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Post by aaron on Oct 14, 2014 16:25:15 GMT -9
Tell everyone you know to tell everyone they know!! T. O. is live on Kick starter as of a few minutes ago!!
I will be there for the duration answering questions and making adjustments!! I will also be here answering questions and talking about the Kickstarter in detail!! soooo feel free to ask questions make comments or give suggestions!!
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Post by arcticdragongames on Oct 15, 2014 5:41:44 GMT -9
This is good news! I shared the link to the Arctic Dragon Games FB page.
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Post by aaron on Oct 15, 2014 13:02:40 GMT -9
SweeT!! I'm busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest! If anyone has any questions feel free to ask even if it's about the kick stater process, I am learning a lot about the stuff they never tell you about! The first big piece of advice about Kick starter is that it should be the end of your creationary process not the beginning. By the time you hit a Kickstarter you should have a product that is almost signed sealed and ready to deliver, you just need a little finical bump and it's ready to rock and roll. (honestly it should be done already) the only reason your kickstarting is to get guaranteed funding, and maybe a little advertising. I have had two people now ask me about the January delivery date and balked at how long out it is before delivery. what they wanted to hear is days fine, weeks perhaps , a month No, months HELL NO. So get you stuff as ready as it can be before you kick it off. The other thing that is HUGE as you all know is advertising. in fact if Temporum Oblitus doesn't fund it will probably be because I didn't have enough advertising. I have done everything else but bleed for this and even then I think I did get a paper cut submitting the Banking paperwork! (which is it's own topic ) this brings up the topic of Vultures and Jackels or "marketers" My kickstarter wasne't even two hours old before I got almost 25 personal messages from all over the place I got messages, on Kickstarter, Face book and even in my personal E-mail. So Kickstarter says they don't share/ sell your personal information but obviosuly they do. Almost all the Jackels approched me the same way here's how they do it.... This is a direct conversation that I had with Alex on a private face book chat. Alex was the only one that actually responded to my very brutal questions: Hi Aaron, I don’t usually reach out personally, but as I was browsing through new Kickstarter campaigns yours caught my eye. I usually look through new campaigns to keep up with current trends, and although yours looks good, I can tremendously help you increase visibility to potential, niche targeted backers. If you’re interested drop me a line and I’ll get back to you within 24h. Ps. We’ve helped raise over 1.5 mil for my clients through crowdfunding over the last 18 months alone … I kind of specialize in this…Don’t take my word for, you can learn more here: Website: GetMeCrowdfunded.com Looking forward to hearing from you, Email: promotions@getmecrowdfunded.com Pps. I’m sure you get similar messages all the time… This one will be worth your time to check out. 7 hours ago Here's my response you have no idea ! I actually have about 25 messages from similar "specialists" and their is actually several sites that rank you guys most if not all of them are misleading if not a scam outright so let me ask how are you different? the first thing I want to know from you is who is MY target market and how are you going to reach them in ways that I can't? so far all 25 people who have PM'd me either can't answer that question or don't respond. 5 hours ago Hi Aaron, thank you for the email, and can you explain or show what you mean by "their is actually several sites that rank you guys most" ? We began as a marketing agency a few years ago, and for the past 3 years specialized in crowdfunding. So yes targeting is one of the most important aspects and the first thing we do before promoting any campaign. As I'm sure you're well aware, one of the most important aspects in crowd funding is getting exposure, and more potential backers to see your campaign. This is what essentially do, but there is a bit more strategy to the actual procedure, but the bottom line is generating more awareness about your campaign. I manage multiple social media pages with 10k+ fans in each page (this one has 100k+ for example www.facebook.com/pages/Music/122242529103) , and have great writers working with me to develop great content for the Press Releases which we distribute to our network. getmecrowdfunded.comHere are three packages that have lead to great results, which focus on direct, niche targeted promotion: Starter Campaign research ($50 worth) PR Development ($75 worth) PR Distribution to 500 local news and blog sources ($150 worth) Targeted Social media promotion 1 week ($100 worth) Twitter outreach to 10,000+ Facebook outreach to 10,000+ Total potential reach of 60,000 Completed in 10 business days Total: $197 (Normally $375) Advanced Campaign research ($50 worth) PR Development ($75 worth) PR reach to 500 local US City news and blog sources ($150 worth) PR Distribution to 10,000 Journalists ($200 worth) PR Distribution to 150,000 ($400 worth) Targeted Social Media promotion 2 weeks ($200 worth) Twitter outreach to 20,000+ Facebook outreach to 20,000+ Total potential reach of 200,000+ Completed in 10 business days Total: $498 (Normally $975) Pro Campaign research ($50 worth) PR Development x 2 ($150 worth) PR reach to 500 local US City news and blog sources x 2 ($300 worth) PR Distribution to 10,000 Journalists ($200 worth) PR Distribution to 150,000 ($400 worth) Targeted Social Media promotion 4 weeks ($400 worth) Twitter outreach to 20,000+ Facebook outreach to 200,000+ Total potential reach of 500,000+ Completed in 10-14 business days Total: $698 (Normally $1500) The Pro of course gets you the most exposure, for 4 weeks, and the one I would suggest promoting your campaign with. These focus on direct outreach to potential backers. here are just some of the campaigns we’ve helped: - 10k - 242k Looking forward to your reply, and getting you started! Alex getmecrowdfunded.compromotions@getmecrowdfunded.com Music that's fantastic, except you didn't answer my most basic question. Exposure is great but only if it's the right exposure. when I asked you who is my target market, I did this because the people I am marketing to is a very specific, fairly closed community of people that my guess is you have no idea how to reach. this means that I will pay you to splatter my kickstarter all over the place with very little attention payed to who exactly your showing it to. My focus market is even more specific than just the gaming industry and unless you are aware of exactly who I am marketing to your wasting your time and wasting my money. For instance if you market my kickstarter to an old folks home because they like to play chess then you just wasted your time. they are not my target market and I can almost guarantee that I will get no pledges from anyone you market to. Unless you know my product and what I'm trying to achieve then I can guarantee with almost 98% accuracy that your marketing campaigns will be a dismal failure. So let me ask you Alex, what do you know personally about the table top war