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Post by Vermin King on May 20, 2019 16:32:27 GMT -9
I know this is an individual question and there should be a huge range of answers. I have been having fun working up stuff for a game that I'm not even playing, but I visited a church Sunday whose pastor used to be an associate pastor of a church I did Bible School decorations for in the past. He said they are having problems coming up with two elements for their decorations and was wondering if I could help him out. As this needs to be done by the first Sunday in June, I gave a less-committed answer than I wanted to give -- Give my phone number to whoever is in charge of decorations and I will give them a couple ideas. Although I have been enjoying coming up with stuff for this game, I couldn't commit to helping Tanner out. I also haven't had time to try to do that track module for woosh, nor have I been able to do my YRC Onager. I haven't had time to work up my idea for the Investigator Kids vehicle, nor have I had time to work on my LEM for next month. The GM asked me how much he owes me for stuff, and I said that at this point, nothing, but somewhere down the road I might have to throttle back, or get some paper, ink and edging pens. That doesn't account for lost time or design work either. If you were helping someone out with pieces for their game, what would you ask for compensation?
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Post by Punkrabbitt on May 20, 2019 17:44:24 GMT -9
I ask for nothing. I only give as much time or material as I can afford to. I spend more money buying homeless people lunch or bus fare than I do on donated papercraft. And I'm a poor guy (minimum wage worker supporting a family of three.) I find my time is more valuable than the materials.
This drives my wife crazy. I put together PDFs of props to email to people and kill an afternoon or evening do8ng it and she wants to know why I'm not getting paid o.0
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Post by Vermin King on May 20, 2019 17:59:26 GMT -9
It's not that I don't enjoy this, but I just think I would enjoy doing other things more, unless there is some compensation. And I certainly can do things that he would not be able to do. I like to help, and since there are ten players in the game, seven of which are co-workers, I think there is a 'good will' factor to consider, also.
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Post by glennwilliams on May 21, 2019 5:36:15 GMT -9
I think the key is "helping out." Were that the case, then no, just smile and say "you're welcome." I just got voluntold by my wife to design table decorations for our pastor's retirement party. That''l be no charge.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on May 21, 2019 6:09:10 GMT -9
Vermin King, when I started as a volunteer game demo guy for Dark Age Games, I had a chance to speak with a guy who was walking away from it. He gave me some great advice about it that applies to hobbies in general as well: if it starts feeling like work, stop doing it.Seriously.
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Post by Vermin King on May 21, 2019 6:26:01 GMT -9
Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking
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shep
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Post by shep on May 21, 2019 7:32:09 GMT -9
You may remember the board game that I created for my wife's nephew for his birthday last year. I planned the game for about a year and started putting together the rules about 6 to 7 months prior to the b-day, so I could see what else I had to design and build/create. In the end, it became rather time consuming and I spent 3 afternoons for a fraction of the builds alone (he's supposed to build most of the game himself). It was all good fun, but became quite a lot of stress (esp. with my wife) towards the end. And I think that this is the biggest problem with our hobby. We start out small and have fun doing what we do. However, once we get better or even really good, we tend to take on projects too big or complicated to still do this aside real life and work. We would need much more time, yet we don't want to go pro with our stuff, since this would turn a fun hobby into hard work. When you decide to go professional, you are bound to deliver... over and over again and ideally in a short time span. I really don't get how some people here are able to deliver various sets of minis or scenery every month, and yet still work in a full time job that cuts them short of 40 to 60 hours plus prep every week. I myself would love to put some models on say DTRPG to provide some kind of side incom, however little that might be. My RL job is extremely badly paid (at least here in Germany), and basically my wife the teacher provides our family incom. With no kids, so far, this is already kind of on the edge... A more or less steady stream of revenue from sold models would really help. But aside the fear of just not being able to sell anything, there is the fear of losing the fun linked to this hobby. As for helping others... In my gaming group, we every now and then rotate the position of GM, and if any of the other guys seeks my help with graphics, I will help them without charge. If they want me to prepare and print a battlemap or some scenery, I will either pay the stuff and get the money back or they give me the cost in advance. If they want me to paint some minis for them, we will usually negotiate a very fair price for my work (like 10 € for a character mini painted on "Heroic Tier" (meaning loads of details, shading, and highlights), incl. the paint). One time, I painted two battleready Battletech-Lances (8 Mechs) for 50 € and a new in box Warhammer 40k Valkyrie (that now sits in its box on a shelf and waits for me to do anything with it). So, basically I just get repay for my own expenses, but not paid. Anyways, when I get the feeling that the hobby turns into stress and work, I usually take a step back and do less or just for myself. Taking a deep breath and having some totally egoistic fun can be quite helpful and almost a little therapy...
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Post by wyvern on May 21, 2019 7:43:43 GMT -9
I've done a LOT of voluntary work over the decades, including on the RPG hobby side (mostly writing and designing settings and scenarios) - actually far more than actual paid work, in terms of hours and effort put in. The real danger - aside from the burnout comments already made above - is that people will take whatever you do for granted, and then EXPECT you will be willing to do more. Frankly, if you start to charge for things - even if relatively little - people will appreciate what you're doing for them far more, and expect you to just do stuff a lot less from my experience.
