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Post by dungeonmistress on Mar 27, 2014 17:34:05 GMT -9
Beautiful!
Is the light coming through between pillars? Not to be picky but, about the light, it seems a little 'foggy' and perhaps a little too white? Some of that 'fog' would look really cool at the base of the waterfall, make it look more like mist or spray from the water crashing down. A little yellowish moss or fungus near the waterfall would a natural look, but only where the light barely reaches.
Are those Dwarven Runes on the steps? Very cool! Do you know what they say? Love the dead leaves, the moss and the stream. The overall look is great!
Your talent just blows me away!
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Post by Nemo on Mar 28, 2014 0:08:27 GMT -9
You're right, dungeonmistress, you're not the only one who made me notice that the light is wrong Some of that 'fog' would look really cool at the base of the waterfall, make it look more like mist or spray from the water crashing down. Very nice idea, I hadn't thought about that. Thanks
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Post by WackyAnne on Mar 28, 2014 2:39:47 GMT -9
So, I'm halfway to the end of this new set and I may have just finished the entrance to the cave system: <snip> I meant it to be the entrance of an ancient place inhabited by Dwarves, now abandoned with nature being the only occupant. First of all - it's beautiful! Second of all - I find it a little offputting that the two highest spots, the stepped entrance and the source of the waterfall, are at near opposite ends of the chamber, and that the water flows somewhat towards the entrance. As a visual composition it looks nice and balanced, but when you consider the 3D aspect of it, I'd think that the waterfall would be coming from the general direction of the entrance and flowing away from it, deeper into the dwarven stronghold... It's not a deal breaker, by any means, but since others have addressed the lighting, it's the only possible criticism I can come up with
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Post by wyvern on Mar 28, 2014 2:59:55 GMT -9
The doorway light's also hiding too many details that you've painstakingly put in, Nemo! We don't want to "lose" artwork that way! Some extra greenery by the water channel where it's in the light too, I think, not just moss near the waterfall and pool. I don't have a problem with the water channel's location/direction - the Dwarves could have altered the natural flow after all - but the water perhaps needs some minor tweaking. Some of the white flow lines look as if they're on a thin film of water only (a little too bright and "obvious", perhaps?), and the water should look darker/deeper where the channel is narrower (because it has to carry the same amount of water as the wider/shallower places). Maybe add a "proper" Dwarven archway where the stream channel exits through the right-hand wall as well? Especially love the leaves and greenery near the doorway, plus the spindly "stork-leg" stalagmite/tite column-shadows. And the overall look is wonderful, as always
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Post by dungeonmistress on Mar 28, 2014 7:21:46 GMT -9
I used to live in Hawaii and one of my favorite things to do there was to go and stand close enough to a waterfall that I could feel the water mist on my face. The Pali was a favorite spot. When I look at your waterfall it reminded me of the Pali, which is why I mentioned the mist/fog. In the areas by the waterfall where the light reaches even minimally, you would see moss, lichen and other fungi would be apparent. wyvern is right about showing the depth of the steam in its narrower spots. That would would lend it a more natural feel. If you 'unfog' the light and change the hue just a bit, you would uncover the beautiful greenery you put in there. It would also make the runes show up a little more. I have more ideas, but no time now. I'll check in later!
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Post by Nemo on Mar 28, 2014 7:52:30 GMT -9
Ok, first of all, thank you guys. As usual your inputs are much appreciated: lots of good ideas and perspectives that I try to follow as much as I can or know. So: I changed the lighting of all the tile (not just what's coming in from the entrance), in the attempt to give the impression of a higher ground around the waterfall and thus justify the course of the water stream. I added some details as you said and I tried to enhance the visibility of some others that were already there (keep in mind that something always gets lost in reduction both of size and resolution to post the work here). As of now I'm quite happy of the overall look of the tile and I think I will go on with other things. When everything will be completed, I will come back to see it with "fresh" eyes. Feel free to keep leaving comments, though, I will surely consider them during the "second round"
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Post by cowboyleland on Mar 28, 2014 8:32:23 GMT -9
I meant to post some thoughts yesterday, but it seems the post was lost. What I said was that this tile is so beautiful it could make a very good reward for the END of a dungeon. Imagine being in gloomy darkness for weeks and then coming around a turn in the tunnel to see this. It would be like the first day of a long awaited spring.