gaming community? Can you tell me why my game is so unique that it's going to hit like a freight train? If you can't do this then your wasting your time because this community is sooooo hard to market to that your standard blanket techniques are a complete waste of time. Also I will let you find your own ranking sites , needless to say people who do Kick starters are talking to each-other and you "exposure" marketing companies are getting a really bad rap. Your being compared to Jackals and vultures. Their are a few sites where many people have actually listed the "companies" that have approached them and compare the services they offer. In most cases they use simple blanket marketing techniques that anyone can do. They guarantee exposure, not the right exposure. Which leads to a kickstarter giving money to a company that does nothing for them and knew in the beginning they weren't really going to do anything for them that they couldn't do for themselves. So I pose my question again, how are you different from one of those Jackals? Alex what do you know personally about the table top war gaming community, and can you tell me why my game is so unique that it's going to hit like a freight train? I will finish with my original question you never answered ... who is MY target market and how are you going to reach them in ways that I can't? If you want my money then you are going to have to show me that you deserve it. Just like I have to do for all the people looking at my kickstarter. I haven't herd back from him and in fact I am not completely sure he wasn't a bot. Honestly I don't expect to hear back from him. and he looked the most lagit he had a nice Facebook page and a lovely family but that can be faked and even if he was brilliant marketer he couldn't answer my most basic questions. I also had one person tell me they were good frineds with Matt and Dave from mini war gaming.com and Will wheaton from Table top .... this person promised to get them to promote my product. actually what this BOT did was look at my YouTube history and just take random names from the last few videos I watched but the part that made me laugh is when I responded with a stop bothering me pm I got one back immediately telling me they also know Doug Walker (the nostalgia movie critique )who said he would review my Kickstarter .... Oh brother are you serious!!So be warned when you launce a Kickstarter there will be lots of people looking to scam you into giving them money they don't deserve. I mean what's Doug going to do? tell me how much my video sucked!! ?? speaking of which Filming for me has been a nightmare but Kickstarter is a visual medium and even though they tell you your videos don't have to be slick to make it work, they really do! you have to be on the level of Lucas Arts to make people happy. So if you have ties to skywalker ranch now would be the time to cash in on that. I'm working on putting together a video tutorial but it's a slow painful process that should have been done BEFORE I launched my kickstarter I hope I was able to help you guys who are looking to do your first kickstarter. Also If Temporum Oblitus doens't fund then hold on! I'll finish it up polish it pretty get me some top notch advertising and a slick video and then re-launch it!
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Post by arcticdragongames on Oct 15, 2014 14:14:46 GMT -9
Sounds like you found some hard working bots! Are they spies for The Source?
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Post by aaron on Oct 15, 2014 16:43:22 GMT -9
i'm starting to wonder?
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Post by niksantsurvivedendor on Oct 15, 2014 22:20:27 GMT -9
The thing I was wondering about the most with your campaign was, that your funding goal seems very high to mee. I didn`t follow your preparation threads so excuse me if you already explained it. Maybe it would be better to start (as you said) with a Finished product with all your stretchgoals prepared(that is a lesson the faceless king has learned in his campaign I guess, for he is overwhelmed with the response to his small 100 dollar campaign). And with a package that is way smaller. You could make a starter set like GW does. Two armies, stretchgoals could be terrain and maybe a third faction. Another stretchgoal could be fluff books for the factions. I like the tables you show in the video. In terms of PR or commercials. Maybe you should focus even more in how to play. I wish you luck with it. _By the way: I think you should do more vehicles...I like them alot. Hope I wrote it in a way that you are not offended, sorry I am not a native speaker.
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Post by aaron on Oct 16, 2014 12:30:01 GMT -9
it takes a lot to offend me I'm pretty thick skinned. Were actually in the process of making tutorials and will be filming them all day tomorrow and on Saturday. I hope to get them edited quickly and up for everyone to see, but filming has been my Arch Nemesis since the beginning!! ask anyone and they will tell you my photos have always been bootsy soo I'm trying to make a good video but it's not been easy. I didn't start with a small dollar amount because I've seen what other Kick starters have made and also because Temporum Oblitus is worth it Every penny. It may be a mistake to put it so high but I think it will make it. But honestly I have put a little over two years into the development (along with help and suggestions from lots of people including many members of this board) so even if I make 60,000 from it that puts me at about 30k a year which in the United States puts me just below the poverty level so as squirmydad said their is a certain level of diminishing return. That means it becomes not worth it to me to publish Temporum Oblitus and all it's expansions for less. Come on though honestly, even at the $25.00 level you get a crap-ton of stuff LOL!! also I am in a unique position that if T.O. doesn't fund, I will just re-tool it, keep working on it and re-launch my kickstarter until I either funds, or I finish it and just release it to the public. I honestly feel like the only reson it won't fund is because I don't have very good advertising and I didn't have a good video to begin with. So if Temporum Oblitus doens't fund no matter how I tool it then I will release it like am doing with Splinterwood. Only it will hit OBS all at once I hope they can handle it LOL. so once it's released you will have to buy all the units separately. which is good and bad. it's good if you want to use my models for some other game and you don't want the whole army. it's bad if you want to get the whole game because then your going to have to buy eveyrhitng sepreately and I can tell you it's going to be much more expensive than $50.00 and you won't even get the T-shirts and basses (and all those strech goals!!) I mean come on 9 full armies, Ultra heavys !! super spies and tons and tons of terraine! and what if your the guy who only pleged $35.00 you would make out like a royal bandit LOL I'm glad you like the vehicles but the game isn't like anything that GW makes in that I actually care about game play and not just the models. The game has a progressive narrative and the armies change over time unlike anything that's out their that I am aware of. The armies are as balanced as we could make them so that no matter what army you field you will have an equal chance of