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Post by lightning on Aug 22, 2015 20:39:54 GMT -9
just stumbled onto this and am fascinated. as cutting takes up so much time it would be great to have a machine do it for me. but how does it work? how does the machine know where to cut? do i need to setup my files specially? and does it do the scoring also? if yes, how would that work with reverse folding? any tips appreciated. i really need something like this!
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Post by alloydog on Aug 22, 2015 22:52:45 GMT -9
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Post by lightning on Aug 22, 2015 22:58:17 GMT -9
with "this" i was referring to the thread title (automated cutters in general) but specifically i am looking into the silouette portrait. really am getting excited about this if it works :-)
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Post by alloydog on Aug 23, 2015 2:15:16 GMT -9
Ah, yes, I see now. I just saw this thread's title "how does this work?" and never noticed the sub-forum's title.
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Aug 23, 2015 2:29:42 GMT -9
just stumbled onto this and am fascinated. as cutting takes up so much time it would be great to have a machine do it for me. but how does it work? how does the machine know where to cut? do i need to setup my files specially? and does it do the scoring also? if yes, how would that work with reverse folding? any tips appreciated. i really need something like this! Forgive me - I'm typing this on my phone. The Silhouettes have and optical scanner that reads special 'registration marks' printed in the corners of the page. Some models come with registration marks already. Some do not. The silhouette portrait and cameo have a style of registration mark that isn't compatible with the previous generation of machines. Some PDFs include marks for only the older machines, so you'd need to do a little work for those as well. The software that drives the machine is free to download from Silhouette. It's called Silhouette Studio. The free version is all you need. If your sets come with cut files and proper registration marks, you can print the PDFs normally and then cut via Studio. If they do not have the right marks, you can import the images into Studio and print from there, adding the appropriate marks in the process. The machine 'scores' by perforating the paper. This means reverse score lines are cut like regular score lines. Some sets that don't already have cut files made are harder than others to make files for. The graphics needs to fit within a safe area for the cutter. Often times you can cope with this by moving the images around in Studio and printing from there. Hope this helps!
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Post by lightning on Aug 23, 2015 2:40:23 GMT -9
yes, thank you, it does. now i have a better idea how this works. i was esp interested what i need to do when i design new papermodels so that they are usable with such a machine. now i know :-) i think this will be ordered very soon!!!
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Post by squirmydad on Aug 23, 2015 8:48:54 GMT -9
Here's an action video- That initial clickety-clickety-sound is the cut head bobbing up and down and perforating the page. Loads of fun.
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Post by lightning on Aug 26, 2015 4:42:28 GMT -9
ordered!
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Aug 26, 2015 4:51:54 GMT -9
I *love* having a robocutter. It gets lots of use outside of terrain building, too. Just remember - it's a machine, and as such, it'll occasionally screw up and make you want to throw it out a window... Here are some layers you can add to your PDFs for registration marks. The 'cutting_area.png' just highlights the safe cutting area. Don't put it in your PDF - just use it during development to make sure there are only graphics in the red area. The file 'sample.studio3' is just an empty Silhouette Studio cutfile that has the registration marks matched up to the png files. This set has registration marks with a 1" gap at the top if you want to have some product banner/logo stuff up there. www.dropbox.com/s/l0mwc9arp5yn9yb/reg_mark_layers.zip?dl=0This set is similar, but I moved the registration marks higher. If you need more space, this will gain you a little vertical room. If you have product banner/logo stuff up there (or anywhere, really) consider putting it on a separate layer that can be toggled off. www.dropbox.com/s/mtb34fo6tt2qcf2/reg_mark_layers.zip?dl=0I try not to move registration marks to the absolute minimum that the Studio software supports because (a) I want to ensure that things will work on Letter and A4 paper, and (b) the really small margins can sometimes be hard for the machine (at least the two I own) to register.
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Post by lightning on Sept 1, 2015 4:50:05 GMT -9
got the portrait today. tried some stuff out with the software that came with it. cuts nicely but not in place. so i am not sure how it should calibrate on its own. or does it depend on how well you feed the mat manually?!? also had the sticky issue. does this go away in time or should i wash it lightly? and finally when i peel off the cut pieces they are all "curley" and bent. how do you deal with that?
to make my own cut files do i need the studio designer edition version they offer?
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Post by lightning on Sept 1, 2015 5:05:35 GMT -9
after looking at your files i found the registration marks button. so the cutting now works where it should :-)
still the mat needs to learn to let go. and i will now see if i can make an unfold out of inkscape or illustrator get scored and cut correctly.
wish me luck :-)
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Post by squirmydad on Sept 1, 2015 5:17:59 GMT -9
The stickiness goes away over time, washing lightly speeds up the process. Once the mat is not so sticky your pieces won't be curly. I also make my own carrier sheets using repositionable adhesive. Good luck!
