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Post by squirmydad on Apr 17, 2009 20:21:56 GMT -9
Can someone explain to me the benefits of paper terrain, especially ground cloth or playing mat, hills, trees, stuff like that. I already know that buildings and structures are better in paper, but regular terrain items are so easy and cheap to do the old fashioned way that I wonder at the thought of printing out a tables worth of ground covering.
I have also thought of enhancing paper items with flock, sand, foliage clumps, etc. for stuff like rivers, hills and such. This would also involve ruggedizing the terrain with foam-core, to make it more durable for travel, and counteracting the warping that paper tends to suffer over time.
Anyone else doing this? I don't want to be a paper purist if there are better, cheaper and attractive options. That's why we all got into paper miniatures isn't it? JIM
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Post by abaddonwormwood on Apr 17, 2009 21:33:16 GMT -9
Using flock on top of printed green (grass or mold) adds so much depth. Also static grasses.
Mixing folage with cardstock also works a treat - esp. adding plants and planter boxes (flowers and shrubs) to a cardstock tabletop also works a treat.
I love the fact I can have a game, figures and terrain that I can print out myself. Then using older methods to enhance the finished results is a great feeling to the look and even the game play.
Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by stevelortz on Apr 18, 2009 2:26:32 GMT -9
If I'm playing a big battle, I like to use felt to cover the table top. It seems to me it would burn up a lot of ink to cover a table with printed cardstock. I like model railroad lichen for bushes and undergrowth. Lichen dries out over time, but you can refresh it by giving it a soak in glycerine.
A person can get sheets of styrofoam (the open cell kind, not the compacted bead kind) one foot by three feet by one inch in green color at some hobby and craft stores. I've got a set of hills I made with that stuff that I've been using for decades. It's a lot cheaper than Geo-Hex. You can also get a soft foam sold for stuffing cushions. What little I've done with that has worked well.
I've been building some terrain features from Fat Dragon's cliff and mountain set, as you can see from the Gallery. It lookd really good, but I might have to figure out how to give it enough heft that it doesn't slip around in play(maybe velcro bottoms for the felt?).
Have fun! Steve
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Post by luckyjoe on Apr 18, 2009 6:25:00 GMT -9
I used to make most of my terrain with balsa, styrofoam, cast bricks, model RR stuff, etc, but never used paper. Now I use a mixture, a lot of old stuff is being replaced by paper, partly because of weight and storage concerns, but mainly because I get really good results in considerably less time. I do make masterboards with paper print-outs for the playing surface, as opposed to felt or flocked surfaces. I get a much better, modular board much quicker. But as far as hills, I think trying to make them in paper would be too fiddly and, they'd be too flimsy. So I use styrofoam for those things. Same for rocks and rock formations. I have made some trees out of paper but I like my old model RR trees better.
Luckyjoe
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Post by squirmydad on Apr 18, 2009 6:44:52 GMT -9
I can't see making rocks from paper, when you can walk outside and get some. Although the weight reduction would be nice, and if you make flats, you gain that much extra table space, so there are trade offs.
I have always scratch built my own terrain, and am having trouble getting my mind around the utility of going paper for hill and such. I think I will try to work them together, use the paper stuff for what it's good at (good detail and texture) and use the scratch building for large stuff and when I need strength. I'm going to try to replicate some of my favorite terrain pieces from past projects in paper.
@steve, If you put felt on the bottom of your building and terrain, it wont slip on felt table cloths. There is something about two pieces of felt, they like to cling together.
JIM
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Post by josedominguez on Apr 18, 2009 8:33:39 GMT -9
Card hills work well in big massed battle games as you can represent eleavation levels really easily i.e. 'stepped hills'. But you are right, for basic ground cover, the only reason to use printed stuff is continuity i.e. everything is paper! For example, the world works hinterlands set is superb, a tabletop covered in that is marvelous. Great for SOBH/MADRG as they use fairly small battlefields. But for large scale games, you can't beat a flocked paper sheet with detailed card terrain elements. (We use the sacrificial portal etc.. from world works.. your corn field and graveyard scenery do their duty too ) Best of both worlds. Why waste ink and effort in producing a grass plain? Spend the time making figures and buildings Your figures are so good it doesn't really matter whether the terrain is card or scratch built, the figures stand up no matter what. Most other card figures just look out of place with scratchbuilt terrain. There are obvious exceptions like grids and hexes for games that need those.
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Post by Dagger on Apr 18, 2009 10:33:22 GMT -9
I guess one benefit would be consistency. If a printable basic terrain set were available for a particular game, you could ensure that everyone was using the same type of terrain. This is especially important for tournament play. It would also make the terrain more compatible with that particular game... for example some games have rules relating the the height of different structures (hills, buildings, trees, etc)... a level one hill may function differently than a level two hill. With scratch built terrain it might be too subjective as to whether it is level one or level two.