winning or loosing it all depends on your ability to general your army. Temporum Oblitus plays much more like chess than it does like Warhammer 40k while there is an element of chance in T.O. you can all but eliminate it if you play you army right. If you are playing T.O. and you find yourself relying on chance to win ... you won't. So just randomly adding vehicles will ruin the game. Either that or we will have to create a vehicle with castrated stats so it won't mess up game play and who wants to bring a cool looking vehicle that doesn't do anything? though if you like them then your going to love the Ultra Heavy expansion and some of the stretch armies. Check out the Stretch Goals! If I get enough advertising I'm sure I'll hit some of these!! At $15,000, we unlock the Free Frontier supply station with 4 structures: barracks landing platform radar tower guard house with optional gun mount At $20,000, we unlock the Core of Humanity refueling station with several modular components: forward bunker tower with add on platforms bridge and ramp system loading and unloading ramp spiral stair system power station with generator At $25,000, we unlock the Ruskins outpost with several modular components: central platform spying tower Razor bat launching platforms Grack pens Geezy toad defense stations barracks At $30,000, we unlock the Obbs forward base with several modular components: Command bunker meck repair station copter landing platforms manned gun towers mobile barracks At $35,000, we unlock the Source black factory with modular components: assembly line with heavy machines warehouse for part and troops walls with gun mounts automated defenses factory repair droids At $40,000, we unlock the Ultra Heavy expansion: This is a game changer with new units, so you can have EPIC games. Each army will have Ultra Heavy units: The Free Frontier has a huge air ship call the Erasabeth capable of dealing devastating damage and wreaking havoc across the battlefield. The Core of Humanity has a huge walking platform of doom called the A.R.K.9 with the ability to cut a swath of carnage through anything it encounters. The Ruskins have a giant carnivorous lizard they call it Kusar ui Vad (meaning emperor of the wild). With guns mounted on the side of this monster, it can blow up and rip apart just about anything it gets its teeth on. The Obbs bring to the table a giant steam powered Meck known as the Juggernaut. The Source have the capability of fielding a scorpion type robot (the size of a small fortress) known affectionately by the other armies as the Screecher because of the horrible piercing sounds that it commonly makes (along with its game changing firepower). At $45,000, we unlock the next expansion —The Super Spies. Each army has new units capable of disrupting their opponents with dice altering, gun sabotaging, turn skipping, unit stopping , vehicle disabling , troop poisoning , leader assassinating, terrain altering, turn stealing super spy goodness! At $50,000, we unlock a whole new army! Complete with their Ultra Heavy and Super Spies the Nyxers are a super mobile army with few vehicles and ground troops. They make up for this with lots of Flyers. They take guerilla warfare to the extreme. They’re like fighting smoke or trying to hold down the water on the shore. They may not hit super hard, but they keep hitting; wave after wave and hit after hit, they chip away at their enemies. Their opponents have learned stopping them is hard and controlling them is impossible. The Nyxers are the final word in battlefield mobility and guerilla warfare. At $55,000, we unlock another complete army —the Dien. Don't let their short stature fool you. When it comes to firepower, even their basic troops pack a punch. Though they are a slow moving army, their super tough armor and crazy firepower make them a hard nut to crack. Once they dig in, it's almost impossible to move them. Once they claim an area, it's almost better just to let them have it. At $60,000, we unlock the next complete army —the Crox. From the islands of the south comes the Lizard conglomerate known as the Crox. Perhaps the most diversified army on the field, they have everything from huge hard hitting close combat units to super small camouflage poisonous units. The tough part about facing off against the Crox is you never know what they’re going to throw at you, and most of their battles are won or lost by how they tool their army. At $65,000, we unlock the final army in this Kickstarter —the Skyrax. Though cut off from the mainland conflict, the Skyrax have adapted quickly to the armies that they come up against. With brutal speed and toughness, they have hyper special units that are perfectly adapted to one task or another giving them the ability to surgically slice an enemy to pieces. Though in their specialty, they have to work together, or they crumble quickly. At $70,000, we unlock Nyxer safe house complete with mobile modular buildings and defensive structures. At $75,000, we unlock the Dien fortress with heavy gun towers and trenched fortifications. At $80,000, we unlock the Crox spawning grounds with brood lords and living defenses. At $85,000, we unlock the Skyrax sky towers with ramp structures and bridges, sliding gun turrets, and vehicle bay. At $1,000,000, we seriously start looking at making this in plastic and launching the video game.
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Post by aaron on Oct 16, 2014 14:29:09 GMT -9
Just in case your wondering I have a sample rule book with the essential rules for play ready to be downloaded on my kick-starter site! fell free to check it out and give me some feed back it looks like this
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Post by wildagreenbough on Oct 17, 2014 17:57:53 GMT -9
Awww Aaron, - your new sleepy Aaron avatar is cute I went and had a look at your Kickstarter page and I have to say, 'Cool video mister.' I liked the sound track and the graphics were excellent and were a great match for the sound track too. I thought you did a nice job of talking up your project and the battle in progress layout looked interesting and appealing. As with Splinterwood it's the models that really sell the game to me, but on the other hand I haven't really had a proper look at the rule book yet. Oh and I've made the pledge so I'm on board for this ride
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Post by aaron on Oct 18, 2014 5:24:14 GMT -9
Sweet! I really hope we can pull it off and people love it!! I'm excited your on board wild! it's been pretty slow but I guess that's how these things go 'eh ?
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Post by Brave Adventures on Oct 18, 2014 5:56:28 GMT -9
Hey Aaron, I just backed you and shared your video on our Facebook page! If you include free shipping to Japan for the T-shirts I'll up my pledge to $100.
The armies and game table in the video look stunning! I recommend putting that stuff first in your promotional video. The animated info on the armies is cool, but it doesn't have the same wow factor as seeing the armies in action. The current intro is a little slow so you'll probably lose a lot of people who are just browsing and don't watch the whole video. Unfortunately, we live in the age of TLDR (too long didn't read). Some nice close-up footage or still-images right away might get people who aren't familiar with paper craft more interested. Just my 2 cents.
Good luck!