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Post by dungeonmistress on Mar 28, 2014 11:44:14 GMT -9
OH! YES! The waterfall looks just awesome, now! The lighting, the lichen, the look of height and depth all combine into real awesomeness! I agree with cowboyleland, what better reward for completing a dark and dank dungeon crawl then to come into a chamber like this one that speaks of light, hope and renewal. You just have to stop and say: "Ahhh! I can smell the lush green growing things renewing my strength after my trials and the soft kiss of mist from the waterfall cleaning my dirt smudged face and soul. We did it! We survived...". How's that for drama and atmosphere? Those runes look great, a little to great, if you get my drift. If this is an ancient cavern, then some of those runes would be a little worn, don't you think? (I still want to know what they say... .) Plus, I really liked wyvern's idea of some sort of Dwarven made archway where the stream exits the room. Again, Nemo, this is an awesome tile! You do beautiful work!
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Post by WackyAnne on Mar 28, 2014 18:09:22 GMT -9
I meant to post some thoughts yesterday, but it seems the post was lost. What I said was that this tile is so beautiful it could make a very good reward for the END of a dungeon. Imagine being in gloomy darkness for weeks and then coming around a turn in the tunnel to see this. It would be like the first day of a long awaited spring. I remember coming across an adventure on RPGNow that consisted of fighting your way up out of a dungeon... This would be a beautiful reward at the end of that P.S. So, cowboyleland, how much snow in your backyard?
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Post by Nemo on Mar 29, 2014 0:10:55 GMT -9
Those runes look great, a little to great, if you get my drift. If this is an ancient cavern, then some of those runes would be a little worn, don't you think? (I still want to know what they say... .) They say " House of Stone and Brimstone, built by King Urduz Skullcrusher, father of Sark and Parduz Skullcrusher, during his Quest for the Holy Tankard. The bathroom is down the hallway, second tunnel to the right". But it may be an inaccurate translation, since some runes seem to transcript the sounds from a variant of the Dwarven language (called Ro'Marven), today spoken only by a small scattered bunch of Troll Hunters, living far north the borders of the human kingdom of Miranthia. Plus, I really liked wyvern's idea of some sort of Dwarven made archway where the stream exits the room. I liked it, too, at first But then I thought that a Dwarf (though lacking of a proper aesthetic sense) surely would have tried to "organize" the water pool and the stream. This didn't happen, apparently, so it seems to me that the water may have made its way to this hall long after the Dwarves were gone.
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Post by Parduz on Mar 29, 2014 0:31:52 GMT -9
" [...] the Holy Tankard. The bathroom is down the hallway, second tunnel to the right". I couldn't think to a more useful information, given the powers of the Holy Tankard! (What's the rune for "bathroom"? )
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Post by Nemo on Mar 29, 2014 1:07:52 GMT -9
(What's the rune for "bathroom"? ) But maybe it will not appear in the final version of the tile
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Post by wyvern on Mar 29, 2014 2:41:04 GMT -9
...the water may have made its way to this hall long after the Dwarves were gone. I like this idea, because then the water channel and waterfall have happened by accident, maybe natural, maybe magical as someone tried to halt the [insert your preferred monsters here] while making an escape... Will there be a standup doorway for the entrance/exit too (maybe with some more roots and trailing greenery)? As you see, I'm determined to get a Dwarven archway out of this set somehow For the "bathroom" rune, shouldn't both figures also have stylized beards? One last thing. I was printing out my new "Forge of a Thousand Souls" floorplans set yesterday, and discovered we'll need some tweaking of the original Lava Channel from Page 8 of the "Endless Dungeons Basic Set" to get it to match the "new look" lava stream (and that darker patch in mid-channel on the right-hand edge of the main "Forge" tile may have been a mistake in this respect...). Or let's not say "mistake"; it just means we'll need two new Lava Channel pieces, one more generic, the other to link between the "Forge" tile and the generic Lava Channel one Worth remembering too we wouldn't be commenting so frequently here, and wanting more, if we didn't think these floorplans were truly amazing!
