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Post by WaffleM on Apr 9, 2009 4:49:34 GMT -9
Yet another project I'm starting without finishing the others... ;D Actually this idea game from the Flight Racer rules I'm working on and could have an application for other games. I have an idea how to create a simple counter to keep track of various game stats. For the Flight Racer game this will be things like speed, structure points, ammo, etc. But since I've been out of the gaming loop for a few years, I'm not sure what other games need counters to keep track of numeric values. Is this only a trading card game thing, or do RPGs and Miniature Battle Games need counters too? If you are playing a game where you have to track of the value of certain stats/quantities, I would like to know: - 1. What game are you playing that would be helped by a counter?
- 2. How many stats/quantities do you have to keep track of and what are they (life points, magic levels, ammunition, money, speed, etc.)?
- 3. What are the ranges of those values (1 to 10, 1 to 20, 0 to 37, etc.)?
- 4. What other information would help you in your card counter (troop names, equipment lists, etc.)
Thanks for all your help!
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Post by cobra on Apr 9, 2009 8:04:29 GMT -9
Hi I have some (a lot of) suggestions. I am also working on a couple of racing games (among the about 20 games i am working on - game design is a bit of a hobby for me - although i have to get something finished some day...) In a racing game i would expect to find at least some of the following to keep track of, depending on the complexity of the game: Current Speed: Obviously - you have to know how fast you are moving - i personally dont like games where speed is determined by a dice roll, like Formula D. Games like Speed Circuit and Rush'n'Crush let the player determine the exact speed. Alternatively use a style like in most GW games, where they let the players determine a speed range (slow, medium, fast etc) and during the current round determine the exact speed within that range, determinated by circumstances (terrain, track, other racers etc) Acceleration/Deceleration:If the players can determine their own speed or gear (speed range) each turn, there might be some limits to how much they can change that speed safely each round. For flying games you could add Climb rates, to see how fast a racer can climb to higher altitudes. For simplicity's sake, this could be ignored and incorporated into the vehicle's speed or just allow the players to change elevation by one factor per game round. Handling/Maneuvering:What is the vehicle's ability to handle tight corners, obstacles, special maneuvers etc. Is the vehicle sluggish like an armored truck or WW2 bomber or quick to maneuver like a sports car or a jet fighter? Use this stat as a modifier for a dice roll to make the above mentioned maneuvers. Inspiration here might be games like Speed Circuit and Car Wars. Structure Points:If the vehicle fails a maneuver or is rammed (or hit by a weapon, in combat race games), it might take some damage. Here, the armored truck mentioned above might have an advantage... Some games split this up in 2 values - armor and internal structure. As long as the vehicle still have armor, it will not receive any critical damage. When the armor is gone, the internal structure will be hit, and each time maybe some internal components (cockpit, engine, weapon system, ammo etc) - look at Battletech (one of my all-time favorite games) for inspiration here - it has a nice balance of complexity and playability. Instead of determining armor points, you can use armor as either "saving roll" against damage ( GW style) or as damage reduction - the more armor, the lesser damage will be suffered in an attack or failed maneuver. Piloting Skill:How skilled is the pilot/driver? F1-champion Lewis Hamilton or your average Joe Schmoe the bus driver? If you are planning to only look at the vehicle abilities and ignore drivers/pilots, then this ability might be dropped or incorporated into other vehicle stats. But if you want to create a game where the players get the feeling of being a race driver, and maybe even to create racing teams, then this ability will be important. Some of the already mentioned games use this as modifiers to various rolls in the game, and campaign rules might allow for driver/pilot improvements. Pit Crew Ability:Are you planning on create a race game played on some sort of track which the racers move around on for a couple of rounds, and where the vehicles can enter a pit area for repair and/or refueling/reloading, a pit crew ability can be used for tests on how fast these things can be done. Speed Circuit and various other race simulation games use this ability. It can be part of a team creation rule set. If you are not planning to have a race track style of game, you might consider how much the pilot/driver can make field repairs during the race (then this ability will be the pilot/drivers Repair skill). Or you could just drop the idea of repairs and reloading during the race - there are a lot of games where it is never possible to repair during the gae - the vehicles just have to survive long enough to finish the race (or in demolition style races, be the last survivor). The following stats might be useful in a combat racing game: Gunnery Skill:Another pilot/driver skill - how good is he at using his weapons. Pilot Health:Is it possible for the pilot to be hit during the race, either with weapons, or internal structure damage, then you might consider how much damage he can sustain before he is incapacitated or killed. Look at ames like Battletech for inspiration here (did i mention it is one of my favorite games ). Weapon Stats:If you are using weapons in the game, you have to decide on which weapon types you need, and how effective they are. Modern style weapons like missiles and machine guns, and/or futuristic weapons like