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shep
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Post by shep on May 21, 2019 10:19:04 GMT -9
I've done a LOT of voluntary work over the decades, including on the RPG hobby side (mostly writing and designing settings and scenarios) - actually far more than actual paid work, in terms of hours and effort put in. The real danger - aside from the burnout comments already made above - is that people will take whatever you do for granted, and then EXPECT you will be willing to do more. Frankly, if you start to charge for things - even if relatively little - people will appreciate what you're doing for them far more, and expect you to just do stuff a lot less from my experience. That's a thought I had, too, after posting my huge rant above. The problem that people tend to take for granted that if you've done it for free once, you'll do so all the time. Also, if you should do, quit telling people that your design work is really nothing and not worth the attention. Others tend to believe that if you yourself speak small of your work, it cannot be worth as much as the material done by other people. In the end, if people ask you to do little projects for them, they are actually commissioning design work from you. It's no different from commissioning a professional artist, be it an illustrator, graphics designer, or what not. And commissions should be paid – perhaps not as high as from a pro in a professional surrounding, but at least in a way, both sides can agree upon. On a funny side note, I have one friend who sometimes officially hires me to do some graphics work for his office (he's with a medical R&D company), like exchanging or retouching people in photos, or illustrating how certain medication will work inside human organs or cells. Commissions like that are paid professionally with a professional amount of money and me writing a professional bill...
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Post by squirmydad on May 21, 2019 13:45:49 GMT -9
Ask for ink and paper and blades for the project if you don't want to ask for compensation. I do a lot of Theatre work, sometimes for free, and for the free jobs I tell them up front how much time I'm willing to donate to their project and in what capacity. I also make sure that the company reimburses any material or tool costs that the project incurs. And if a free fun job isn't fun then it isn't worth doing.
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Post by cowboyleland on May 22, 2019 11:45:02 GMT -9
Ask for $10 bucks for paper and ink. With seven players they can each pitch in 1.25. That won't kill anybody and you are not "out of pocket" for the ink.
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Post by Vermin King on May 22, 2019 18:30:28 GMT -9
Ask for $10 bucks for paper and ink. With seven players they can each pitch in 1.25. That won't kill anybody and you are not "out of pocket" for the ink. And since there are ten players, even less. And still cheaper than purchasing non-paper elements
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Post by jeffgeorge on May 23, 2019 8:33:50 GMT -9
Once again, I'm late to the party, but here's my two cents' worth.
If I were making things for a game I was actually playing in, I wouldn't sweat my costs...but I would retain the models for my own use afterwards (storage space allowing, of course!). Assembling stuff for a campaign I'm not playing in is a totally other thing, tho. In that case, I'd just be providing a service. I might do the first round for free, to evangelize a bit for papercraft gaming, but the idea behind that is to get someone in that group to pick up the print-and-play ball and run with it going forward.
If you're being asked to create models and minis to lend to the game for limited-time use, and you'll get them back--assuming you have your own use or desire for them beyond that group's usage--you are still totally legit in asking for a liberal contribution for tools and materials. I'd say figure actual cost and double it--that will still be trivial compared to what they'd have to pay for painted WizKids figs and Dwarven Forge terrain, while compensating you nothing for your time and expertise. The "double it" part is to defray hidden but real costs like overhead (lights, heat, glue) and R&D (you had to make a lot of models at your own expense to develop your skills and library of kits).
Actually, now that I think of it, another totally legit ask is for the users to cover the cost of any PDF kits involved, while being clear that YOU, not they, own the right to use the kits going forward. PDFs are generally inexpensive, but good ones are usually not free. I've built up a large library of model kits that I haven't yet assembled, and I'm sure you have too. Just because you already own them doesn't mean they have no value, though--you should still expect the users to reimburse you for the cost of the kit, even if you already own it. You're gonna reinvest that money in more PDFs anyway. Oh, and if you're assembling using kits you got through a Patreon account, I'd still charge the user a kit fee equal to the retail value of the kit, or one month's Patreon fee per kit, as appropriate.
Note that all the aforementioned "fee plans" basically cover your costs, and do nothing to compensate you for your time. Up to this point, I think you're still ethically in the clear regarding the right to use the PDF kits you've purchased (I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not giving legal advice here--just sharing what my conscience tells me about being fair to the original creator of the model kits; you are very unlikely to get sued for sharing assembled models from kits you've purchased legally). If you're repeatedly constructing and selling the same kits to strangers, you probably need to work out some sort of compensation deal with the kit creator, ethically speaking.