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Post by Nemo on Mar 29, 2014 4:54:59 GMT -9
Will there be a standup doorway for the entrance/exit too (maybe with some more roots and trailing greenery)? As you see, I'm determined to get a Dwarven archway out of this set somehow Let's just say that there's a bigger picture behind this tile (and some things of the Forge and the Temple, too) that I'm hoping to reveal set after set, while still making each of them standing on its own. To answer more directly to your question: yes, there will be a standup doorway that will connect properly this tile with the outside world, definitely. But it won't be in this particular set. Anyway, any of the other "generic" standup doorways that I am going to include in this cave set will adequately fit the purpose in the meanwhile. One last thing. I was printing out my new "Forge of a Thousand Souls" floorplans set yesterday, and discovered we'll need some tweaking of the original Lava Channel from Page 8 of the "Endless Dungeons Basic Set" to get it to match the "new look" lava stream (and that darker patch in mid-channel on the right-hand edge of the main "Forge" tile may have been a mistake in this respect...). Or let's not say "mistake"; it just means we'll need two new Lava Channel pieces, one more generic, the other to link between the "Forge" tile and the generic Lava Channel one Yes, I thought about that: actually, in the first version of the Forge the lava stream connected seamlessly with the tile in the Basic Set. Following your suggestions I was able to create a much better looking effect, but this created an inconsistency between the two tiles. The simplest solution would be updating the Basic Set pdf file, but I feel this would be wrong to those who may have already printed the original tile. Drawing some "transitional" tiles would be a win-win solution, but I need to find a logical explanation to the change in the lava river "look". So I guess I need to think about it thoroughly before doing anything on this matter
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Post by dungeonmistress on Mar 29, 2014 6:17:00 GMT -9
ROFL! Stop, oh stop! I can't breathe! (Tears running down my face, gasping for breath) Oh, my sides hurt. Way too funny! Given the powers of the Holy Tankard, I am now entertaining doubts about that stream... . I guess I deserved that for bugging you about the translation! One thing's for sure, I'm going to share this thread with my dwarf, he will love it! If you left that bathroom rune in the tile, then that would be a lovely little Easter Egg hunt with an inside joke behind it, you know, like they do in movies? Seconded! OK, now I have to go and learn how to breathe again! PS: I'm not sure how to do the quote thing so it appears like yours do...help?
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Post by wyvern on Mar 30, 2014 2:04:00 GMT -9
Let's just say that there's a bigger picture behind this tile (and some things of the Forge and the Temple, too) that I'm hoping to reveal set after set, while still making each of them standing on its own. Intriguing... To answer more directly to your question: yes, there will be a standup doorway that will connect properly this tile with the outside world, definitely. But it won't be in this particular set. Shame; we'll just have to wait then... Anyway, any of the other "generic" standup doorways that I am going to include in this cave set will adequately fit the purpose in the meanwhile. And these new doorways sound promising too! Drawing some "transitional" tiles would be a win-win solution, but I need to find a logical explanation to the change in the lava river "look". The simplest answer would be to suggest the "original" lava river was closer to the heat source. Lava cools the further it gets from the main magma chamber, so reddens and darkens, but a narrow channel, especially one covered over, will be insulated away from the walls and ceiling, so will remain a brighter yellow for longer, especially towards mid-channel. That might give some options for the "transition" piece. PS: I'm not sure how to do the quote thing so it appears like yours do...help? I simply hit the "Quote" button for the relevant comment on the main topic page, then copy and paste the "[quote...]" and end-quote, "\quote", notations for any extra items if the quotations have to be split up - as above here. There is a problem in that I can't seem to add further quotes when I get to the "Reply/Create Post" page, in which case, I just open the topic in a second window, hit "Quote" again, and copy and paste from there into my reply. A bit convoluted, but that's computers for you
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Post by Nemo on Apr 2, 2014 8:03:01 GMT -9
And here's a digging site. As usual, please destroy it
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Post by dungeonmistress on Apr 2, 2014 9:32:43 GMT -9
Very nice. Just a few points:
*I like the lift, but can you illuminate it just a bit more? *The fire brand is a nice touch, though; where did it come from? I see lanterns, but what about a torch on the wall somewhere? Near the lift? *I think the shovel would look more ominous if the handle were broken? *In the two left side corners, is that where 'they' were digging? Perhaps the holes (or pick just one) should be deepened?
Overall, nice effect!
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Post by wyvern on Apr 2, 2014 11:18:52 GMT -9
Like this overall.
The intact shovel seems fine to me - it's where a shovel would be left after loading a cart from the southwest corner diggings. Not sure about the complete pickaxe to the northwest though, and the broken one to the southwest should probably look a little more "kicked to one side", because it's really in the way of getting to the rock faces right now.
Lights - possibly move them closer to the diggings, or add some more there?
Lift - maybe an argument to continue the rails right up to it, so carts can be loaded in and moved up or down levels? Must admit, I'd thought of this as the typical "Scooby Doo" mine, all on one level, so the rails would run in from the outside directly, without using lifts. This (literally!) adds an extra dimension, though. Nice idea.
Couple of technical issues with the rails. I like the "improved" points, but the handle needs to be further from the track, or it'll catch the side of any cart that overhangs or wobbles even slightly at present. Also, the dead-end straight needs to be a little longer to give better clearance at the turn (though this may depend on the exact size of a single mine cart).
The main problem is the turn is much too sharp for typical mine-cart-sized fixed-axle wheels to cope with. Options would be a) add some crash debris at and after the turn, and make the rails there look frequently repaired (miners don't have to be railway designers, after all!), or b) move the points up almost to the north edge, and run the turning rails off more gently to straighten up similarly close to the eastern edge. The latter will probably need the burning brand removing, however.