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Post by josedominguez on Apr 18, 2009 10:51:12 GMT -9
That's why I like SOBH and MADRG. It gives the rough dimensions of each terrain piece
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Post by squirmydad on Apr 18, 2009 11:23:49 GMT -9
I guess one benefit would be consistency. If a printable basic terrain set were available for a particular game, you could ensure that everyone was using the same type of terrain. This is especially important for tournament play. It would also make the terrain more compatible with that particular game... for example some games have rules relating the the height of different structures (hills, buildings, trees, etc)... a level one hill may function differently than a level two hill. With scratch built terrain it might be too subjective as to whether it is level one or level two. You hit the point I was looking for. If I build a layout from printable terrain, I can create a game scenario, and just tell people how to replicate the layout. This I think is the perfect use for printable terrain. I'll have to keep this in mind when designing some layouts. JIM
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Post by silentsquirrel on Apr 19, 2009 5:40:49 GMT -9
You know what I hate about printable terrain? The fact that almost every publisher makes their terrain tiles with grids! I don't want grids! Which reminds me, do any of you know of a publisher (excluding WorldWorks) that makes terrain tiles without those stupid grids? Aside from that, I love paper terrain.
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Post by stevelortz on Apr 19, 2009 8:36:52 GMT -9
You know what I hate about printable terrain? The fact that almost every publisher makes their terrain tiles with grids! I don't want grids! Which reminds me, do any of you know of a publisher (excluding WorldWorks) that makes terrain tiles without those stupid grids? Aside from that, I love paper terrain. Some Fat Dragon kits include gridded and non-gridded versions when appropriate. I prefer non-gridded myself when outside the dungeon (space-hulk, whatever). I prefer to use rulers (or the SoB&H measuring sticks) myself, even indoors, but the dominance of the D&D rules set-up for interpreting movement and ranges in terms of 1" grids pretty much dictates those grids being on product that might be used for D&D. Have fun! Steve
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 19, 2009 14:50:25 GMT -9
I think Ebbles makes most of his stuff with and without as well. Certainly those ground tiles available for free on the site (the Mars textures and landing pad designs) all have both gridded and non-gridded options.
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Post by josedominguez on Apr 21, 2009 7:24:08 GMT -9
I guess one benefit would be consistency. If a printable basic terrain set were available for a particular game, you could ensure that everyone was using the same type of terrain. This is especially important for tournament play. It would also make the terrain more compatible with that particular game... for example some games have rules relating the the height of different structures (hills, buildings, trees, etc)... a level one hill may function differently than a level two hill. With scratch built terrain it might be too subjective as to whether it is level one or level two. You hit the point I was looking for. If I build a layout from printable terrain, I can create a game scenario, and just tell people how to replicate the layout. This I think is the perfect use for printable terrain. I'll have to keep this in mind when designing some layouts. JIM The special terrain locations in songs of wind and water are great.... they would make excellent set pieces.
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Post by luckyjoe on Apr 21, 2009 8:13:30 GMT -9
That's a really good point JoseDominguez made about depicting special terrain from a given rules set, like Song of Wind and Water. The same could apply to special terrain from Song of Gold and Darkness. Maybe this could be included in the SGD work you are already doing, Jim, or in a future supplement to the Song series. Special Dungeon and Wilderness Terrain tiles for Song of Gold and Darkness and Song of Wind and Water.
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Post by onemonkeybeau on Apr 24, 2009 15:06:21 GMT -9
Yup, as I was reading this post this exact reason was my answer as well... for prebuilt scenarios, paper terrain is PERFECT.
And I suppose the cost effectiveness is a nice plus for those just getting into the gaming scene.
onemonkeybeau
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 24, 2009 15:23:49 GMT -9
Also, of course, certain pieces of terrain lend themselves better to printouts than others. Relatively simple, boxy shapes are dead easy to print out and fold, and you can make as many copies as you need easily. Things like crates, simple buildings, obelisks etc are perfect examples of this.
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Post by tonsha on Apr 25, 2009 10:51:35 GMT -9
For me, the chief appeal of paper terrain is that it folds flat for storage. Witness the genius terrain Designs of Brian Handley. Engineer at Rolls-Royce: DaveA (P.S. I added the textures many years ago)
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 25, 2009 11:48:54 GMT -9
So that stuff all holds together just using tabs and no glue? That's supremely clever, and something definitely worth thinking about for future designs... Actually I can see that working really well in conjunction with the Ebbles-style ground tiles to make a truly storable battle table! I always liked the idea of making terrain that could be used to store other gaming items (bunkers made from margarine tubs and fruit punnets, buildings made from old washing tablet boxes, and a power plant made from toilet tubes that doubles as a pencil tidy), but it never occurred to me that you could make a table's worth of terrain that folds flat...
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Post by tonsha on Apr 25, 2009 21:20:46 GMT -9
So that stuff all holds together just using tabs and no glue? That's supremely clever, and something definitely worth thinking about for future designs... Actually I can see that working really well in conjunction with the Ebbles-style ground tiles to make a truly storable battle table! I always liked the idea of making terrain that could be used to store other gaming items (bunkers made from margarine tubs and fruit punnets, buildings made from old washing tablet boxes, and a power plant made from toilet tubes that doubles as a pencil tidy), but it never occurred to me that you could make a table's worth of terrain that folds flat... Checkout more pictures from Mr Handley here: www.brigademodels.co.uk/Bifrost%202003/index.htmlThey are about halfway down the page, and the little tanks and APCs are also made from paper... DaveA
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 27, 2009 2:30:07 GMT -9
Very nice; those vehicles look brilliant. For inspiration's sake, is there any chance you could give us a snap or two showing how the terrain pieces tab together? I've had a go at a couple of basic shapes and they're okay, but don't hold as well as I'd like.
