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Post by onemonkeybeau on Jan 21, 2009 19:39:23 GMT -9
Hey guys! I'm just throwing this out there as I've been home sick and surfing the net ALL day... I've discovered a few things that might be of interest to us. 1. There is a HUGE amount of scuttlebutt regarding Paizo Publishing's Pathfinder RPG. They have instituted the 'world's largest beta test' in which anyone can download the beta ruleset and test out the system for FREE... paizo.com/pathfinder/pathfinderRPGIt is essentially D&D 3.5 reimagined and oh, so much better! The game on the whole has been balanced and gobeldygook has been kicked out. I have enjoyed immensely reading the rules and I have to say that it has begun an urging for me to jump on the bandwagon. I've heard it called D&D 3.75 ;D 2. I know there was talk of us doing some 4e stuff earlier in the year, but if this system is going to be as big as I think it might with D&D 4e not faring too well with most... this might be the property to attach ourselves to. I know that spreading ourselves too thin (Ganesha, Savage Worlds, etc...) is not a good idea. but having a viable option for roleplayers to purchase instead of expensive lead models for this system might not be a bad idea. Now, most of Jim's stuff will translate over nicely, as the world that Pathfinder is set has the majority of Monster Manual creatures in it, there are specific NEW creatures that are begging to be realized in paper. The official system (bestiary and rulebook) won't be released until July and August of this year respectively so there's time... but Paizo has been releasing world books, campaign books, gazetteers, and adventures for over a year and half now... There is a LOT of stuff out there... and it's quite AWESOME! Check it out, download it, see what you think, and dream big with me! Or, I could be completely off my rocker... who knows! onemonkeybeau
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Post by godofrandomness on Jan 22, 2009 1:15:25 GMT -9
My group has bee playtesting this (tonights our 3rd session) and so far I'm loving it! We've even been using my onemonk minis too!
I've been burned out on dnd for quite a while, but pathfinder reawakened my eternal desire for killing stuff, stabbing buddies, and ganking treasure! I love how they improved some of the basic classes, though the XP tables seem a little off. They introduced a whole bunch of new feats (though according to the beta forums, some aren't making the cut for sure).
Though with the exception of a couple dragons, most monsters in 4E have some version that are also in 3.5/pathfinder. I do kinda hope to see some more iconic dnd monsters eventually from Jim, like beholders, dragons, and gelatinous cubes. A gazebo would be nice too...
Well while I'm putting up a dnd mini wish list, I do need to find a mini for 2 character concepts: a vow of peace mummy thats holy to the point of near sainthood, and an awakened octopus riding a raptor octo-weilding lances...
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Post by kane on Jan 22, 2009 7:59:45 GMT -9
Did not know you could still get the beta! Downloaded and will spread the love. For those that don't follow them, WWG is working on some Pathfinder branded sets to go along with the adventure paths. Nothing in preview, yet, but releasing soon.
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Post by onemonkeybeau on Jan 22, 2009 8:39:35 GMT -9
Did not know that! That's AWESOME!
onemonkeybeau
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Post by abaddonwormwood on Jan 22, 2009 10:30:34 GMT -9
I think by the end of next week we should see some previews of what WWG is working on. There are going to be a number of targeted sets (smaller than the norm) for the adventures. They are then going to release small add-ons to make them more compatible for the general line of WWG sets.
Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by squirmydad on Jan 22, 2009 10:38:13 GMT -9
I think the WWG and Pathfinder team up is much better than me trying to do anything with them. I can barely keep up with the few sets I want to do let alone make more collaborations.
I think their partnership will grow the number of people who buy and build paper models ,which is great for everyone. JIM
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Post by silentsquirrel on Jan 22, 2009 13:18:18 GMT -9
I've been burned out on dnd for quite a while, but pathfinder reawakened my eternal desire for killing stuff, stabbing buddies, and ganking treasure! I never took the D20 plunge... I just couldn't get into it. These days I'm all over Precis Intermedia's Genre Diversion 3E for my RPGs. It's a lot less rulesy but still retains some nice crunch. I wish Paizo luck, though. Anything would be better than that abomination D&D4E.