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Sept 1, 2015 5:32:23 GMT -9
I had some cutting failures last night... New printer... I think it was scaling the image a little, so the cuts were slightly off. Then I tried correcting that, but sent the page to the cutter with the wrong cutfile, so it was just a total mess. When it works, it's absolute heaven, I swear! When it doesn't work, though... AAaaargh!
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Post by lightning on Sept 1, 2015 6:05:42 GMT -9
i probably had the subconscious fantasy that i could load a pdf file and a beautiful blonde would serve the finished paper model on a silver platter ... with a gorgeous smile ... and a cold pint of beer.
anyway, so right now i am able to drag a png file i created with illustrator (using 1mm line width) with one object into the studio add outside tracing and registration marks and that works (except for the curliness).
if i change the line width to 0.1mm which i usually work with and try trace all (want the score lines too) A) i cant really see the dragged in object and B) the tracing does not work. only parts are recognized.
so i tried it with 0.25mm and the trace all cuts out all the lines as solid shapes, meaning that each dash of the score lines is a little rectangle and the cut line also is a thin shape. it kind of works but i have a lot of tiny parts to clean up afterward and not really what i had in mind.
i would prefer to have the cut and score lines cut like a slit and not a shape. do you know what i mean? any possibility of doing that?
the automatic registration works sometimes and sometimes not. even with the same page. i got it to manually register once. and sometimes even with the registration the cut is a little off.
it all feels a little like gambling for now :-)
i can see it being a big help with prototyping. not convinced about final products yet.
status report over
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Sept 1, 2015 6:26:27 GMT -9
First off, I never use the trace feature. Maybe it has changed, but it always led to more complicated lines than if I just did it by hand. It also is usually the case that what you're tracing isn't perfectly symmetrical. I just don't trust it.
My process for things like buildings is to lay out overlapping rectangles that represent the bulk of the shape, and I fuse them together. Then I edit it, adding new points to pull edges out where there are tabs. Then I add in lines for scorelines. Using features that merge or subtract areas takes a little practice, but it becomes pretty predictable. I would advise against trying REALLY COMPLICATED subtractions... I typically subtract one simple shape at a time, or else I risk crashing studio...
For standees, I draw a polyline around half of the mini, starting from one side of the midline and ending at the other end of the midline - I don't draw a solid shape. Simple click click click to make the line. I don't do curves at this point. I add polylines for negative space that I want to remove, too. When that's done, I select those lines and turn them into a single complex shape. I edit that, select all of the points, except for the straight lines on the base and I turn the points into curve points. It usually *just works* and makes a nice smooth line all around the shape. I do all of the minis along the same center line this way, then I draw the center line.
Next step, I copy all of the half-done minis and the center line, and paste it. Shift+ARROW should be used to move it left FIVE TIMES. I think that's what should line it back up. I then flip the selected lines vertically and move the whole thing down until the midline overlaps the other midline. Once that's true, I delete one midline.
Almost done, I select each top-and-bottom pair that makes the whole mini. I turn that into a single complex line, edit it, join the end points together around the figure's base, and then delete the point it makes there.
Once everything is set, I break the midline apart into sections so I don't have extra scoring going on.
It sounds complicated, but it ends up being pretty quick. A page of minis takes maybe... I dunno... 10 minutes? 15 minutes?
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Sept 1, 2015 6:30:16 GMT -9
Regarding the reg marks being read... if you've got them close to the edge of the page, they may not read well (or at all). I don't believe the software's minimum margins actually work (but maybe they do for others... just not me...) If they don't print out perfectly black (my old printer often printed that area of the page kinda blue/grey) you can just ink em with a sharpie and it should work OK. Make sure though that the printouts aren't being scaled. If they are, then either they won't read correctly, or they will read, but the cuts will be off. What's the other thing I was thinking about.... someone just distracted me.... think think think.... OH! Don't set your blade deeper than 3 - you don't want to be cutting so deep that the blade drags through the cutting mat. I often set my machine to double-cut. There are probably other ideas, too. Older machines had issues reading registration marks in low light. I haven't had that problem with the newer models.
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Post by lightning on Sept 1, 2015 6:53:03 GMT -9
so i can create my own cut lines? like on a new layer? but how do i let studio know that that image file has the cut lines? heaven is maybe coming closer :-)
i just cut 24 shields in 2 minutes. that was fun!!! would have taken ages old school style.