On the other hand, if you're being asked over and over again to spend hours of your free time assembling models that will be delivered to the users and never be returned, you would be fully within your rights to charge for your time. For strangers, I'd think you would be justified in asking at least $15/hour, considering that that's going to be the national minimum wage soon anyway. For friends and associates, it's more subjective--but if you're spending time working on things just for them (that you wouldn't otherwise be making) instead of earning money or doing something you want or need to do, you need to get paid something for your time. Otherwise, they're never going to stop asking, and they're going to get a very wrong idea about the value of the product you're giving them and the time you're spending making it for them.
People naturally value things based on the cost to acquire those things, not the maker's actual cost to create them. If you set the value of your time and expertise at $0, people you to whom you give them will quite predictably consider them valueless.
(Hmmm...this probably should have been a blog post. Maybe it will be in the near future...)
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Post by Vermin King on May 23, 2019 9:25:07 GMT -9
And the time going through the library to find what I think would be most appropriate, and what could be used to be a basis for a model that fits and then making the changes to make it work.
But in fairness, I am gaining a better insight as to what gamers want and how to deliver it.
But it really all comes down to time
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Post by jeffgeorge on May 23, 2019 11:12:50 GMT -9
But it really all comes down to time Just don't go giving your life away. Time is the one thing you can't make more of.
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Post by woosh on Jun 11, 2019 23:14:04 GMT -9
technically, even matter(everything physical) itself cannot be created nor destroyed, only changed.
considering time and matter are the basis of everything, you legitimately cant make more of anything.
however, because both things are 'everything', and matter can be changed, what if time can be changed in the same way, but we dont know how?
love me some philosofood.
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shep
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Post by shep on Jun 12, 2019 8:11:55 GMT -9
technically, even matter(everything physical) itself cannot be created nor destroyed, only changed. considering time and matter are the basis of everything, you legitimately cant make more of anything. however, because both things are 'everything', and matter can be changed, what if time can be changed in the same way, but we dont know how? love me some philosofood. In one way you are correct, but then again, on the quantum level, Heisenberg comes into play, and you'll end up being able to only change either time or matter, but not both...
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Post by jeffgeorge on Jun 12, 2019 10:00:22 GMT -9
technically, even matter(everything physical) itself cannot be created nor destroyed, only changed. considering time and matter are the basis of everything, you legitimately cant make more of anything. however, because both things are 'everything', and matter can be changed, what if time can be changed in the same way, but we dont know how? love me some philosofood. OK, I'll bite. Time isn't a "thing", like matter or energy. It's a dimension, like up, down, right, left, forward and back. Dimensions are theoretically infinite, so you my statement that you can't make more time is true, any more than you can make more up or more left. Admittedly, however, the fact that you can't make more time is technically irrelevant to the argument. The real problem is that we have freedom to control our movement only within three dimensions. Our movement in the fourth dimension--time--is constant and outside of our control, at least given our current technology and understanding of the workings of physics. Since we access points in time sequentially, one after another, without any ability to double back or skip forward, we each have a finite number of moments in the sequence before we expire. Collectively, those moments make up your "life," and while most of us are not in a position to reliably assess how many such moments remain to us, squandering a limited and non-replenishable resource seems like a mistake to me. So I amend my original statement: It's less poetic this way, I suppose, but perhaps more accurate and specific. Your move, woosh .
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Post by ignatious on Jun 12, 2019 13:05:55 GMT -9
Ahhh... but doesn't perception make the rigidity of "reality" malleable? It was once said in a song "ain't it funny things can make four days of no sleep seem like the blink of an eye, while eight hours in capitalism becomes a lifetime".
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Jun 12, 2019 17:47:28 GMT -9
Time is really just a side effect of entropy, which is itself just a side effect of gravity.
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Post by woosh on Jun 12, 2019 22:58:58 GMT -9
"Consider, can the universe be justifiably called infinite? Doubtful.
It may not have a discernible end, but it had a beginning, and it's component parts definitely have a limited cosmological shelf life.
Splitting hairs or not, if history tells us anything, its that scientists often make very poor poets. We're all just a ship of fools chasing phantoms, heedless of what really underwrites natural law." - Okabe Rintaro
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Post by jeffgeorge on Jun 14, 2019 9:03:28 GMT -9
I think we may have gotten a bit off-topic...
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Jun 14, 2019 16:22:04 GMT -9
I think we may have gotten a bit off-topic... But we still seem to be having fun...
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Post by glennwilliams on Jun 15, 2019 7:29:28 GMT -9
I had the same experience as VK's original post. Our pastor is retiring, and "they" (aka my wife) want me to do the centerpieces. Originally "they" wanted a full 3D model cruise ship, plane, and bus as the center piece for each (14) tables. Normally, I don't refuse requests from church (I occasionally do stuff for Sunday school, like an Ark of the Covenant or ornament), but that one was a bridge too far. Instead, I offered a centerpiece with pictures of the three and knocked it out. Now, with less than two weeks, a different group has taken charge with new ideas. I'm backing away slowly.
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Post by Vermin King on Jun 15, 2019 17:56:58 GMT -9
I must recommend backing away slowly a bit faster
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