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Post by docryder on Jan 22, 2009 17:45:19 GMT -9
Anything would be better than that abomination D&D4E. I am in complete disagreement. I've looked at Pathfinder, and I just see a lot of the same old problems I have with D&D 3.5, which is that if you don't buy very specific feats and build in a very few ways, your character will be completely ineffective, and therefore a bore to play. For my money, D&D 4E is a much better game. Let the flames begin.
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Post by godofrandomness on Jan 23, 2009 0:14:32 GMT -9
Anything would be better than that abomination D&D4E. I am in complete disagreement. I've looked at Pathfinder, and I just see a lot of the same old problems I have with D&D 3.5, which is that if you don't buy very specific feats and build in a very few ways, your character will be completely ineffective, and therefore a bore to play. For my money, D&D 4E is a much better game. Let the flames begin. I've looked over and played a bit of both 4E and 3.5/pathfinder and find that 4e is FAR more restrictive than 3.5. True, a handful of classes kinda did have some mandatory feats to take; i.e. spell focus, weapon focus, ect. However 4e totally threw away the concept of customized characters. Multiclassing has been reduced to a couple of feats that only one or 2 options are really worth while. They took the fighter class and changed it from being one of the classes with most options, and reduced it to a poor tanking class. That's just my opinion anyway. Personally I prefer Palladium's stuff over anything else. There isn't too much individualization within any class, but there's a million character classes to choose from, and just as many races, including some like superheroes and mutant animals which are custom built races. That and I love the flavor, which I tend to totally ignore in any form of DnD. I guess you see 1 high fantasy, you've seen them all, at least in terms of DnD settings. Anyway, kinda back on topic: How good is WWG figs? Are they front/back? One pic I see looks like they're solid black on the back, but I can't tell, and I don't know if that stands for every set.
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Post by kane on Jan 23, 2009 7:19:01 GMT -9
Actually the WWG set is terrain, not miniatures. That said, their old mini sets did have black backs (BLECH!) but they have since changed that with their new sets. They are nice, but look more like cut-out drawings than paper-minis to me. As Jim has said, too much perspective ruins the illusion when working on a floating 2D plane.
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Post by squirmydad on Jan 23, 2009 14:30:35 GMT -9
I just remembered that I know the dude who is actually working with the Pathfinder folks on a range of paper figures. I invited him here, but I think he wants to maintain his style and focus, and I can respect that. whodrewthis.deviantart.com/gallery/BTW, I don't play any of those roleplaying game thingies. Just give me some simple combat rules and let me bash the snot out of stuff and take their crud, that's all I need for fun. Yes I know, sophisticated. JIM
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Post by godofrandomness on Jan 23, 2009 22:36:39 GMT -9
His stuff does look nice! I hope to see some final product from him soon, assuming my current campaign doesn't break down like they usually do...