Ryan
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Post by aaron on Oct 18, 2014 8:53:06 GMT -9
Hey Thanks for all the input! I'll make some changes and see if it helps. I know my video isn't the best but right now it's really hard for me to make a new one. i'm actually working on that right now but it's slow going. I think I should have had all the videos in the can before I launched but I had to appease my benefactor. She is getting frustrated that I have been working on this for a little over 2 years with title or no return on her investment. I can see her point but I think if she was just a little more patient we could have had a tighter presentation before we launched. So we could concentrate on sailing the ship rather than patching the holes as we go.
Free shipping to Japan... hummm Intriguing .... I will look into it. the more shirts I send to Japan the cheaper it becomes (which seems counter intuitive but there it is) If I get 10 backers from Japan I think I can swing it! even still I will look into the over all loss and see if it all balances out. all in all some great suggestions.
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Post by aaron on Oct 18, 2014 9:38:22 GMT -9
OK I looked into it and I can swing free shipping to Japan, Hopefully your near Tokyo or a major city LOL the further out you live the more expensive it becomes. I'll be updating the kickstarter today and I will hopefully have a new video by Monday.
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Post by aaron on Oct 19, 2014 14:40:14 GMT -9
well the video isn't working out which is ultra frustrating but I updated the kickstarter with free shipping to Japan!! that might come back to bite me but at this point who cares LOL
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Post by Rhannon on Oct 20, 2014 8:43:01 GMT -9
This is a very great projet, imho. Good ( right level pledges ) but ... too little time and too high stretch goals ( including the initial one for the project's foundation ). But it is. I wish you a great success.
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Post by oldschooldm on Oct 20, 2014 9:04:53 GMT -9
I didn't start with a small dollar amount because I've seen what other Kick starters have made and also because Temporum Oblitus is worth it Every penny. It may be a mistake to put it so high but I think it will make it. But honestly I have put a little over two years into the development (along with help and suggestions from lots of people including many members of this board) so even if I make 60,000 from it that puts me at about 30k a year which in the United States puts me just below the poverty level so as squirmydad said their is a certain level of diminishing return. That means it becomes not worth it to me to publish Temporum Oblitus and all it's expansions for less. Come on though honestly, even at the $25.00 level you get a crap-ton of stuff LOL!! I'm sorry - that's completely the wrong way to look at pricing. They don't teach you this until business school, unfortunately... Honestly, pricing based on what you think your time is worth is a classic mistake. Pricing must always be what the market will bear, and in my opinion, you are massively overpriced given similar items available from the marketplace (as typified by RPGNow and the clones.) You're suffering from the sunk-cost fallacy. Don't use your effort for pricing. Instead: Ask yourself, what is good price for print-your-own figures and game rules? Ask for less than that, no matter how much time you've invested. When you restart this kickstarter, I suggest you talk at length with the other papercraft kickstarter folks - they are friendly and have a lot of good advice. FDG did not succeed on their first effort because of some of these same problems. Tom has been very helpful to others getting started (ever notice how LOW he sets his funding goal? You should ask him why.). See: community.vfs.com/arcade/2014/04/think-design-the-sunk-cost-fallacy/Here's a good way to look at it: - If you don't sell any you get $0 for your effort.
- If you price reasonably, you get thousands of dollars for your efforts, but maybe not as high as you wish.
- If you price too expensively, you get $0 for your efforts.
Choose one, but in all cases, you've already sunk the cost of your development. This is true for almost all markets (academic paper ahead, do not read): www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Price_Theory/PThy_Chapter_13/PThy_Chapter_13.htmlThis post is really an attempt to help. I'd like to invest in your Kickstarter, when it's more in line with the market.
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Post by oldschooldm on Oct 20, 2014 9:17:05 GMT -9
For anyone considering a kickstarter, there are lots of links out there. I suggest focusing more on what can go wrong than any magic sauce to get it right. The few bullets in this post ring particularly true, I think: www.crowdcrux.com/5-kickstarter-mistakes-you-should-avoid/1. Putting “You” First. 2. Poor Budgeting 3. Failure to Study Industry Examples 4. Underestimating Social Media Preparation 5. Expecting High Conversions #1, #3, and #4 have been a particular challenge for new Kickstarters, especially in the papercraft arena. I have several friends who have crashed-and-burned kickstarters (games, comic books, papercraft) - each of them tripped up on at least 2 or 3 of these each. Most of them didn't gather enough feedback from their front line supporters before going out. Many of them eventually succeeded on their 2nd or 3rd attempt. Those ones "failed fast" - didn't wait for the first one to fail (time out) before starting the reboot.
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Post by niksantsurvivedendor on Oct 20, 2014 9:55:35 GMT -9
I couldn`t fill my criticism with the same scientific background. What I felt first when I saw your funding Goal was:" What does he need that much money for if the game is almost completed right now. The original Idea of Crowdfunding was to enable someone to reach a goal, which he can`T reach without some money. Now of course KS and others are their own market and actually used for selling, I know that...