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Post by dungeonmistress on Apr 2, 2014 15:14:51 GMT -9
Why didn't I think of that? Good catch wyvern ! Agree! What if you 'opened' the angle of the curve from 90 degrees to 120 degrees and moved the pit in the northwest corner south a bit to allow room for the tracks? What ever you do keep the fire brand. Put it in a different spot if you like but it adds great atmosphere! **Still not getting this quote thing right - but I'm trying!**
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Post by Nemo on Apr 3, 2014 1:28:40 GMT -9
What if you 'opened' the angle of the curve from 90 degrees to 120 degrees and moved the pit in the northwest corner south a bit to allow room for the tracks? The angle of the curve is a consequence of the need of having the mine cart token always in a defined and precise square of the tile. I previously made some attempts in drawing more "gentle" curves, but none of them seemed to avoid possible uncertainties about the position of the cart and its interaction with characters in some points (given the fact that apparently in most rules systems characters/items cannot "half occupy" any given square). Simply put, it's the same logic that can't make possible for the rails to run through the middle of a two squares wide tunnel. So I guess this is one of those cases in which a bit of "visual plausibility" needs to be sacrificed to the rules of the game. I just hope it's bearable As usual, thank you very much for your precious comments
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Post by wyvern on Apr 3, 2014 3:41:23 GMT -9
The angle of the curve is a consequence of the need of having the mine cart token always in a defined and precise square of the tile. I previously made some attempts in drawing more "gentle" curves, but none of them seemed to avoid possible uncertainties about the position of the cart and its interaction with characters in some points (given the fact that apparently in most rules systems characters/items cannot "half occupy" any given square). Simply put, it's the same logic that can't make possible for the rails to run through the middle of a two squares wide tunnel. So I guess this is one of those cases in which a bit of "visual plausibility" needs to be sacrificed to the rules of the game. I just hope it's bearable I hadn't thought of this... But does that mean we might get some crash debris and rail-repair evidence on that corner after all?
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Post by cowboyleland on Apr 3, 2014 4:10:06 GMT -9
I see the tight turning radius as a necessary evil for game rule purposes. One way to remove all "evil" from the tile might be to have the track shift with a 30 degree section to the "south (lower)" side of the square and then turn to the far "west" (left) side of the square. The track could then switch back to the east side of the square if you need to be there for alignment purposes. This picture probably isn't worth even one hundred words but . . . Actually, the shift could be more subtle, angling over a square and a half, rather than the one square as I did it.
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Post by Nemo on Apr 3, 2014 4:44:20 GMT -9
It might be a solution, cowboyleland, still (since the "problem" seems to be all about logic/plausibility) I would ask why someone would build a track so convoluted. Maybe there are some obstacles like rocks and/or stala-things, but then again if I was a dwarf prospector maybe I would remove them, rather than build a track that goes around them. Also, I am not sure that I can replicate this solution for every 90° turns of the dungeon while still being able to maintain the degree of customization I would like to offer, so for the sake of simplicity sticking with the necessary evil seems to me the most reasonable choice (unless the final result is unreasonably awful, of course ).
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Post by cowboyleland on Apr 3, 2014 4:50:43 GMT -9
Good point about the other turns Nemo. I like that you "liked" my post
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Post by Parduz on Apr 3, 2014 5:54:34 GMT -9
cowboyleland: seems that you actually invented the "Elk Test" for mine chariots
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Post by wyvern on Apr 3, 2014 6:17:32 GMT -9
One other possible solution would be to use a small turntable instead of a corner at that junction, a rotating disc a little more than one mine cart wide. That way, the right-angle rail lines "problem" would be removed.
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Post by cowboyleland on Apr 3, 2014 6:42:06 GMT -9
Parduz I had to google "elk test." It is crazy that I've never heard of it here in Canada! The path of the tracks is more like this
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Post by Nemo on Apr 3, 2014 7:41:03 GMT -9
Thanks wyvern , I'm using that option for the 4-way intersection (still in a WIP form)
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Post by dungeonmistress on Apr 3, 2014 14:34:51 GMT -9
(slaps forehead with palm of hand) Duh! I didn't even think of the square occupancy rules! Some DM I am! cowboyleland , that tile looks like it could have been the victim of a violent earthquake! How about that for an idea Nemo ? Make the track look like it took a really bad hit from an 8.+ earthquake, you know, broken and twisted rails crooked and broken ties, spikes that have popped out or been bent? I hadn't heard of the term 'elk test' either, here we call it the kamakaze deer test. More deer here than elk. BTW: The turntable idea is very cool! Can't wait to see how it develops! Just spinnin' my wheels...
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