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 1, 2015 7:09:03 GMT -9
Getting there. Maybe the blonde is just around the corner
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Sept 1, 2015 7:22:57 GMT -9
You can not only create your own cutfiles, but you can share them with others! Some folks, I believe, have great success starting from some vector graphics (not my thang) to make cutfiles, but I dunno nuthin' bout that. I make my images in GIMP, export em to PNG files and then pull them into Studio so I can start drawing my cutlines. Can't wait to see the fruits of your labor!
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Post by lightning on Sept 1, 2015 9:13:27 GMT -9
i need to experiment so see if i can "import" precise cut lines. i read somewhere you can import svg files. that would be a good start.
anyway big thanks so far for all the help. could not have done it that fast without your help. would be still dreaming of blondes and have no results :-)
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Post by lightning on Sept 1, 2015 21:11:59 GMT -9
after watching a tutorial i see that i am able - at least for the stuff drawn within studio - to apply different settings for cut and score lines. very, very nice!
now i want to be able to create a document with my model shape, registration marks and cut and score lines from outside of studio. why do double work?
wrote a long email to silhouette explaining my dream (not the one with the blonde :-)) and hope they will be able to point me in the right direction.
paper model gods, do your thing!!!
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Post by lightning on Sept 4, 2015 5:24:54 GMT -9
paper model heaven has arrived :-) my german supplier of the portrait pointed out that I could use the DXF format to transfer line information and it works nicely!!!
on a side note I have no idea what make of the silhouette support. it takes them a whole day to reply (ok, time zones) and it took 4 days of constant going back and forth (what do you want to do? which software are you using? ... etc) to finally deliver my requested info which was the file formats supported by the designer edition?!? they could just put that easy to find on the website! and then after deciding to buy the DE i cannot register it as studio software cannot connect to their server.
so very glad about the tip from the german supplier.
also made A4 portrait and landscape templates including registration marks in illustrator that work like a charm.
so now i can create pdf files with registration marks and cut files. jay!
the cut precision seems very nice. only have black and white line parts for now (prototyping) so am looking forward how this will work with textured parts. probably need to add some safe border outside of the cut line just in case the cut is off for an fraction of a mm?
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Sept 4, 2015 5:51:39 GMT -9
Just a warning about 'A4' templates... If you plan to sell (or share) with folks that use Letter sized pages, make sure your reg marks are within a safe printing area for those folks. The reg marks that I've been sharing and using work fine with both Letter and A4 pages. I generally rely on the cutter being really precise. If it's worth printing and cutting, it's worth edging, and that can cover up inaccuracies if the cut is off a little. Shoot - I've even had cuts off by a mile (my fault...) and I just filled in with color and it worked fine for its purpose. I wouldn't want to do that with minis or anything, but this was just rocks for scenery...
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Post by lightning on Sept 4, 2015 6:13:36 GMT -9
Thanks for the tip. With the working speed I have now I can afford to also create Letter size PDF! :-) But of course a one size fits all file would be best. Have to see if I can get Letter paper here in Vienna ...
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Sept 4, 2015 6:28:30 GMT -9
Thanks for the tip. With the working speed I have now I can afford to also create Letter size PDF! :-) But of course a one size fits all file would be best. Have to see if I can get Letter paper here in Vienna ... No need - just cut A4 to Letter length and try it
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Post by lightning on Sept 15, 2015 7:51:22 GMT -9
I just realized that the silhouette portrait and cameo have different registration marks than the older models. Would I need to make versions for these available too? So a pdf and cutfile for each type of registration mark?
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Sept 15, 2015 8:44:17 GMT -9
I would encourage having layers to support the cameo/portrait and the older 'sd' registration marks. (One PDF, layers for the registration marks.) You don't need separate cutfiles - the end user can toggle the registration marks before cutting. I personally would argue for the newer format as the default, simply because folks using the older format have probably been cutting longer, so they can be more tolerant of manual steps to adjust...
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Post by lightning on Sept 15, 2015 8:56:23 GMT -9
thanks, will look into that. did not know the end user can toggle the layers in Reader when printing.
are there other companies one should think about or is silhouette the quasi standard (at least for our concerns)?
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Sept 15, 2015 9:09:11 GMT -9
For our concerns, it's currently the standard. I believe Cricut has finally come out with a cutter that has an optical scanner for detecting registration marks, but they are likely totally incompatible with Silhouette registration marks (and there's almost no way the cutfiles would be directly portable...) I think Brother might have a cutter, too. Maybe. Dunno. Right now, everyone's been making Silhouette Studio files, which means Silhouette compatibility only. I think if another registration mark format comes along, it'd be easy enough to start adding more layers to PDFs to support THAT as well. The trick would be making sure the 'safe' cutting area continues to be large enough to fit stuff.
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