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Post by aaron on Oct 20, 2014 17:32:18 GMT -9
Those are all Extremely valid points and though I agree with many of them, I had to crash and burn this time around to prove that same point to investors (with whom I have gone round and round with about the same subjects) I would LOVE for my KS to hit 10k in fact I feel like the amount of effort that I have put into it + the amount of effort that I still have to invest in it is worth double that but like you said oldschooldm it's not about me it about the market. some of my investors (mostly my wife) doesn't see it that way and in fact didn't even want me to wait to have a decent video before launching my KS. I felt uneasy about launching the KS so early without researching the market, a good press release, almost no advertising before hand, No decent video to make it pop, and bailing like crazy to keep it floating. I mean I could go on and on !! about the price points and the T-shirts (I didn't even want to offer t-shirts!! typically they don't do well and it just adds more headaches. though mine seem to be getting a lot of positive feed back from some reason ... weird?? ) So i'm in a bit of a quandary, if the KS fails to fund then I will have the (rare and golden)Opportunity to say I TOLD YOU SO!!!and don't think I won't ... for like , days, and then I can re-tool it the right way and do it again... this time making sure all my ducks are in a row before we Re-launch it. However, that means I didn't make tons of money. so in it's a in your face wait im still poor. If the KS does fund then I will have enough money to invest In launching Pigmi Games and we will be able to produce some very cool titles very soon, HOWEVER, some people (and I won't mention any names) *cough* my wife in-particular *cough * will become unbearable to live with. I'll have money but I will still have to do things her/ their way. I'm so torn. and niksantsurvivedendor the price point isn't really for Temporum Oblitus it's for the three titles we have coming up. we simply don't have enough capital to keep going without crowd funding so really your not buying T.O. your investing in a start up company with several gaming titles such as making a full version Splinterwoods (like a fantasy version of T.O) the deep which is going to be like hero-quest, The black factories which is going to be like space hulk, lost hope which is kind of an arena game for Temporum Oblitus, plus were currently working on a Video game version of T.O. that will be released on steam in the next two years (unless we fund then sometime next year) there will also be a cellphone / tablet app, and an online trading card game as well as a table top version that play kind of like a mix between Magic and Jahad the vampire game and finally Zombie apocalypse the board game that's like hero-quest meats gauntlet all on a table top board game. sooo ya that's what we need the money for right now we have two o.k. computers a bootsy Kodak home camera and a really old server ... we need a lot of stuff. Ultimately if it funds that works for me and if it doesn't then I chock it up as a learning experience, re-tool and try again. but your Input has been golden perhaps more than you know! *printing out oldschooldm's post and accidentally leaving on wife's desk.... * practicing shocked look on face when she asks if I left on desk...*
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Post by arcticdragongames on Oct 20, 2014 21:59:52 GMT -9
Is it feasible to do a KS for one of your minor lines such as the T-shirts or something similar just to get some cash flow and establish a successful KS track record? I am sure that a lot of prospective KS customers are uncomfortable investing in a product from a company that doesn't have a successful KS under their belt. Since you have already done all the administrative tasks for KS this might be viewed as a manageable pilot project.
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Post by niksantsurvivedendor on Oct 20, 2014 23:16:43 GMT -9
So why is the KS then only about Temporum Oblitus if it is planned to fund way more?
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Post by aaron on Oct 21, 2014 2:51:29 GMT -9
arcticdragongames, well that certainly is an idea for future, I don't really like getting into the T-shirt business it's to much of a headache with warehousing (i.e. sitting my my living room or garage) trying to gauge the market and all that and then if that one doesn't fund then I didn't just not make it I ended up loosing money on t-shirts as well... much more risk for very little (if any ) return. niksantsurvivedendor for a few reasons. the first one is that I stand by what I said earlier in that Temporum Oblitus is worth it. it's a solid game and I think it will stand the test of time. A lot of our market share is based off of things that are made for something else (superfluous items for other games). For instance if you play path finder then you can use FD stuff to make your worlds come to life. By themselves they are equivalent to a really nice fantasy Christmas village sitting on a coffee table. they look awesome but serve no purpose. Temporum Oblitus (because it's paper) is being compared to products like this. It's being used the same way. People are taking stuff from it and using it in other ways. but that's not what it is. it's a complete gaming systems comparable to warhammer 40k, War machine,Infinity or any of the games like that the only difference is the paper models and the over all price tag. With just a little more time Temporum Oblitus will be finished and ready to send out to the public. the amount of time depends on the funds that I have to pump into it. One of the biggest reasons why it's being treated like a superfluous model base for other games is that I didn't have the rules up (but I do now *to little to late if you ask me*) and I don't have any demo videos something I have been working on for the last three days but with the equipment I have it's slow going and the video I make won't have the impact I need it to ... like striking after the iron is cold. these are things that (as far as I am concerned were essential elements that needed to be in place before the KS was launched ) that way we could avoid all this confusion from the get go. secondly If I started offering all the other games that we are working on (quietly and slowly) they wouldn't be ready for a much longer time and I can't imagine some one wanting to fund a KS that wasn't going to pay out completely for another two or three years.
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Post by aaron on Oct 21, 2014 9:07:19 GMT -9
For anyone considering a kickstarter, there are lots of links out there. I suggest focusing more on what can go wrong than any magic sauce to get it right. The few bullets in this post ring particularly true, I think: www.crowdcrux.com/5-kickstarter-mistakes-you-should-avoid/1. Putting “You” First. 2. Poor Budgeting 3. Failure to Study Industry Examples 4. Underestimating Social Media Preparation 5. Expecting High Conversions #1, #3, and #4 have been a particular challenge for new Kickstarters, especially in the papercraft arena. I have several friends who have crashed-and-burned kickstarters (games, comic books, papercraft) - each of them tripped up on at least 2 or 3 of these each. Most of them didn't gather enough feedback from their front line supporters before going out. Many of them eventually succeeded on their 2nd or 3rd attempt. Those ones "failed fast" - didn't wait for the first one to fail (time out) before starting the reboot. you know the more I think about this the more it's been bothering me. I get what your saying I really do. but I think were both saying similar things in a different fashion. though I think your first rule of thumb is wrong. 