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Post by Vermin King on Sept 13, 2015 17:53:50 GMT -9
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Post by cowboyleland on Sept 13, 2015 18:37:12 GMT -9
I agree that squishing together buildings at odd angles is a characteristic of old towns. With a few layer options to mix and match the same four building row could be used in a few different places in the same town. Super idea.
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Post by migibb on Sept 14, 2015 1:03:18 GMT -9
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 14, 2015 4:24:04 GMT -9
By the author's own admission, Diagon Alley was inspired by York
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Post by migibb on Sept 14, 2015 7:00:12 GMT -9
By the author's own admission, Diagon Alley was inspired by York I was not aware of that. We took our girls to the Castle Museum in York earlier this year and they have a whole indoor "street" set-up. The girls all thought they *were* in Daigon Alley!!!
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 14, 2015 7:19:19 GMT -9
It's not visually the same by any means, but why I really like the Chester Row concept is that I saw something similar at Pompeii. Along one of the Plazas there was a raised walkway with entrances to the buildings. The guide explained that the lower area was probably for vendors, whereas the upper area was probably for shops or other businesses. One of the 'shops' had something like a 'mews', an entrance to an area with other small businesses opening on that area.
It's a shame we can't hitch a ride on the Tardis to see how these were actually used, but if we did we'd probably set off a volcano or something...
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Post by berneart76 on Sept 14, 2015 9:33:58 GMT -9
I think this idea will become little more common, I was actually mulling it over for some of my harbor buildings as well on how to approach the concept. Some of the references that I use are for Venice, or Rotterdam or Amsterdam and Hamburg. If you look at those the buildings are all close set and are 3-4 stories tall. In those environments the ground or water level of the building is usually the warehouse or shop/working area, with living quarters on the upper levels. also it is helpful to remember that prior to the mid(?) 19th century, cities grew much more organically, with buildings being expanded vertically, and where possible 2nd or 3rd stories being extended out over streets or alleys with balconies, etc.
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 14, 2015 11:05:49 GMT -9
It has been interesting researching this. The main purpose for towns was to supply taxes to the lord. To be a merchant your commerce would supply taxes, but also there was a property tax based on the footprint of your establishment. So they built the lower level smaller than the upper levels in order to reduce their tax burden, and since they weren't taxed on number of stories, they would build as tall as they felt safe (or wanted to climb)and make each upper level just a little bigger in area. This also allowed you to fling the contents of your chamber pot out the window without it slopping on your own merchandise below
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Post by glennwilliams on Sept 15, 2015 7:01:07 GMT -9
BTW, same is true for Tombstone, AZ. I was there a couple of weeks ago and thought a couple of blocks of shops would be a cool model.
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 15, 2015 9:28:56 GMT -9
That's entirely true. I don't know if any of you had a model railroad as a kid, but mine was based on late 1800's Old West. For the buildings, some of the kits were stand-alone, but most were in blocks of two to three. You visit small towns in Europe or the America's (and I'm sure it is the same elsewhere), and most of the buildings are in blocks, not individual.
I'm trying to decide on what style to use. I've been gathering photos, but the photos I'm finding are in tourist areas. The buildings may be old, but I doubt they had the garish red paint and flower boxes at every window. Or painted pink and blue and green. There's a big difference between 'restored' and 'remodeled'. Most of what I am finding is definitely too touristy, if that's a word. I wish I'd taken better photos of the working class old towns when I was in Europe. There was a feel of antiquity, but also a feel of 'in use'. On the other hand, maybe when these old buildings were brand new, they too were trying to attract customers and had bright colors. I don't know, but that isn't the feel I am going to try to achieve
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Post by berneart76 on Sept 15, 2015 14:15:52 GMT -9
I you look at a lot of period paintings, and especially from the Netherlands, most buildings were brightly colored, at least initially. It was one of the few ways common people could get some other color in their life other than greys, greens and browns. I'll look and see if I still have some of my sources with documentation.
The american west was a different matter, where towns were built so quickly, and abandoned so quickly that they were frequently left unpainted, but even there, if the opportunity and time arose they too were painted in what to us would be garish color schemes for the same reason.
