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Post by mesper on Sept 6, 2013 15:06:22 GMT -9
Hi All! I'm considering brand new sub-series (within PERMES Historical Series) called IMPERIVM ROMANVM=>>BTW: which cover you like the most?Sets which should/could/might be included within Imperium Romanum series:- Gladiators (a big one, with animals, spectators etc.) - Legionnaires #1 (Republic) - Legionnaires #2 (Empire) - Legionnaires #3 (Fall of the Empire / Byzantine?) - Roman Cavalry (Equites) - Roman Chariots - Roman Patricians/Noblemen - Roman Citizens - Roman War Machines: Scorpio, Onager, Battering Ram and Siege Tower(not sure although 2D or 2.5D ?) - Roman Scenery Pack (within EASY SCENERY) Then perhaps (assuming that Romans succeeded and time slots depended - so not sure if/when) pack of some "enemies and allies": - Carthaginians (with War Elephants, African Cavalry and Balear Islands mercenaries) - Germans (Goths, Visigoths, Vandals etc. barbaric tribes) - Gauls - Celts/Picts and Bretons (?) - Huns (horde) - Sarmatian Cavalry (?) Some well known, historical personae (single figurines): - Julius Caesar - Augustus, Trajan (?) - Scipio Africanus ( ) - Hannibal - Vercingetorix- Attila the Hun - Alaric- etc. (?) Well, any thoughts, comments, suggestions regarding covers and the whole planned series?
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Post by Parduz on Sept 6, 2013 15:43:03 GMT -9
As i ask from ... forever please, PLEASE, release both one set of Romans and one of Enemies. Say that you make the Legionnaires #1: do also the proper, opposed enemy (Carthaginians infantry?) so i can buy both and start using them IMMEDIATELY. We have a lot of armies without the related enemies (One Monk elf army can only fight against the undead army, and that it's a lusxury... your historical figures have no that option - i mean, if i want to have the same miniature style on the table- ) I know i'm pretty alone in this way to see the releases (Labrat made a poll some years ago, 'cause i was telling him the same things)... but in the end, when you get "burned" by a genre, we always are missing a "complete game set".... hope you get what i mean
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Post by mesper on Sept 6, 2013 16:16:51 GMT -9
As i ask from ... forever please, PLEASE, release both one set of Romans and one of Enemies. Say that you make the Legionnaires #1: do also the proper, opposed enemy (Carthaginians infantry?) so i can buy both and start using them IMMEDIATELY. Yep, got the idea! But I'd like to admit that actually there already are PERMES Greeks and Macedonians - vide Battle of Cynoscephalae, then there also Persians (although cavalry and chariots are still missing). So having (incoming) Romans and mentioned set(s) you can arrange at least some of the ancient battles/games.Still I do perfectly understood your point. Actually that was my idea when I published (printed) issues of Kartonowa Armia: both Romans and Cartaginians in ONE issue and thereafter Roman Empire Legionnaires together with Gauls and Goths Rome - Republic and Carthago Rome - Empire and GothsThing is that some of these figurines, at least in my opinion, need really serious remake (colours mostly) - so that's the major reason why some of these might be shifted/delayed. So as a kinda series teaser/appetizer I'd like to release some more "modern" quality sets - like gladiators, cavalry, patricians - while meanwhile step-by-step remaking Carthaginians etc. Therefore I'll consider your request and will try to release Carthaginians if not together then shortly after Republic Legionnaires.
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 6, 2013 16:17:57 GMT -9
I totally agree with you, Parduz. One side only is of far less use than two opponents. At least in war games.
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Post by cowboyleland on Sept 6, 2013 19:25:48 GMT -9
What about doing some Roman civil wars? Spartacus revolt, Brutus vs Antony (am I remembering right?) or Octavius vs Marc Antony? I'm not sure about the period your thinking about but you could do one style of armour and with a few minor changes have roman soldiers that could fight each other or join forces when you (re)release the foreign hordes.
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Post by onemonk on Sept 6, 2013 19:55:47 GMT -9
Your style is perfect for ancients! The gladiators look great and I'm sure you can really make an effective roman and enemies armies. Spartans would also be cool with the next 300 movie coming out. JIM
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Post by squirmydad on Sept 6, 2013 20:24:50 GMT -9
Gladiators would be great, one set gives you both sides of an arena battle.