1. putting you first. One of the things they taught in my business art classes was to never sell out. what they meant by this was never sell your stuff for less than it's worth, just to make any kind of money. This sets a very bad precedent and puts you on a downward spiral that's hard to if not impossible to recover from. Once people think of your products as cheap then you can never recover from that. I think this is happened at OBS and maybe even with the papercraft industry. I don't want to sound all high and mighty here because I'm not at all, but most of the stuff you find on OBS is not on the caliber of what I would consider professional. In fact I would call most of it glorified fan art of a fashion, and I'm not the first person to say this (even in these forums). But the problem is if that is the best we can achieve in the papercraft industry no matter how well done and professional a piece is then I see now why many people have walked away. so oldschooldm what your saying is effectively that all paintings should be sold at the caliber of little jimmies paint by numbers set and anything over $12 wont sell very well because people aren't used to Rembrandt or Monet? If this was true then Mona Lisa and the Sistine Chapel were just a waste of time, as they were clearly dabbling in something that little jimmy could have done if you put the numbers in the right place. I'm not trying to compare myself to Rembrandt or Pasternak, but the idea is solid. Their are people on OBS that have sick skills, squirmydad , Tom from Fat Dragon (and yes he is an extremely cool person) you know, the list is pretty long, sadly not as long as the people who are like little jimmy and so people who have talent are lumped in with those that don't. the Internet has made it possible for everyone and anyone to make a game/rpg I think this is a good thing for the most part, except most of them are either a sad clone of D&D or something like it, but every now and then you come across a true gem, sadly it's treated the same as the dirt that it was found in. On OBS I am paying the same for a Monet that I am for a jimmies paint by numbers... why? I think I have just made the decision to not use them anymore. Besides myself, there is still the idea of the bottom line. the idea that if I'm a painter, and it cost me $30 for the paints, $50 for the canvas and $200 for the frame... then I sell my painting for $280 just to break even ... I won't do that because my time is worth more than that I would rather not sell the painting at all then sell it for less than $500. But I know people who would sell it for $100 or worse $50 just to say that they sold a painting. unless you make enough to buy more painting materials your days as a painter are over. The bottom line is all about the farm mentality, If the chickens don't pay for the chickens then it's time to get rid of the chickens. in fact all the things on the farm have to pay for themselves and a little more so they can pay for the farmer to. If the farmer took himself out of the equation their would be no farm. in business you should always put you first. if not then there's no reason to be in business. I know people in Japan who are making papercraft models (yes their typically sexy females to put on your desk an ogle but they sell them for about $50 ) and their making money at it. many of the vehicles I use in Temporum Oblitus use the same techniques that they do and yet they can ask for and expect $50 a model (same downloadable pdf) and I should lower my expectations so that people can pay what they want. you know I really hate to say this because it hurts me, but I think GW in all of their really bad business decisions did something right by showing us that the market will do what it's told. I think I did the right thing putting Temporum Oblitus at 10k. In fact I know I did. I worked for 2 years designing it, building it, putting it together from nothing and in the end if I made 60k for it I would still only be making 30k a year which is really hard to live on. the fact is my product is a representation of that time. the pricing of my game is a reflection of that time. I am so deeply invested in Temporum Oblitus that there is no way to remove myself from the equation. when it comes to the pricing of T.O. "you" comes first. if that means that any attempt at a kickstarter will fail then so be it. I will keep at it though until it does find it's market. so I suppose with item number 1 on your list I most whole hardheartedly disagree and I can site tons of example where the market was changed by people who refused to take the "you" out of it. just for the record though the rest of your points are right one the money LOL
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Post by oldschooldm on Oct 21, 2014 10:56:20 GMT -9
I think this is the last point/counterpoint I'll do on this thread. Bear with me gang. aaron, please read all the way to the end before replying, because there are only 2 questions at the end that really beg a response. 1. putting you first. One of the things they taught in my business art classes was to never sell out. what they meant by this was never sell your stuff for less than it's worth, just to make any kind of money. THIS is the truth: The market tells you what something is worth, not you multiplying an arbitrary hourly rate times the number of hours you spend. BTW, I did not write that post you cite - but given that, you chose to ignore the other four points in it, the ones I pointed out as the usual problems I see in Kickstarters. I never said that, not even close. Please, don't put words in my mouth. Avoid "what you're saying" in debates, it's provocative. I only said one thing: the market sets price. BTW, what did the masters you cite make when they were just breaking into the market? How many of them made a "living wage" during their lifetimes? How many of them sold "master works" for less than they thought they were worth, especially at the start of their careers? Just because you think you are a master, and your game is "worth it" - it doesn't make it so, at least as far as the market goes. So, why not use those models for your pricing? Why are you special? Can you prove that your products worth more than theirs? Have at it! But just asserting "it's awesome" doesn't cut it in the market/Kickstarter. Really? OK. So, you chose option 1 on my 3-choice list "do not sell" into the established marketplace. Good luck with that. It is doable, but harder than you think. This is an unfair comparison. You don't have any significant materials or manufacturing costs. It might be different if you were actually selling the actual paper objects. You can ask JJensen about that option. Make up your mind, is it based on materials (negligible), design costs (time-labor), or is it what the market will bear (it's awesome) that should set prices? I call fowl (oops foul!) Your very own Kickstarter video says "over the last 2 years *in my spare time*" - spare time, by definition, is free. You sunk this cost, period. Are you really saying "japanese sexy female" models are as valuable as your not-market proven tactical game models? The number of dimensions of difference between those cases there should give you caution in making that comparison. Likewise, how do you know how much money they are making at it? Likewise, the photos of your vehicles look very similar to some designed by people on this very forum, and they have already set a price-point on OBS. Are you really saying yours are better than theirs? If that question doesn't give you pause before answering, it should. And you're the guy to tell them! Go get'm tiger :-P Market-Arrogance != Profit And I think you've explained what "right" means to you. Sorry I couldn't help. At least I tried to explain how I think it failed. Not my blog post, not my list. Though I think you missed the meaning of that blog post's #1 entirely and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. "I'm sure I priced this right" says it all. Tons? You only cited GW. That's not tons, that's one. And not really an apples-to-apples comparison. --- aaron, I was really trying to help show you how this [any] market works. You don't seem to be willing to integrate anything that I shared with you, instead picking a single blog-post's item apart and ignoring everything else. That is your prerogative. I've got no skin in this game. But a final parting piece of unsolicited advice that I'll offer you is: when someone with more experience tries to help by offering advice contrary to your choices and that advice causes a defensive reaction (feeling the need to defend your choices), do what I do: Ask yourself "Why is he putting his neck on the line contradicting my choices? What is his main point? Am I considering it and where it comes from? In short: What can I *learn* from this?" Can you do this? Ignore replying to the rest of this post and answer these two questions only: - What did I learn from oldschooldm's microeconomics primer? :-)
- What would I change if I were to do it (kickstarter) again?