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Post by naturaltwenty on Feb 16, 2009 6:56:58 GMT -9
First off let me preface my comments with the following - I am a gaming junkie. I buy way too much gaming stuff for my own good, have purchased some games multiple times over the years because I couldn't remember purchasing it originally (I've now since moved to a database that I keep on my BlackJack II) and in general love games. My opinion and synopsis of where we're at today: WotC held 4e/GSL too tightly because by the end of the 3.x era companies (Paizo, Green Ronin, etc) were making better "D&D" products than WotC was. WotC couldn't decide how they wanted to release the new GSL (entry fee for select 3rd parties, pre-release and then general release, limit the ability of 3rd parties to reproduce the rulebook wholecloth ala Pocket PHB from Mongoose, etc) so Paizo made the decision to continue making a 3.x based game so they could sell their outstanding Adventure Paths. Pathfinder is trying to walk a thin line. Make a game that is semi-backwards compatible to allow 3.5 players to continue purchasing Pathfinder rulebooks when the WotC PHB is no where to be found and "fix" some of the issues that bugged themselves (and hopefully other players) regarding 3.x While the product is still in Beta it's going to be hard to satisfy both camps and in the end may distract them from doing what they do best...make ass-kicking adventures, campaigns, and accompanying products (cards, battlegrids, accessories). Note - I am a Pathfinder Superscriber meaning on a monthly basis I get every Pathfinder related product shipped to me (told you I was a gaming junkie) My opinion on d20 type gaming - Of all the flavors of d20 out there (Castles & Crusades, True20, BESM d20, Pathfinder, D&D 3.x, etc) - I've grown to dislike D&D's version, i.e. feat-based, splat bloat, requirement of mapping your character from level 1-20 before play starts to "optimize your build". If I'm playing or running a game I don't want to have to be tied down to a build and then make the character fit into the whatever storyline I'm in. Organic games that allow me to choose based on story vs. a decision I made at the beginning of the game somehow invalidates my "build" are what I'm after. Opinion ended
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Post by squirmydad on Feb 16, 2009 14:11:20 GMT -9
I too feel that the new iteration of D&D feels more like a video game than a role playing game. Anyway, nowadays I'd prefer more ROLL playing than anything, I have the Castles and Crusades stuff and reading through that.
I do look forward to seeing what WorldWorksGames does for the pathfinder game. They are a very good match. I hope they find a miniatures designer as well, but I think Piazo will go with metal figures right now. The more paper options out there the better it is for all of us. JIM
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Post by godofrandomness on Feb 16, 2009 17:19:00 GMT -9
My thing about DnD is I don't treat it as a role playing game. Flat out its not. It's a hack n slash dungeon crawler. There's no rewards for non combat related stuff (I know a DM can give out rewards like that, but I do prefer systems that include stuff like that into the basic rules so theres some consistency between play groups/GMs). Evem making a character around non combat themes really feels like it penalizes the whole party because you can't pull your weight. Not that I mind that, as I do enjoy 3.X for that type of game.
However I prefer Palladium's system for role playing. You can get real power gamey still with character creation, and parties usually come out a little unbalanced amongst themselves (which makes them feel a little more believeable), but most exp rewards come from strategy, puzzles, skills, and other roleplay stuff. Also, I broke my RPG teeth in with their TMNT line, and Transdimentional TMNT is the best source book for any game... EVER IMO
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Post by stevelortz on Feb 16, 2009 21:12:45 GMT -9
I've been enjoying this discussion of the direction of RPGs in general, but I've got one question? What is "splat bloat"? Here I am just figuring out what "feats" are (as in "Feats, don't fail me now!"), and along comes "splat bloat". Does it have anything to do with air-soft? ;D
Have fun! Steve
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Post by silentsquirrel on Feb 17, 2009 4:09:26 GMT -9
I've been enjoying this discussion of the direction of RPGs in general, but I've got one question? What is "splat bloat"? Here I am just figuring out what "feats" are (as in "Feats, don't fail me now!"), and along comes "splat bloat". Does it have anything to do with air-soft? ;D Have fun! Steve "Splat Bloat" refers to an RPG line that sucks you in to buying 100 supplemental books to the main RPG. This is typified by game settings with various clans or groups that are expanded upon in "splat books". White Wolf is probably the best-known perpetrator of splat bloat with their World of Darkness rpg lines. Splat bloat is annoying, but fortunately not every game company uses this business model.
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Post by silentsquirrel on Feb 17, 2009 4:11:29 GMT -9
I too feel that the new iteration of D&D feels more like a video game than a role playing game. Anyway, nowadays I'd prefer more ROLL playing than anything, I have the Castles and Crusades stuff and reading through that. C&C is great for an old-school feeling game. I'm waiting for the 4th printing of the Player's Handbook and hoping they fix the barbarian and illusionist. C&C is the only]/i] d20 style game that I like.