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Post by Floyd on Apr 27, 2009 4:28:04 GMT -9
I really like his sense of aethetics for the tree nd wooded area flats. It just looks and feel right. Also, that explosion in the background is neat.
~F
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Post by tonsha on Apr 27, 2009 22:02:45 GMT -9
Very nice; those vehicles look brilliant. For inspiration's sake, is there any chance you could give us a snap or two showing how the terrain pieces tab together? I've had a go at a couple of basic shapes and they're okay, but don't hold as well as I'd like. Aestolon: This will take me a little bit of time to do. I really, really need to do that Elf Commander for the April hoard. The office block tabs just slot into the side of the building - with the 'V' notch cut out to accomodate the middel floor. The large hill section has no separate tabs. Everything is glued to gether...and it just folds flat!!! (How cool is that?) The smaller corner sections have a tab that inserts into a slot on one of the hidden supports. I'll try and take some photos of the reverse sides of these so you can get the idea. The woods and smoke terrain are simply flat pieces of card - basically screens - textured or painted on both sides, with folds to help them stand up. Use a number of different sized ones to make a wooded area. The smoke screens are used quite extensively in Stargrunt 2 which is Brian's favourite game (Or was back in 2003. I believe he got into kites recently) Brian has released some of his stuff as PDF Download. They are known as the Manouvre Group. Here's a couple of links: adamant.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=59686&filters=500_0_10120adamant.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=58275&filters=500_0_10120Bear in mind that the textures in my photos were all added by me. Brian's are a bit more primitive... DaveA DaveA
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 28, 2009 5:19:14 GMT -9
Clever stuff. I'll have to keep that in mind for when I do my next buy, if my own version doesn't pan out.
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Post by kane on Apr 28, 2009 8:55:52 GMT -9
So those sets are 15mm or so? Should not be too hard to blow them up to 30mm and retexture with something from WWG or FDG or your manufacturer of choice.
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 28, 2009 13:39:18 GMT -9
The buildings are 15mm-ish (1:144), but the hills are designed for 28mm or thereabouts (the scale on the page says 1:72, so that'd be about 25mm).
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 30, 2009 18:14:58 GMT -9
I just downloaded the folding hills a few hours ago. I've tried assembling one of the straight hill pieces (at half-size, using the 4-to-a-page option), and I must say that while at first it seems unnecessarily convoluted, the result is actually really impressive.
How did you texture yours, Dave? I'm guessing it was a case of printing a sheet of texture, cutting out the appropriate shapes and just sticking them onto the completed model, amirite?
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Post by tonsha on Apr 30, 2009 21:54:28 GMT -9
No - Brian & I had entered into a correspondence a few years back. I bought a load of his pre-printed stuff, then started discussing my texturing. He eventually sent me some samples of his folding hills. I took the samples and textured the visible poritions myself. I'd like to do them again, now I've got Jim's textures available. Especially the battleground texture. Still, I'm sure your idea would work. Only one way to find out! DaveA
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Post by gawd on May 5, 2009 5:44:19 GMT -9
I finally got around to uploading more pix ... In addition to making easily replicated terrain as you guys mentioned before, to me, the benefit of using paper terrain is aesthetic. I absolutely love the way paper models look w/paper terrain ... there is a consistency of medium that is really appealing. Hopefully, the following will demonstrate what I'm talking about: okay ... that's cool and all, but here's what happens when this terrain is populated by full scale army units: TF troopers hiding out in the woods. TF troopers taking up fire base positions around a hill. Drone & Buzzers hiding out near a hill. Workers, Stalkers, Slashers, & Demolisher getting ready to tear out of woods to gobble up some yummy humans. Showdown ... Demolisher & Buzzers vs. TF troopers w/Nitro guns For me, there's just something more "natural" to seeing paper models w/paper terrain, even if that terrain is "organic" (trees & woods). They just seem to fit better here b/c their relative flatness compared to traditional models isn't as accentuated by their environment.
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Post by luckyjoe on May 5, 2009 6:21:58 GMT -9
Whoa, nice pics and great demonstration of your point. Your units look great. Would you mind posting an Army List that tells what minis you're using for your units? My sons and I are looking at starting some "PaperHammer" Kill Teams and Combat Patrol type games and when I showed them your pics from your Full Scale One Monk Sci-Fi armies pics they were very impressed. So much so that I went online last night and bought all of the Hybrid sets. BTW, if you're interested, there are some nice IG paper models at this site: www.goldenboltersociety.com/paperhammer40k Just scroll down the page. Thanks for posting the new pics. Luckyjoe
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Post by kane on May 5, 2009 6:32:35 GMT -9
Very nicely done. I need to start building again. I go on a tear for a week or two and then just stop. So hard to stay motivated when you never get to game.
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