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Post by spaceranger42 on Sept 6, 2013 20:32:10 GMT -9
I LOVE IT! I would love historically accurate gladiators. I would totally have to build a ludus and an arena for them.
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Post by pavaro on Sept 6, 2013 22:53:00 GMT -9
I support the idea of ββthe different sides of the conflict. Sam doing (quite slowly ...) a series of WWI with several countries and their armies. As for the cover ... I think it is slightly better on the right (purple). Less brutal.
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Post by wyvern on Sept 7, 2013 1:53:18 GMT -9
Might need to think about the name again. "Imperivm Romanvm" and "Imperivm Romanvm II" are/were historical board wargames on the Roman empire (there's a surprise...), designed by Albert A. Nofi, and published in 1978 and 1984 respectively. I think the original was by SPI, while "II" was West End Games. I imagine somebody, probably large and corporate, will still own the copyright to the names and games, though I don't think either have been in print for many years.
While this might all be fine, my immediate thought on seeing the topic title was someone was resurrecting the boardgame (it's a long-standing favourite of mine in its "II" incarnation), so at the least, there may be a conflict of interest, at least for people where "ancient wargamer" may not simply apply to the historical period involved...
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Post by Parduz on Sept 7, 2013 2:56:47 GMT -9
Wyvern, a question from an ignorant: Is'nt "Imperium Romanum" just a name like "Europe", "middle east" or "Samurai" ? Someone can really claim that two words as "a property"? Also 'cause is not even another boardgame (i understand that "Car wars" can't be used in a boardgame but may be used as a title in a newspaper article about something happened), but just an "information" about a set of drawings / paper miniatures...
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shep
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Post by shep on Sept 7, 2013 5:41:41 GMT -9
Wow, this is a great idea! If I may wish for more/other sets? How about Praetorian Guard Frumentarii et Vigiles Empire at the German Limes (incl. scenery) Empire at Hadrian's Wall (incl. scenery) And, Parduz, you are absolutely right, "Imperium Romanum" is a general historic term that does not fall under personal or intellectual property or copyright laws.
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Post by mesper on Sept 7, 2013 9:36:02 GMT -9
Imperium Romanum ( Latin) = Roman Empire. But in fact "problem" with this series sub-heading is that there will be some pre-empire / Republican period content included, so I'm afraid some users might rant...
Off topic - ad. ranting I was kinda surprised when mine Templars Cavalry set received... 3 stars rating just because of 2 non-historical figurines (which were added as BONUS figurines - exactly the same figurines were within this set with historical colours) IMO it was not fair/justified - big, great set with bonus artworks etc... and I was kinda punished with -2 stars because of 2 bonus(!!!) figurines?!?
Templars - Mounted Knights
I didn't answered for this review but well, after this issue I'm much more careful with adding bonus figurines within historical series.
Back to thread.
So probably just " Rome - part nn" or " Romans - set nn" ? But then what with Rome's enemies - all those Gauls, Huns, Germanic tribes etc. => dedicated sub-series tittled " Enemies of Rome" / "Rome - enemies and allies" Spartans would also be cool with the next 300 movie coming out. JIM Good point. And I already have Persians! Wow, this is a great idea! If I may wish for more/other sets? How about Praetorian Guard Frumentarii et Vigiles Empire at the German Limes (incl. scenery) Empire at Hadrian's Wall (incl. scenery) I like the separate Praetorians set idea! Originally I was going to put some Praetorians figurines within Legionnaires II (Empire) set. But dedicated set might be much more interesting (and more historical accurate at the same time as these guardians formed separate military unit). Limitanei - late Empire and early Byzantine period - might be interesting - but perhaps it would be better to save this for Byzantine Empire sub-series? Frumentari and Vigiles (kinda Secret Service and City kohorts/watchmen) - not sure if I'd like to go that deep. Maybe separate set with some "supporting" figurines/characters (imperial messengers/post also belong into this category) ?
