today though, the Papermau blog is no longer accessible unless you have an invitation (and of course you can't get one unless you visit the blog, Catch 22). Anyone got any better news about it?
Nov 13, 2019 6:22:34 GMT -9
wyvern: I know Papermau's blog has been having problems because of virus infections lately - it's fired-up my antivirus system every time I've visited there for some weeks, though he did write and say the problem was resolved a while back (it wasn't).
Nov 13, 2019 6:21:08 GMT -9
Vermin King: I suppose it could have been worse. She could boost someone up in a positive uplifting supportive manner...
Nov 9, 2019 10:25:44 GMT -9
Vermin King: Okay ... double negatives are bad, but how about triple saying the same thing. I just heard someone on TV saying, 'I found we really boosted each other up in an uplifting supportive manner'. And that was probably meaningful to her. duh
Nov 9, 2019 10:11:48 GMT -9
Vermin King: Be careful what secrets you let out of the bag
Nov 5, 2019 12:33:45 GMT -9
oldschooldm: ... SO ... One of my players now has a cutter and has joined the forum. :-) For the first time I have to worry about WIP spoilers. :-) Just kidding! Welcome h0meralm1ghty!
Nov 5, 2019 7:40:19 GMT -9
woosh: I FINISHED THE M722 LRV AND I LOVE IT. will post pics when i get the chance
Nov 4, 2019 1:10:23 GMT -9
Vermin King: Back in my younger days, I tried to get 'Trick or Drink' running. We would go door to door in costume with our Halloween-themed rocks glasses in hand.
Nov 3, 2019 4:39:43 GMT -9
shep: On the other hand, Halloween is not that big for kids, here in Germany, anyways. It's more an excuse for teens and young adults to dress up and have a party... and for the latter ones to get drunk beyond speaking their native tongue...
Nov 3, 2019 1:44:29 GMT -9
shep: "A ninja, a mage, a knight, and a fish enter a tavern..." Wait this is no joke??!? Great costumes! The kids in my neighborhood were, as always, either too shy or too lazy to climb up into the third floor (40 steps, man, 40 steps!)...
Nov 3, 2019 1:42:29 GMT -9
forgedchaos: or to traslate
Nov 2, 2019 13:14:13 GMT -9
squirmydad: Every adventuring party needs a fish to guide them.
Nov 1, 2019 8:14:51 GMT -9
WackyAnne: This year's adventuring party - no sexy witch but fish!
Nov 1, 2019 1:07:18 GMT -9