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 15, 2015 15:37:37 GMT -9
Time to look up 13th century European landscape paintings
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Post by bravesirkevin on Sept 15, 2015 15:56:40 GMT -9
Time to look up 13th century European landscape paintings 13th century artist has its uses but it falls a bit short in being good reference material due to the stylised nature of paintings from the period. A lot of great stuff showed up in the renaissance though, even outside of Italy. Pieter Bruegel the Elder did some fantastic work in showing the life of the commoner around that time and the were indeed a lot more colourful than modern cinema would have us believe. I think the darker, duller colours came about later during the reformation period when the rise of protestant sects with ideas like Calvinism and Puritanism began encouraging a more austere lifestyle. Incidentally, protestantism played a fairly large role in american history which may go part of the way towards explaining why modern americans and Hollywood in particular tends to see history as being less colourful than it actually was.
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Post by berneart76 on Sept 15, 2015 16:05:58 GMT -9
Here's a start, one at least, 13th century french manuscript illustration
And form a wikipedia article ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_painter_and_decorator) "History of the trade in England[edit] In England, little is known of the trade and its structures before the late 13th century, at which paint guilds began to form, amongst them the Painters Company and the Stainers Company. These two guilds eventually merged with the consent of the Lord Mayor of the City of London in 1502, forming the Worshipful Company of Painter-Stainers. The guild standardised the craft and acted as a protector of the trade secrets. In 1599, the guild asked Parliament for protection, which was eventually granted in a bill of 1606, which granted the trade protection from outside competition such as plasterers.[2]:
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Post by bravesirkevin on Sept 15, 2015 16:11:51 GMT -9
That gives a 403 error
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 15, 2015 16:13:43 GMT -9
I do believe one of the shops has to be a paint store. Interestingly, Florence and Venice seem to be rather more bland than I would have expected
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Post by berneart76 on Sept 15, 2015 16:31:45 GMT -9
the link works for me, but here is the image: Florence and Venice are interesting because of their locations, Most of the colors are going to be derived from mineral based pigments, so aren't going to be excessively bright. Oxides were used a lot, I do not know the names for most of the colors, but a yellow oxide is more of a mustard yellow than schoolbus yellow, greens closer to olive green, blue was obtained from a copper oxide, reds for building paintings were from iron oxides, very similar to today's "barn red".
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Post by bravesirkevin on Sept 15, 2015 16:33:28 GMT -9
I do believe one of the shops has to be a paint store. Interestingly, Florence and Venice seem to be rather more bland than I would have expected At the time, you'd not have bought paint the way we buy it today. They'd have found the raw pigments they favoured by grinding up rocks or plants in a mortar and pestle and then mixed them with egg yolks or linseed oil immediately before applying them. Painting a wall was quite a different experience to the one we're familiar with.
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Post by berneart76 on Sept 15, 2015 16:48:10 GMT -9
amazing the knowledge that gets shared here on what a lot of people would consider to be a very simple concept, papercraft figures and buildings. Stone and brick were rarely painted due to their durability, but brick could be colored depending on local conditions, or occasionally glazed. Wood and plaster/stucco would be whitewashed, but even this could vary due to contaminants or other materials mixed in with the lime.Wood would be left natural or treated with a plant oil such as linseed oil, which occasionally had ash or soot added to it as an additional measure, making it greyish or black. Linseed oil also changes from a straw color to a more caramel color if it is boiled to reduce water content and thicken it. In areas with oak trees, bark tannin added would give a darker brown color as well.
A lot of this also applies to cloth and especially leather. Browns and black dyes for leather were readily available, and were relatively durable. most cloth black dyes were less permanent and had to be refreshed frequently with re-dyeing, which was an actual occupation, the practitioners of which would disassemble the garments to be re-dyed and then re-assemble them. Leather clothing or accessories ( capes, doublets, vests, surcoats, etc) are frequently referred to as being "painted" which is exactly what it states.