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Post by wyvern on Sept 8, 2013 0:34:32 GMT -9
I'd agree about the general nature of the name if it's spelt "Imperium Romanum". However, "Imperivm Romanvm" and adding a numeral after it is how the second version of the boardgame was named, so that could shift things into a greyer area. And yes, because the ancient Romans were often carving names into stone, that's how we end up with "v" not "u", so the argument could cut both ways.
However, if the series will include non-Empire troops and enemies, while it catches the eye, it won't be entirely accurate. People wanting historical minis might not think to check this if the name appears to exclude Republican forces and that's their period of interest. So maybe Armies & Enemies of Ancient Rome or just Armies & Enemies of Rome? That would also chime with Parduz's comments about the importance of having both an appropriate period Roman and opposing army released together, and would work equally with the Republic period and the civil wars (that is, one side will be always treating Rome as "theirs", even if they don't occupy it).
Somebody's probably already copyrighted that for a figures range too, of course...
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Post by cowboyleland on Sept 8, 2013 4:07:25 GMT -9
Actually, it is my understanding that the title of a work can not be copyrighted. There are at least two movies with the title "Crash" for example. The potential confusion over using "Imperivm Romanvm" if the republican period is also going to be covered is something to consider.
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shep
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Post by shep on Sept 8, 2013 7:38:04 GMT -9
I think I can present you with a suitable name that catches all aspects (Empire, Republic and Enemies): Roma AeternaThis Latin term means eternal Rome, which gives you all Roman eras from 753 B.C. up until the fall of Rome and the rise of the Byzantine Empire in the 5th century A.D. And since Rome's enemies are an integral part of Roman history, they are included as well... For the individual sets, you could simply add a second (smaller) title, like Roma Aeterna Gladiators or Roma Aeterna Legions of the Empire etc.
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Post by WackyAnne on Sept 8, 2013 7:40:41 GMT -9
I don't know the fine points of the law, but my early favourite computer game had to name from Hero's Quest to Quest for Glory, because there was already a boardgame called Hero's Quest (which, oddly enough, I never saw until this year). And Apple had difficulty with iTunes and its entry into the music market over Apple Records, the Beatles' label... So, the same or similar names, even for tangential overlap, certainly does cause problems. You don't want to confuse either your fans, or the exisiting Imperium Romanum fans, for whatever intersection there might be between the two. Best to change it now before it becomes one, especially as you plan to expand your coverage beyond purely Roman Empire figures. What about World of Rome (Mundus Romanum? is that right?), or something similar? EDIT: I love Shep's suggestion of Roma Aeterna - captures a breadth of time and setting that will allow you a great deal of flexibility, not to mention it sounds cool As to your initial question as to the best packaging - I like the royal purple best, for the colour, and the action shot of the gladiator, but prefer the text layout of the red version.Oh, and where's the Etruscan love? Rome couldn't have been Rome without appropriating Etruscan engineering, among other things...
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shep
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Post by shep on Sept 8, 2013 7:48:01 GMT -9
What about World of Rome (Mundus Romanum? is that right?), or something similar? As far as I remember from university, in historic science the term Mundus Romanum is at least for early to high medieval times used for the pope's claim to rule over/control all Christianity... EDIT: I checked with my old books, and that should be Mundus Romanorum. However, mundus had a second and in Ancient Rome more important meaning: A mundus was a location, where the worlds of the living (the world) and of the dead (the underworld) met. In Rome, there was such a mundus in the Umbilicus urbis Romae, a small temple in the center of the forum, that was also the exact center of Rome and the point from where the miles into the Roman world were measured (see wikipedia).