lasers, blasters, plasma weapons, railguns etc - games for inspiration is too numerous to mention here - but keep it simple. Machine guns and missiles need ammo - either have an ammo track (yup, Battletech again), or use GW-style ammo rolls ( Necromunda, WH40K etc). The latter is faster and simpler, but tends to be a bit too random - suddenly you have no more ammo, while the former have the disadvantage of added bookkeeping, but let the players control their ammo usage. Money, Spare parts etc:Only important if you want to create team rules and running some sort of campaign game with multiple races. If you are planning to make pregenerated vehicle stats and limit the players to choose between a few different vehicles, then you dont need money or creation points for a single race game. But if you want the players to be able to design their own vehicles and teams, then for a single race game you need to determine point (or monetary) value of the various components and give the players some points or money to build their own vehicles and teams before the race. Your 3rd question: value ranges - this really depends on your game design. Weapons and armor/structure values of course need to be coordinated, so the players are able to actually do some damage to the other vehicles, but not to one-shot kill the opponents (unless you plan on combat to be deadly). Whether you use smaller or larger numbers for damage is up to you, but the larger numbers you use, the bigger the vehicle damage track need to be. Speed and weapon ranges depends on the scale of your game. If the game will simulate long races, but still be able to fit a table, the ranges obviously need to be small, Short races (e.g. multiple rounds on a track) allows for longer ranges. Likewise consider how the relative distances will be regarding to weapons fire - can you shoot at and hit an opponent from far away, or do you need to get close to be able to use your weapons. Hope this helps, and good luck with your game design. /Cobra
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Post by WaffleM on Apr 9, 2009 10:34:13 GMT -9
Wow Cobra! That's an impressive list and it will really help me in my game design. Thanks!!! I'm looking for games where you have to keep track of stats that vary a lot during the game. Like life points or speed, these stats could be up one turn and down the next. Does anyone who plays any skirmish games or any of the "Song of This and That" games have any variable stats they would like an easy way to keep track of? Please note: I mean NO disrespect by saying " This and That" in reference to the Ganesha Games products. They sound really great and I just wish I had friends who were into wargaming... Any gamers out here in Chester County, PA? edit: I forgot to mention that I mocked together a quick prototype and hopefully I have photos posted tonight.
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Post by Dagger on Apr 9, 2009 11:08:28 GMT -9
In keeping with the spirit of paper models and "making your own"... what do you think about a stat card that uses wheels that are dialed to reflect changing stats?... much like a life counter many people use playing Magic. You could even stack multiple stats on one wheel much like the base of a Mage Knight figure, except the dial would be on a stat card instead of on the figure itself.
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 9, 2009 11:14:15 GMT -9
Sort of like a Heroclix base, you mean? Interesting idea. Wouldn't it be a bit complex to design something like that out of card though? Especially if you need one for each unit.
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Post by WaffleM on Apr 9, 2009 16:41:48 GMT -9
Here is the prototype. There are three slides, each is numbered from zero to twelve. One side counts up, while the other side counts down. It could be used for three different stats, or one stat ranging from zero to 1299. Now that I think about it, you could have one 0-12 stat and one 0-129 stat. I made the prototype the size of a trading card so it will fit into a protective sleeve and can be written on with dry erase markers.
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 9, 2009 17:28:24 GMT -9
That's a very cool, simple design. Nice one.
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Post by stevelortz on Apr 9, 2009 17:43:53 GMT -9
Looks like a useful accessory for a lot of games.
If you don't make figure-eight rules for your racers, I'm gonna have to do it myself!
Have fun! Steve
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Post by docryder on Apr 9, 2009 21:28:33 GMT -9
I'd be afraid those would be moved accidentally. Jim had posted on the original PaperWorlds a thing created by GW that had four wheels (two wheels on the short sides of a rectangle) that was kind of like a clix base. I'd trust something like that more myself. But I'm picky that way.
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Post by WaffleM on Apr 10, 2009 3:29:22 GMT -9
I'd be afraid those would be moved accidentally. Jim had posted on the original PaperWorlds a thing created by GW that had four wheels (two wheels on the short sides of a rectangle) that was kind of like a clix base. I'd trust something like that more myself. But I'm picky that way. Do you have a link for the four wheeled counter? I thought of that too and my original plan would have had wheels, but wheels have a few difficulties. You would need some sort of paper fastener for reliable turning and I wanted to make an all paper design. Wheels also take up a lot of edge space and I really wanted to keep it playing card size for the protective sleeves. I was hoping to find sleeves that were side loading so I could have more wheels tabs or more tabs, but if they exist, they are not common to the local stores... Incidentally if you are a math nerd like me, my design could keep track of values 0-0-0 to 12-12-12 in base thirteen. In base ten this would be values from zero to 2196.
