|
Post by kane on Sept 16, 2010 21:55:13 GMT -9
Tried doing a piece below the floors with a pocket and a tab sticking out from the doors. Yeah, that didn't work. Really do not want to use paperclips but want something to hold them together at any position...
|
|
|
Post by BilliamBabble Inked Adventures on Sept 19, 2010 6:57:13 GMT -9
Some really good points. Very heavy card and personal improvisation has often been the solution! At the risk of hiding all of my artistic short comings behind some sort of "old-school" aesthetic (god knows, I'm somehow trading under it) ... the types of sets these sections are inspired by never had an overlapping or linking feature. The exception, from my inspirational list, being Warhammer Quest which had doorways with plastic slots for joining sections which made the "board" somewhat more solid - however one nearly always ran out of doorways during play. - and perhaps AHQ had door clips? (Check out the first photo in this random thread from Google search www.thepainteddragon.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1590.10 ) My own Dungeon Entrance is clearly inspired by the WHQ archways (*cough of the plagiarist* ) In my printable Basic Pack, the flat "connectors" and stand-up doors help to join the rooms and corridors visually, but perhaps taping coins or similar to these will paperweight down the sections. There may a transparent clip solution in a good stationers. (?) Weights or very heavy card/mounting prevent some sneeze damage put don't go far enough to maintain a totally solid dungeon layout. I think the fact that the pieces or modular and can be cut to any size means that they can be used quickly then swept aside on the gaming table, as opposed to a pre-prepared layout which can be actually glued down, or even placed under glass like Sammo's examples above. The only improvement upon sets in the past is the fact that we all have printers now, so printing to paper and then gluing on a black background doesn't seem so unfeasable, whereas it would have destroyed a pre-print set from the 1980s. Looking back through my GW Floor Plans - there's quite a bit of tear on the cardboard on the underside of pieces (the card was as thin as cereal box card) which suggests that as players we must have experimented with blu-tack straight onto the table. Ugly, primitive, but effective. ;D I'm wondering if there's some easy solutions to this problem. I do like the fact that my stuff doesn't require any precise card modelling experience ( ME GOT BIG THUMBS AND PLASTIC SCISSORS), so I'm not sure I'll be developing anything more advanced than flagstone pieces with half-snip slots - which only solves part of the problem - the layout stays connected put can still be zig-zag squished. It's true that when compared to solid wacking-great square tiles, the modular sections need a lot of management, but at least the DM quickly can create a plan that actually resembles his map, and if they work I think the game can be a more rewarding and unique experience. I will ponder on this further... It's a shame that I haven't been able to post many photos of the sections in use, since recently I'm spending most of my time at my partner's place where ink cartridges and clear surfaces are in short supply, to provide an effective demonstration (*does Governor Tarkin impression*) With regards to room dimensions and shapes, if you're using the Basic Pack, there's some limited advice upon how to overlap pieces and trim away walls to create customisable pieces. Again the intention is that the sections are re-usable whilst almost being disposable enough to chop out certain shapes. Ideally the 3D-effect(2.5D) walls should be retained, but different GM's may have different approaches to this. (I'm hoping that Rusty Axe's Dungeon Demon map editor with my PFDAP packs may solve some of this for some players, but the current version requires a bit of skill turning the maps into printable documents. And the walls are ever so slightly different. For more on this visit: www.rustyaxe.com/apps/dd/artPacks.php ) I'm open to requests for oddly shaped rooms - especially the kind that fit on one sheet of paper. Thanks again, dudes.
|
|
|
Post by kane on Sept 19, 2010 10:14:20 GMT -9
My wife recommended using magnets and a steel board. While a good idea, its also REALLY expensive. I am thinking I will go with the blue/yellow tack BUT I will laminate/contact paper the pieces first! Attach them to each other with connector bits and they should work just fine.
|
|
|
Post by BilliamBabble Inked Adventures on Sept 19, 2010 10:30:10 GMT -9
Excellent idea. Laminate + sticky tack! It suddenly occurred to me - crazy thinking head on .... Does anyone ever use cork or felt notice boards on a gaming table? Small pins may offer a solution with flimsy paper plans.
|
|
|
Post by sammo on Sept 19, 2010 15:25:16 GMT -9
The cork board with pins idea is intriguing, might be an awesome combination of cheap/sneeze proof. The lamination/ticky tack solution might be the ticket as well. I was able to grab a laminater and like a hundred pouches for like 25 bucks at the Sam's Club recently, I imagine prices are similar elsewhere. I ran through a hundred ideas before making my glass table top. I was toying with the steel/magnet solution (pricing it out I found that it was cheaper to put a magnetic sheet on the table then put the steel on the card stock (using metal roofing shingles). Other ideas included a steel table top with a bunch of the rare earth magnets (the tiny discs) to hold down all the corners, I even almost bought an air hocky table with the idea of inverting the pump so it would suck the cardstock down to the table instead of floating the puck (it sounded awesome, but after some thought I nixed the idea). Foamcore tiles work well, but then agin you have to mount and cut everything so that there is no, print this special tile out and toss it on the table for one game night. Anyway, all of that chatter leads only to the custom gaming top I made to use any tiles. ( cardboard-warriors.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=stats&action=display&thread=2077 ) which isn't a solution for most people. Still one of the things I like most about the inked adventures (aside from the retro artwork) is the fact that it doesn't make use of square tiles that you have to line up with another square tile. I really prefer the individual rooms and corridors, it seems to make for a way easier layout and more versitile too. I think the option I like the best that has been sugest here is the laminiation/ticky tack option. It seems to keep the versatility alive, be cost effective and get tiles form your printer to game table in the quickest amount of time.
|
|
|
Post by cowboyleland on Sept 19, 2010 18:42:48 GMT -9
To my way of thinking; GM's should organise their pieces to be pulled out as players advance and the pieces should disappear when players lose the line of sight. If they didn't map as they went then why should we make it easy for them? I even suggest spinning the room they are in from time to time on the pretext of having more room on the table. Who hasn't gotten disoriented in an unfamiliar building and not known which way they were heading? Keeping a map will solve all their problems, but some will trust to their memories. So be it.