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Post by Parduz on Sept 8, 2013 8:14:48 GMT -9
Oh, and where's the Etruscan love? Rome couldn't have been Rome without appropriating Etruscan engineering, among other things... If i'm not wrong, once defeated by swords, the etruscan were "absorbed", with great apreciation from the romans. Basically, there were no aspect of the romans that have not been influenced from the etruscan.... so, in the end, everything roman is "loving the etruscan"
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Post by mesper on Sept 8, 2013 10:42:23 GMT -9
I think I can present you with a suitable name that catches all aspects (Empire, Republic and Enemies): Roma Aeterna...For the individual sets, you could simply add a second (smaller) title, like ... Hmm... sounds good and is really more flexible - so THANKS! I'd however use it as sub-tittle (name of the whole series with set numbers) so individual set tittle could be bigger and eye catching: GLADIATORS Roma Aeterna #1or PRAETORIANS Roma Aeterna #NN
Then some kind of banner with "Enemies of Rome" could be added when applicable. As to your initial question as to the best packaging - I like the royal purple best, for the colour, and the action shot of the gladiator, but prefer the text layout of the red version. Something like this (I'm trying to test various layouts, including banners and promo/info):
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Post by cowboyleland on Sept 8, 2013 11:31:51 GMT -9
I like the one on the left. The red banner in the corner is less intrusive but it won't be missed.
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Post by WackyAnne on Sept 8, 2013 11:50:42 GMT -9
Oh, and where's the Etruscan love? Rome couldn't have been Rome without appropriating Etruscan engineering, among other things... If i'm not wrong, once defeated by swords, the etruscan were "absorbed", with great apreciation from the romans. Basically, there were no aspect of the romans that have not been influenced from the etruscan.... so, in the end, everything roman is "loving the etruscan" My love for the Etruscans, and archaeology in general, was ignited by the National Geographic issue released in time for my 12th birthday (June 1988). I've always, before and since that glorious dedication, had a fascination for the mysterious and marginal cultures of history. The artwork of the Etruscans was so evocative and passionate, especially the frescoes - very like the Minoans who I also love. Also love the metalwork, some techniques of which are so intricate they've been lost to time and not quite reproducible to this day. They built roads and aqueducts, had a vast trading network, and our alphabet owes more to them than the Romans, who only further refined what the Etruscans had adapted from the Greek alphabet... They ruled the kingdom of Rome (7 kings? google it), until ousted to form the Republic. By the time of Jesus, they'd been absorbed into Roman civilization entirely, and their language lost to history for two thousand years. They raised the status of women to near-equals (at least by ancient standards), unlike both Greeks and Romans. They also knew how to party, apparently
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Post by WackyAnne on Sept 8, 2013 12:45:48 GMT -9
As to your initial question as to the best packaging - I like the royal purple best, for the colour, and the action shot of the gladiator, but prefer the text layout of the red version. Something like this (I'm trying to test various layouts, including banners and promo/info): Fantastic! Colour and layout look great! The purple and gold make a bold statement, and stand out from your previous preferred blue/red theme, suggesting this is a large new series you're starting. As to highlighting the number of minis, it's a difficult choice. Looking over your previous products, you've favoured the circle as element, and it's worked well. But I prefer the corner placement of example #1 here, and red as the colour background. However, the larger number vs. item in the circular element of #2 works best to highlight the feature. I'm not sure what work best: a red circle in the corner, or a banner altered to have the font size enlarged for the number (or just a red corner overall, with the "#" on a different line from the "MINIS").
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Post by Parduz on Sept 8, 2013 13:30:13 GMT -9
My love for the Etruscans, and archaeology in general, was ignited by the National Geographic issue released in time for my 12th birthday (June 1988). I've always, before and since that glorious dedication, had a fascination for the mysterious and marginal cultures of history. I'll wait you here, then. My town (Bologna) is born around a Roman camp, which was built on the remaining of Felsina, an etruscan (and Villanovan, even before) town. We will never have a metro, 'cause each time they dig a hole deep enough they find etrurian stuffs which will require 5 years to be recovered from the ground Just google for "Marzabotto" (not about the orrid WWII episodes, but for the etruscan necropolis) and you'll come here in no time
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Post by WackyAnne on Sept 8, 2013 13:49:34 GMT -9
One last thing, about the set & series titles. I can't decide whether I prefer the alternating colouration in #1 or #2 better. I love the two-tone effect, it really draws the eyes, while the plain white falls a little flat. In your other projects, you generally have both titles in the two-tone, but I can see how you want to further differentiate between set & series here. I don't know if you'd want to try something different with the blank white one (whichever you choose it to be, perhaps the series): a dimensional font, something suggestive of chiseled text. Something somewhat like this: preview.turbosquid.com/Preview/Content_2009_07_16__17_37_20/font_nicholas_roman_sq05.jpg41a2cc29-cffb-4d3d-81e6-a4ce13f92295Larger.jpg ...