So far (based on this message) it seems nothing, as you assert you've only made the right decisions and that if it all goes south there was nothing you could do about it. And if that is the case, I am very sorry for distracting your thread with a mini course in economics and will happily ignore it going forward. Best of luck, OldSchoolDM
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Post by aaron on Oct 21, 2014 12:35:26 GMT -9
ok first I have no beef with you at all and I think your advice is and was VERY helpful, I am taking much of it. I am re-tooling lots of things as we speak/ typing this. I'm not ignoring any of your advice. I am chewing on it pretty hard actually.I am not saying that your experience in the matter is of no value. It most defiantly is, however In this one area only I disagree (which as I understand it is my constitutional right... wait they didn't amend that one did they? ) I think that squirmydad and others are selling themselves short. Does it matter what I think? No but i'm not going to sell myself short because others are that's all I'm saying. I guess I could have said it just as simply as that but then it wouldn't have been all dramatic and long with cool bold text. you have to admit the bold text was kind of cool right? I will say that out of the things I did right the decision on the price point was probably the only one. that's it, pretty much I have made a LAUNDRY list of mistakes in just about every other area. though the art looks nice right? LOL In the end their really is no point in talking about the rest of the post, I could go point and counter point sure but what would that prove? nothing most of it is just my opinion anyway. Look I Know their are masters out their, I'm not saying i'm one of them, I'm not saying I'm not, only time will tell, but maybe just maybe if I hammer away at the idea it might take hold. I've always played numbers against the odds and sure I loose a lot but when I win I win big. I like to think it balances out in the end. I'm hoping that if I can crack this nut maybe others can join me. If not then I'm the only one who looses. Granted the rest of my marketing strategy needs a complete overhaul. I guess that this particular topic has been bugging me for a while and I have been talking with people about it, I'm not the only one who feels this way, in fact their are a lot more people than you might think that feel like Tom and Squirmy dad as well as Mesper and some of the others are really selling themselves short. what about you Old school your defiantly a master! don't you feel this way? oh ya just as a p.s. the spare time thing is kind of misleading, my partner Josh and Trish do this in their spare time but for me it's a full time gig. I am completely unemployed... I mean freelance, so what ever I make from this pays bills buys food that sort of thing... as a P.P.S. Josh's mom just got diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, he's the video guy. I got a call from him just before the KS launched letting me know that I was now the video guy because he needs to be with his mom... cancer sucks.
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Post by arcticdragongames on Oct 21, 2014 13:15:39 GMT -9
Please take my advice with several aggregated grains of salt because I have not published yet nor have I launched a KS. I have been researching KS for a while now to develop ballpark figures (ranges) for funding goals for Tank Shock: WWII. My limited research on comparable start ups that do not have good brand recognition for either their company or their new game has shown me that they get roughly 60-120 backers. Based on that they usually hit their funding goals when the goal is set at an average of the low end of the average pledge amounts multiplied by the low end of the backers.
In the event that my formula has any validity whatsoever, perhaps you could set the initial funding goal at 60ish (backers) x $35ish (a guesstimated average pledge for potential TO customers). 60 x 35 = $2,100. Probably okay to round up to $2,500 or$3,000.
Another common feature I see on KS is getting the customer to take ownership of the development process. Such as "TO needs your support to come to life and give you a cost effective alternative to collect and play a beautifully drawn new game."
My first KS backing was for Loka, made by Alessio Cavatore, formerly a game designer for GW. Being a KS backer got my name printed in the rulebook with the other backers. I am very happy to be recognized as a patron of the arts and I feel a sense of ownership of this new product. I encourage you to help other backers develop a sense of ownership in bringing TO to the world of gamers. I can write material and find text that can help you with this approach.
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Post by mesper on Oct 21, 2014 13:38:07 GMT -9
<...> in fact if Temporum Oblitus doesn't fund it will probably be because I didn't have enough advertising. I have done everything else but bleed for this <...> <...>I had to appease my benefactor. She is getting frustrated that I have been working on this for a little over 2 years with title or no return on her investment. I can see her point but I think if she was just a little more patient we could have had a tighter presentation before we launched. So we could concentrate on sailing the ship rather than patching the holes as we go. Well definitely after spending 2 years(!) working on project I'd be willing to spent some more time trying to make as good presentation as possible. Now, before I'll go to some examples and suggestions, please remember that it is not my intention to deliberately criticise or diminish your work in any way, then also bear in mind that I'm not native speaker:) OK - I wonder what was the idea behind using graphics with some jagged font instead standard/plain text + graphics (as seen in most KS)? IMHO as a result these text descriptions are not comfortable for reading. Then there are many issues with font size, adjustments spacing etc. Actually even if it took you much more time to prepare these graphics compared to simple text + graphics it just looks as made in rush within 1 or 2 hours. I mean - how would you like to attract potential customers and how would you like to convince them that your product is (as claimed) quality one with such presentation? You may say that I'm far too picky and paying too much attention to some details. But truth is that people are just kinda "scrolling" whole presentation and make decision if their like it or not within seconds (so called first impression) and only if answer is yes - they start reading details, watch video and so on. OK - I hope that attached picture helps a bit: Now there is one more thing (vide your discussion with oldschooldm) - I think that most if not all of successful KS have some proven record - one way or another - they are already established publishers (vide CW Forums users like OkumArts Games or Lord Zsezse Works) or participated in many undertakings or similar projects, so people know their achievements, their product and their capabilities as artists and publishers. As artists and designers they have fans and social media followers. But most of all potential customers can easily check out quality of their products by reading forum threads and shop's comments or... simply purchasing some product - no matter if via OBS or directly from publisher's webpage - couple of $ and you can put artist/publisher's product into test BEFORE shelving couple dozens or even hundred bucks for Kickstarter. In other words they might be considered as much more trustworthy if you know what I mean. So actually building kinda "portfolio" and offering your products at OBS etc might be not that bad idea... Also If Temporum Oblitus doens't fund then hold on! I'll finish it up polish it pretty get me some top notch advertising and a slick video and then re-launch it! I do like your art style, so I hope you will not give up! =>>Anyway, please listen to this song: Imany & Friends - Try Again...