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Post by silentsquirrel on Feb 17, 2009 4:21:16 GMT -9
My opinion on d20 type gaming - Of all the flavors of d20 out there (Castles & Crusades, True20, BESM d20, Pathfinder, D&D 3.x, etc) - I've grown to dislike D&D's version, i.e. feat-based, splat bloat, requirement of mapping your character from level 1-20 before play starts to "optimize your build". If I'm playing or running a game I don't want to have to be tied down to a build and then make the character fit into the whatever storyline I'm in. Organic games that allow me to choose based on story vs. a decision I made at the beginning of the game somehow invalidates my "build" are what I'm after. Opinion ended Interesting. I like Fate for narrative, story-based gaming. Character creation is very organic and flexible and you can pretty much nail your character concept from the get go. Good stuff.
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Post by docryder on Feb 17, 2009 22:45:16 GMT -9
I'm going to kinda respond to a couple of different things.
As to D&D not being roleplay, and Palladium somehow encouraging it, that's definitely a pair of examples of how DMs shape games. I've never seen a Palladium system game not become a power gamer's wet dream, especially the Sci Fi "I have gots ta have me a MegaDamage weapon!" games. I've also played in plenty of D&D that was more roleplay than hack and slash dungeon crawling. My friends and I definitely play a lot of epic tales with D&D still. That may just be my area; I don't know.
I looked at FATE. I didn't like it. There are plenty of concepts that will end up feeling kludgy, I'm sure. My favorite magic system ever was Mage the Ascension. I've looked at FATE, and you can't even come close to the flexibility and commonality of magic use that's in Mage using FATE. And their examples of running skill challenges are pretty bad, or they seemed so to me. There weren't enough guidelines for creating those challenges for me to feel I could GM that game. There were a lot of great concepts, but I wasn't sold on the game.
In the playing I've done with D&D4, I kinda see the "video game" feel of things, but I'm not convinced. Maybe I haven't played enough. As to "builds," I don't think you need to have your character mapped out through his entire career, as you can alway rebuild your character as you go up levels. I did find this annoying in 3.5. So much so that once our current campaign is done, I plan on never playing 3.x ever again.
While I've been gaming for just over 30 years now, I'm no fan of old editions of D&D, with the exception of the Red and Blue Book Basic D&Ds (the ones with Jeff Dee and Bill Willingham and Erol Otis art, not the later ones). Talk about games that locked you into a set of abilities with no flexibility! Those old games were like that; lots of straightjackets. Over on Gnome Stew, this nostalgia idea came up, and I think what people are really looking for is to recapture the fun of their memories. Not sure that's really for me. I'd rather look forward.
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Post by Aestelon on Feb 18, 2009 2:54:45 GMT -9
"Kludgy". That's one to add to the gaming dictionary, alongside "clutty"...
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Post by stevelortz on Feb 18, 2009 4:35:51 GMT -9
...I've been gaming for just over 30 years now... ...this nostalgia idea came up, and I think what people are really looking for is to recapture the fun of their memories... Amen, docryder, amen! I played my first game of D&D in February 1975. I was unemployed from the fall of '76 to the spring of '77, and I ran a D&D campaign full time for eight months. I stopped playing the TSR brand when they came out with AD&D. To me, the system had become "rules bound", that is, there was no longer sufficient room for the DM and players to use their imaginations. I fiddled around with "Runequest" for a while, but got tired of spending an entire afternoon generating a character just to watch him die within the first fifteen minutes of play. Not long ago (remember, I've been talking in terms of "decades", fans) the owner of the local comic book store talked me into running a D&D 3.5 session for "international D&D day". It was okay, but nothing like having my imagination blown wide open way back in '75. It seems to me that D&D has narrowed, narrowed, narrowed itself down, into nothing more than a dungeon crawl. As docryder said, a good GM can still use it to run combat in a role playing campaign, but the role playing depends on the game master (just as it aways has, and always will). The best role playing games with which I've been involved in the past 15 years or so have been games where we just sat around making things up as we went along, sort of like Chris Engle's matrix games. I'm considering doing some "Dungeon Plungin'" using Jim's new adventurers. Have fun! Steve P.S. - I've been playing a dwarf in Dave Arneson's "Blackmoor Campaign" (the original and longest-running active role playing campaign) since 1982. Every year at GenCon, another old dwarf player and I still role dice against each other to see who will get to be the Regent of the Mines for the coming year, and who will have to be the King of the Dwarves (target of numerous assasination attempts). One of these days, I'll tell what I know about the pre-D&D history of role playing adventure games.