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 18, 2015 12:57:23 GMT -9
Another thing that gets in the way here is 'what geography and time frame to represent' English, Scottish, Alsacian, and the list goes on. I've actually been surprised looking at Market Towns, how so many of the buildings in Germany would have fit on a Hastings street and vice versa. Okay, get rid of the modern stuff, but this building could fit in any non-mediterranean setting, and with a little change in texture could fit there. Maybe I'll just do Shakespeare's birthplace and call it good
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Post by room101 on Sept 21, 2015 4:58:37 GMT -9
This has been my number one request for Dave Graffam or Jerry- A row of shops or buildings. I tell my gamers to imagine The Shambles in York as they play, and I approximate it as best I can with what I have, but if you guys can make that a reality, it'd be awesomenessnessness. I've got a plan to kitbash one from Jerry's bakery and Dave's Jumble House, but they're still not really what I'm looking for. I may have to do a proper kitbash myself. I've got around 30 of Dave's and 2 or 3 of Jerry's, so it should be doable, but I'd rather give them money for a finished project. I always feel as though I'm robbing them when I customise.
Mike
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 21, 2015 5:18:00 GMT -9
I'm assuming from your signature photo, that you lean towards medieval English for the style you are looking for. Are there particular shops you would like to see in a block. That might give me a little motivation to finish this up. I started working on the geometry of things, but then couldn't decide what style I wanted to do, or what shops to include. As it stands, I was looking at three shops together, one larger in the middle with two smaller ones surrounding it. One of the small ones is more of a corner structure, so I guess it is more of a middle size. I was also questioning my approach of making this one model as a block or making three individual structures that are designed to abut each other.
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Post by room101 on Sept 21, 2015 7:26:12 GMT -9
Three to abut works well if that's easier; if the beams are sufficiently aligned, textures a close match, and similar roof textures etc, that probably allows for more variety. I envisage bay windows on at least one of them, perhaps an awning on the front of another, that sort of thing. As for types of shops, there are all sorts. Things I'm yet to add to my town are the haberdasher and costumiers, a general store, the apothecarium, the postmaster's office, the book shop, a greengrocer with stalls outside... lots of general stuff really. The tudor look was mostly just about consistency. It's not really set in any one era- it's sort of pre-medieval to late Victorian, same as every other fantasy gaming table :-D A better look at what I have planned is at quest.foolsjourney.co.uk though I've about a dozen buildings done since last site update, just not photographed yet. Not quite responsive yet the site so some page links may not work on mobile devices, but I'm working on that. Mike Thanks for quick reply too Good Sir.
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Post by room101 on Sept 21, 2015 7:28:27 GMT -9
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 21, 2015 11:58:02 GMT -9
Too rustic?
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Post by room101 on Sept 21, 2015 12:34:55 GMT -9
I love the portico idea above the walkway. Not rustic at all. Adds loads of extra gameplay opportunities too.
excellent find.
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 21, 2015 13:04:01 GMT -9
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Post by room101 on Sept 22, 2015 0:12:45 GMT -9
I prefer the former, purely for how they fit with what I have so far, but the arches would be most satisfactory too. It'd be good to hear the needs and wants of others too though.
The one observation I have with Dave's stuff, more in his earlier work than later, is the lack of windows. I feel that for many working premises in the pre electric era, daylight would be at a premium- so I imagine windows to be large (well, large areas made up of small panes obviously) and plentiful, especially on the street facing. This isn't a criticism I hasten to add; I wouldn't have so many of them were that the case.
A sidenote: Last night, while pondering this, I suddenly had a memory from my childhood, 45 years lost. My grandad, when asked what he'd buy if he won the football pools, replied "a row of corner shops with a pub on each end." Made me smile, so many thanks VK.
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Post by Vermin King on Sept 22, 2015 4:06:14 GMT -9
Don't thank me yet. It is very much a work in progress. I think I've decided to separate this out as three buildings designed to abut. I was thinking about the arches. Why not do them as optional pieces? If you want the arches, it would fit over the opening. I think each building can have its own arches piece, so in the same block one or two might have the arches, while the third just has an overhang.
I've been studying Dave Graffam's free models, Hubert Siegmund models and Richard Vyskovsky models (yes, I may have misspelled those). They all have positives and minuses, but they are giving me ideas on the appearance I want, and how they should fit together. They could be the greatest set ever designed (don't get your hopes up), but if they are unbuildable, they will just be files on your hard drive
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Post by cowboyleland on Sept 22, 2015 4:13:14 GMT -9
If they abut, then could it be possible to shuffle them in different orders for different parts of the town? That mixed with leaving arches on or off could make it the only model you need for most of a small town.
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