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Post by aaron on Oct 21, 2014 14:22:29 GMT -9
thanks for the advice guys arctic dragon I like the idea of personalizing things, that's cool. Thanks Mesper for your incite I will defiantly look more closely at my font choice and spacing. I think the next time around I will have much more time to put things together and I will hopefully not be doing it by myself art is my strong suite (grammar and layout not so much)
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Post by Cardstock Dane on Oct 21, 2014 14:59:56 GMT -9
You'll have to live with a few comments from me as well - they're meant as nothing but helpful advice. 1. putting you first. One of the things they taught in my business art classes was to never sell out. what they meant by this was never sell your stuff for less than it's worth, just to make any kind of money. This sets a very bad precedent and puts you on a downward spiral that's hard to if not impossible to recover from. The reason they teach you that in art school, is that too many artists gets offers to work on projects, that doesn't offer the artist any income, but will put the artists name "out there", give him/her an addition for their portfolio, resume or what have we. This does not apply to a market! It is true, that good marketing can increase your sales considerably, but at the end of the day, your product is worth what people will pay for it - no more, no less. so oldschooldm what your saying is effectively that all paintings should be sold at the caliber of little jimmies paint by numbers set and anything over $12 wont sell very well because people aren't used to Rembrandt or Monet? If this was true then Mona Lisa and the Sistine Chapel were just a waste of time, as they were clearly dabbling in something that little jimmy could have done if you put the numbers in the right place. The comparison is quite off, and not because you art doesn't compare, but because the markets doesn't compare. The market for fine art is not a market like the rpg market, but is a scarce resource market (usually, an artist only makes one copy of a given painting) and it behaves differently - because of the scarcity. Unless you plan to sell only one copy of your game, forget all about Monet or Rembrandt. And speaking of painters, did you know that Vincent Van Gogh sold only one painting during his entire life, and was supported financially by his brother throughout most of it? I think that squirmydad and others are selling themselves short. Does it matter what I think? No but i'm not going to sell myself short because others are that's all I'm saying. Then it does matter what you think, doesn't it? Well, for all it's worth (I will get back to that later), I think your assumption is wrong. Those guys has been on the market for years, and I am sure they got their fingers on the pulse. If anything is the cause of low prices at OBS, it is not the association with cheap competitors, but the competition from cheap competitors. In other words, the market. the Internet has made it possible for everyone and anyone to make a game/rpg I think this is a good thing for the most part, except most of them are either a sad clone of D&D or something like it, but every now and then you come across a true gem, sadly it's treated the same as the dirt that it was found in. On OBS I am paying the same for a Monet that I am for a jimmies paint by numbers... why? Really, the internet has nothing to do with it, maybe except for speeding up the development some. There was plenty of DYI games out there back in the 80's and early 90's. I remember photocopied, unofficial game accessories for both board games and RPG's sold in my local game store, homemade adventure modules, homemade board games with badly printed tokens and game boards, and what have we. It has been a trend in that market for decades, and is one of the reasons that TSR had to throw in the towel at the end (well before every home had internet access). GW seems to be the only ones that have been able to implement a good and lasting business model. Tabletop games in general and RPG's in particular has alwas been subjet to hacks and DIY. After all, when you first have the core rules, who really needs to pay for expansions and adventure models, when you can make it yourself? My first D&D group lasted for 7 years, and it that time, about 75% of the adventures we played was made by our DM. We were definitely not Gary Gygax' best costumers - because we were fans of what he did, and decided to make our own adventures, too! And judging by the vast amount of rpg adventures that readers sent to Dungeon Magazines to be published, we were not the only ones. What I am saying with this, is that the tabletop market is inherently difficult to make a profit out of. And on top of that, it is a small market. More reading about the rpg market here: bankuei.wordpress.com/2010/09/26/so-you-want-to-make-an-rpg/ (especially the part "Don’t expect to make a living on this") graemedavis.wordpress.com/2012/01/28/on-the-economics-of-tabletop-rpgs/in business you should always put you first. if not then there's no reason to be in business. This is as wrong as it could be, and only applies to boybands at the peak of their popularity. In business, you always put the costumer first! He/she is the one that is going to pay your rent, and if he doesn't feel he's put being first, he won't be your costumer for long. Simple fact. You are there because of your costumers - not the other way around. Your product is there to fulfill a need the costumers has - not the other way around. And thus, it is imperative that you have a realistic idea of how much the costumers are willing to pay, or your efforts are doomed to fail. Those were my X cents ("X", because YOU are the one to judge the value of my opinion - not me. ). I wish you and your campaign the best of luck. I would have considered backing your game myself, but as long as Kickstarter is willing to take the money from people outside North America, but not willing to allow them to run our campaigns, I'm boycotting them.
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Post by aaron on Oct 21, 2014 16:46:53 GMT -9
I totally respect your opinion @cardstock Dane. I'm sorry they won't allow you to run your own Kickstarter that does seem kind of unfair but then I don't know anything about the rules of international banking and what not so I guess I can't judge. Moral support is always welcome. It looks like me and Vincent have a lot in common. I have only sold 4 paintings and I am supported by my wife. only I won't be cutting my ear off anytime soon ... I hope. It's not about the market it's about the idea. the idea is universal. Maybe I am just a pretentious paper snob who thinks you guys should be getting paid more than you are, It's funny to me to think that Dungeons and Dragons sells for $50 on the shelf at target but if it was made now a days you could get the whole system for less than $5 on drive through RPG. Maybe I need to kill the kickstarter and approach Hasbro .... then I would have to stand in line behind everyone one else doing the same thing LOL I appreciate all the constructive and other critiques. though the product will stay the same I'll be making lots of changes to my campaign (I can't say what's going to happen with this one I still have some cards left to play though I was hoping not to go down that rout... ) In the end I'm just going to do the best I can and hope it works out. I think that's all anyone can do right? but above all I think you guys are awesome and I don't want you to think that I have taken any of this the wrong way especially you oldschooldm you put a lot of time into your posts and I want you properly thank you for that.
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