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Post by silentsquirrel on Mar 24, 2009 2:02:30 GMT -9
Not to derail this thread any further, but has anyone else seen this: Microlite20? Looks pretty cool to me.
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Post by onemonkeybeau on Mar 24, 2009 12:30:34 GMT -9
Looks awesome! I'll check it out tonight!
onemonkeybeau
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Post by Aestelon on Mar 24, 2009 14:22:47 GMT -9
It does indeed look cool. I've downloaded all the rules and printed off the core pocket version for perusal, and it looks dead simple. While we're piping up with new RPG systems, I thought I'd mention one that's not actually available yet, No Dice. I can't really tell you much about the game itself, as there's currently no rules available for download (they're going up on June 1st). However, I am lucky enough to be attending one of the pre-launch games next month. We have to sign NDAs, so I probably won't be able to go into too much detail, but I should at least be able to give you a heads-up on what it's like to play, and if it's worth your time.
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Post by silentsquirrel on Mar 25, 2009 2:18:34 GMT -9
It does indeed look cool. I've downloaded all the rules and printed off the core pocket version for perusal, and it looks dead simple. While we're piping up with new RPG systems, I thought I'd mention one that's not actually available yet, No Dice. I can't really tell you much about the game itself, as there's currently no rules available for download (they're going up on June 1st). However, I am lucky enough to be attending one of the pre-launch games next month. We have to sign NDAs, so I probably won't be able to go into too much detail, but I should at least be able to give you a heads-up on what it's like to play, and if it's worth your time. Microlite20 seems to be right up my alley. With all the options available on the forums there, I look at it as a toolkit to make the kind of game I want to play. That being said, No Dice has me interested as well. I know you've signed an NDA, but I take it playing cards are used?
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Post by Aestelon on Mar 25, 2009 2:26:49 GMT -9
It certainly looks like they like to use playing cards, but I don't know if that's actually a kind of game mechanic or just "if we need a randomiser, we'd rather use cards than dice". My preview game is on 11th April, so I'll see how much I can tell you then. I imagine the NDA won't extend as far as giving people brief overviews, because hell, free advertising is good, right?
<edit> And why the heck do I keep reading that as "splat boat"? That doesn't even make sense!
Andy
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Post by kane on Mar 25, 2009 6:12:46 GMT -9
Aestelon, until you pointed it out, I thought it was boat too! Oops.
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Post by silentsquirrel on Apr 8, 2009 2:06:07 GMT -9
Interesting note: As of yesterday, WOTC has yanked all PDFs from places like RPG Now and Paizo due to the "piracy problem".
White Wolf then made the Exalted core rules a free download.
Does WOTC even know what to do with D&D any more? Do they not realize that digital distribution is the wave of the future? It's kind of like stomping your feet and throwing a fit because a few hooligans are file-sharing your stuff. It's not like the RIAA has been able to successfully stop illegal music downloads.
Anyway, interesting news, to say the least.
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Post by abaddonwormwood on Apr 8, 2009 3:02:39 GMT -9
We have been discussing this over at WWG forum - end of the day I will sum up my feeling of this: They had a very strong printed product line why then did they feel that they needed to slice open the throats of the FLGS? Also when a product is rehashed over and over again people might want a look at it but most will not want to buy it over and over. I bought the core three books in the slip case from Amazon... and they have stayed where they are. I am not RPGing at this point in my life so it was a buy for old time sakes, on the flipside I totally dislike WotC's products as I find that Third Party do it so much better, so much. (many will debate the point as too 4th being a RPG or a Tabletop Wargame these days.) Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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