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Post by WackyAnne on Sept 8, 2013 13:53:42 GMT -9
My love for the Etruscans, and archaeology in general, was ignited by the National Geographic issue released in time for my 12th birthday (June 1988). I've always, before and since that glorious dedication, had a fascination for the mysterious and marginal cultures of history. I'll wait you here, then. My town (Bologna) is born around a Roman camp, which was built on the remaining of Felsina, an etruscan (and Villanovan, even before) town. We will never have a metro, 'cause each time they dig a hole deep enough they find etrurian stuffs which will require 5 years to be recovered from the ground Just google for "Marzabotto" (not about the orrid WWII episodes, but for the etruscan necropolis) and you'll come here in no time Thanks, Parduz, I may take you up on that offer , should my sister and her Italian boyfriend tie the knot one day. They are in Italy right now, around Milan, visiting his family. While my interests archaeologically speaking have largely shifted from the Old World to the New, I would be blissfully happy wandering thru fields and ruins, streets and museums in Tuscany. And would probably gain 10 kilos from eating too many delicious dishes!
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Post by mesper on Sept 8, 2013 17:19:15 GMT -9
Testing... testing... Oh, I know I'm exaggerating and kinda spaming... @ WackyAnne - like chiseled font/style idea - thanks! I have to search for some appropriate font with rights for commercial use, so in the meantime just emulated effect using simple emboss function. Not sure regarding "Enemies of Rome" covers though. I'd like to somehow distinguish these sets and at the same time maintain cohesion with whole "Roman" series. Adding another colour for cover might be some solution but honestly speaking I'm not convinced. // then it would be not that easy to pick good colour - blue is already used, gray/silver could be better for Sci-Fi and I'd like to save GREENS for future series - actually not planning such series at the moment but who knows... some modern infantry or WWII? So if applying new colour then probably black... //
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Post by WackyAnne on Sept 8, 2013 20:15:31 GMT -9
Looking great, knew you'd have to find a commercial-rights font so just googled a quick example of what I meant.
You've got a lot of options in play here, and I'll have to take a look at them when I've got more sleep.
Two quick notes though
1) Could you use a somewhat different shade of purple? or red like your original alternate? I like the look of the green, but understand wanting to save it for another series too...
2) Carthage is the appropriate spelling for the nation in English, or perhaps you want Carthaginians for the people, since you have the Germans. Hmmm, that raises the question should they be Goths/Visigoths... been too long since I played around in that era of history...
Long past my bedtime, so goodnight for now...
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Post by pavaro on Sept 8, 2013 21:15:55 GMT -9
As I look at the cover to me like the old times. To cut out the Romans to cut out....
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shep
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Post by shep on Sept 8, 2013 22:08:44 GMT -9
I like the separate Praetorians set idea! Originally I was going to put some Praetorians figurines within Legionnaires II (Empire) set. But dedicated set might be much more interesting (and more historical accurate at the same time as these guardians formed separate military unit). Limitanei - late Empire and early Byzantine period - might be interesting - but perhaps it would be better to save this for Byzantine Empire sub-series? Frumentari and Vigiles (kinda Secret Service and City kohorts/watchmen) - not sure if I'd like to go that deep. Maybe separate set with some "supporting" figurines/characters (imperial messengers/post also belong into this category) ? Gosh, this thread is moving so fast that I overread this answer to my ideas... I agree that frumentarii and vigiles (also firefighters, by the way) would go too deep under wargaming aspects, but not for roleplaying purposes. Instead of having their own set, you could add some as extras into another set, like for example "Roman Citizens" or something along that line... As for the covers, man, they look awesome. I hope we won't have to wait too long till the sets will be available... About the covers of the ENEMIES-subseries, I think you should either stick with the same background colour or perhaps try a dark grey/washed out black. And I think you should name these sets like this: GERMAN TRIBES Enemies of Rome and in a circle XX Minis for ROMA AETERNA This (once again) gives you all options at once and even leaves you the corner ribbon as an additional option for let's say "incl. SCENERY"...
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