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Post by WaffleM on Apr 10, 2009 3:39:25 GMT -9
If you don't make figure-eight rules for your racers, I'm gonna have to do it myself! Have fun! Steve I'm planning on figure eights, but for a while they were giving me fits when it came to collisions. In rear end collisions, you subtract speeds of the vehicles. In head on collisions, you add the speeds. T-bone crashes? They're a bit tricky. I'm treating them as using only the speed of the "crasher" not the target, but this idea still needs some work because the target would be treated as a stationary object for damage purposes and is actually moving. Maybe I need to watch more car crash videos or play more pool... Shooting at cross traffic also raises similar difficulties.
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Post by josedominguez on Apr 10, 2009 4:52:35 GMT -9
The wheels could overlap inside the card...... no need for it to be really big. Can't see a way round the paper fastener though. (Brads I think they are called).
Damage from a T-bone collision would be pretty much the same a hitting a stationary vehicle as far as the physics go. The forward motion of the car being hit wouldn't effect the amount of energy it absorbed in any appeciable way (by that, I mean anything that would need to be factored into a realistic tabletop game).
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 10, 2009 9:53:37 GMT -9
I suppose theoretically, for the paper fastener issue, you could cut crosses into the card (probably in the back side) that fold out through the centre of the wheel and hold it in place while giving it something to pivot round...
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Post by onemonkeybeau on Apr 10, 2009 13:22:01 GMT -9
I have yet to try this, but I saw an idea like this used in a free Macross model I had sitting on my harddrive so please don't give me credit for it! It was designed to let the wings of a jet pivot. You just sandwich the pieces together with the two tabs on the first circle poking through the top two and then folded down. Then glue what you want to pivot on either side, making sure you don't glue the piece that pivots freely. Maybe something like this could be used? onemonkeybeau
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 10, 2009 13:24:44 GMT -9
That's more or less what I was suggesting, yeah, just with different shaped tabs.
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Post by abaddonwormwood on Apr 10, 2009 13:44:04 GMT -9
Umm why limited it to only Cardstock? I mean a brass split pin would/does work a treat. I used this on the Savage World's Wheel of Rises - a handy tool to let you know when the die result is bumped up. The other upside to this is you could texture the pin in to help give it a total feel - ie. rivets.
Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 10, 2009 13:56:59 GMT -9
I suppose not everyone can be bothered to buy a pack of split pins just for this one purpose. Plus the heads tend to be fairly bulky, so while they'll still probably fit into a suitable pocket, it may require a little more leeway.
To be honest, the tab design's not a complicated one to design or build, and if the person assembling it wanted to use a split pin instead, all they'd have to do is not cut the tabs or central cirle and just push the pin through. Doddle.
At least by including the tab lines, options for both versions are included in one easy package.
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Post by josedominguez on Apr 13, 2009 1:36:54 GMT -9
I bought a hand tool from B&Q that puts rivets in leather.... I think that should leave them flush with the back of the card. I'll need to dig it out. (the tool wasn't expensive, I bought it to make parts for some paintball costumes).
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Post by Dagger on Apr 13, 2009 15:09:32 GMT -9
I really like the sliding tab tracker... it's simple, easy to make, and gets the job done.
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Post by docryder on Apr 16, 2009 20:04:15 GMT -9
I'd be afraid those would be moved accidentally. Jim had posted on the original PaperWorlds a thing created by GW that had four wheels (two wheels on the short sides of a rectangle) that was kind of like a clix base. I'd trust something like that more myself. But I'm picky that way. Do you have a link for the four wheeled counter? I had downloaded the image a long time ago, and now I can't find it. It had a really odd file name, and just hunting through my old paper figure files came up with nothing. Maybe Jim can remember, but it's been years now, so don't count on it.
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 16, 2009 23:34:27 GMT -9
I think I've got a pretty good mental image of this idea; if you can give me the sort of dimensions you're thinking would be best, and how many numbers would be most useful on each wheel, I can see about potentially knocking up a version in CAD. Shouldn't take too long. I'm just starting with a rough draft right now, but once I've got dimensions I can tweak it into a working model (all cardstock, no pins, but with places to insert them if you want to).
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 17, 2009 2:49:17 GMT -9
Here's a quick paper mock-up of what I was thinking. The card itself measures 60x80mm, but that's easily changed, and each wheel's just under 30mm in diameter. On these versions I've put numbers 0-15, and made the outside of each wheel a hexadecagon so it's easier to cut out neatly than a plain circle would be. If I'd been sharper I'd have put the numbers sideways on the wheel so the card could be held vertically, so it'd be easier to hold a 'hand'. Then you could also have the names of the stats represented by the numbers written next to the holes (through which the numbers are shown) and have plenty of room to write or type other information. Just to show roughly how it's made, here's a screengrab of my CAD file for the current version. To make it all you do is cut out the four wheels (trimming out the centre circles), cut the four crosses and push the resulting flaps through to the back, and place the wheels such that the flaps can be pushed through the centre and folded back on themselves. Then you just fold the card in half, fold the end flap over to the back and glue it in place. Bear in mind this isn't the actual file - if you try to print this at any decent resolution it'll be tiny.
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Post by WaffleM on Apr 17, 2009 3:23:49 GMT -9
That's awesome!!!
Can you post a photo of the backside of the card? I really like the tabbed "axle" idea. Very innovative!
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 17, 2009 3:41:10 GMT -9
Heh. Yeah, I forgot to take a shot of the back of the card; I'll do it once my camera batteries are recharged. But to be honest, there's not much more to see there than on the front. It's literally the same 60x80mm rectangle as the front, with four small diagonal square holes (connecting the end points of the crosses), and a tab folded over the long top edge. If you look at the half of the screengrab with the crosses, and mentally move the tab at the bottom up to the top, you've pretty much got an image of the back.
But yeah, once I have functioning batteries again I'll show you.
Actually, I'll also do another one and show you the mid-stage assembly, just so's you know for sure how it goes together.
For the record, this 60x80mm card is actually quite handy, as it prints smaller than A5, so you can easily print out two cards to an A4 sheet if you're using a card per unit!
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 17, 2009 19:18:15 GMT -9
Here's a quick snap of the back of the assembled card. I noticed after taking the photo that one of the wheels had slipped out of place, but it was easily refitted. It probably wouldn't have happened if I'd been using a stiffer paper or cardstock. It could also be avoided by applying a little glue to the backs of the folded cross tabs and adhering them to the front of the card. And as promised, here's a couple of shots of the assembly process. First, the unassembled parts; the main card and four number wheels, with holes and slots cut out: You just place the centres of the wheels over the cross slits, and fold the tabs over to secure them and act as a pivot. As I said, a little dot of glue on each tab should easily make it that much more secure once you fold the front closed - or instead you could apply the glue to the open space between the wheels so you don't risk fusing them; that'd still hold the sides close enough together that the flaps don't have room to slip out. After this picture, it's literally just a case of folding the card shut and gluing the end tab round at the back. It probably still needs a little experimentation, but once I've actually got some dimensions and figured out what to put on it in terms of stats and spaces, I can knock out a decent cardstock version which should be much more effective than these flimsy paper jobbies.
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Post by Dagger on Apr 18, 2009 10:24:59 GMT -9
Very nice... I like your idea of putting glue on the tabs, that would also help hold the two halves together.
I would recommend a slight change for the wheels though. Your test build is set up so that numbers are visible on the outside edge of the wheel where it is touched and handled while spinning. I would suggest adding a little more space between the numbers and the outside edge of the wheels... that way the only number that is ever visible is the one in the stat window.
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 18, 2009 11:44:13 GMT -9
I could certainly do that; move the numbers toward the centre and maybe move the wheels in a little too (although not too far of course, otherwise you'd have trouble turning the wheels). Wouldn't eb too much of an issue, either. Not sure it's entirely necessary, though, as surely the point of the thing is to keep track of the stats, which would be quite clearly isolated in the windows; why you'd read the partially-visible numbers on the edge of the wheels is beyond me.
But I'll certainly keep it in mind when I revise it, which I'll do once I get some more input on exactly what people would want on the card (and how big they want the final size to be).
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Post by docryder on Apr 23, 2009 17:22:44 GMT -9
Here's a quick paper mock-up of what I was thinking. That's pretty much exactly what I had seen. I think the dials were on the long sides instead of the short sides, but that's pretty much irrelevant. It works.
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Post by onemonkeybeau on Apr 24, 2009 15:25:53 GMT -9
Excellent build Andy!
Great project! A little texturing and a few graphics and this is first-rate professional looking gaming piece!
onemonkeybeau
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 24, 2009 17:42:58 GMT -9
Thanks! I'll have to redraw it, as my banjoed computer means I've very probably lost the original, but frankly this is one of the easiest things to replicate - it pretty much took me all of half an hour to design in the first place. Once I've got my CAD facilities up and running again, whenever that'll be, I can redo it.
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