If you absolutely want to stick stuff down, I found in a stationary shop in Germany some stuff called "Glue-it" by Pritt. It is a kind of weak two sided tape that turns any sheet of paper into a sticky note. The name would suggest that it can be got in places other than Bavaria, but I have not seen it in Canada (not that I've looked hard.)
|
|
|
Post by sammo on Sept 21, 2010 11:21:03 GMT -9
To my way of thinking; GM's should organise their pieces to be pulled out as players advance and the pieces should disappear when players lose the line of sight. If they didn't map as they went then why should we make it easy for them? I even suggest spinning the room they are in from time to time on the pretext of having more room on the table. Who hasn't gotten disoriented in an unfamiliar building and not known which way they were heading? Keeping a map will solve all their problems, but some will trust to their memories. So be it. I like where you are going with this. I never thought to spin tile placement to disorient the players. I like to make it easy on myself however and there are some other ways to do so and still set up a number of rooms at once. One tactic I like to do is to have a few dungeon chunks that fit together in an odd way. So I can show them one section of dungeon and they know where they are at in that section, but if they don’t map somehow (or pay close attention) they lose track of where they are at in the big picture. Recently (with the layout above) the players had come across a map of the dungeon (which I handed out). Before they arrived at the dungeon I made use of the inked adventures and it altered the layout a little (to make easy use of the tiles). After a few rooms they realized the map they had was off a little form the floor plan I had laid out and stopped using it. However there were several secret areas marked on the players’ map that I hadn’t included in the dungeon layout, since I intended to draw them in as the player’s searched for and discovered their exact whereabouts. In the end the never reffered back to their map and missed the areas. Also, if I do a large layout for a dungeon at once I make sure I only lay out the floor plans and never room contents (which is why the floor plans above are so bare). I also try to do some things unexpectedly, what looks like prison cells might be bedrooms, the “boss” monster is not necessarily in the big room at the end of the dungeon, there are secret areas not included in the initial layout (amazing how a set floor plans puts secret doors off of players’ radars). My 2 cents anyways.
|
|
|
Post by kane on Sept 22, 2010 20:17:41 GMT -9
Tried a couple techniques for covering the tiles in Contact (shelf) paper. Going with covering the bottom than covering the top with 1/4" overlap and wrapping the sides as well. Also, edging the tiles before covering them. Will try and post pics when I get more done...which will be after I get a new black marker. Mine all died!
|
|
|
Post by kane on Sept 23, 2010 21:10:55 GMT -9
Been cutting pieces and mocking things together and coming up with one (and ONLY one) complaint; the lack of dead ends on the hall tiles. The 3D doors take up exactly the space of two walls sections. This makes transitioning them to the halls a bit...odd. I was hoping to use the doors as the connecting bits between rooms and halls (tack on the bottom of the door stuck to the top of the tiles) and that is just not possible without a bit of visual oddness. That and the 3D doors are wider than a single tile, making them overlap in a strange way. I think I may have to make a series of halls in 1", 2", 3" and possibly larger that end in the dead end to give the set more visual cohesiveness. Also, doors that have a base that is 1" wide. The archway could be bigger, but the base bothers me.
|
|
|
Post by sammo on Sept 24, 2010 7:14:39 GMT -9
I see what you are saying, you have to make dead end hallways (or use the short dead end section) to use the door transition tiles.
I never had this problem, I just skipped the transitions and had the corridors overlap into the room tile 1/2 inch (covering the wall image and making an open archway) then setting 3D doors in place to fill the hole (or in cases leaving it open if there was no door). It sacrifices the perfect 3D view of the walls, but it makes layout much much easier.
The only time I needed the transition pieces was when I was going from room to room without a hallway.
Sounds like you need a new tile that dead ends a hallway, sets a door in the middle and spills into a room. You could probably make one with some dead end pieces, transition tiles and a glue stick, but if you need a bunch of them it might be better to make one digitally.
|
|
|
Post by BilliamBabble Inked Adventures on Sept 25, 2010 16:14:18 GMT -9
Crikey, we're really testing this Pack to it's limits. Herein lies the rub... The flat "connector" pieces and the dead-end sections were originally designed to preserve the 3D(2.5D) wall effect. - Mainly to make sure that when walls met at 90 degrees that a corner line of 45 degrees was in the illustration of the "wall". However, I'm beginning to believe that the connectors and dead ends are too fiddly, and that the perspective shouldn't be a priority over practicality. For reasons like this I've avoided too much of fat black outline. The connectors make sense in a set where the corridors are fixed lengths - like in Warhammer Quest, but this set seems to lend itself better to made-to-order maps, where the DM trims corridors to the desired length to exactly match the map in his/her notes. (Like Sammo's examples above). Doors and connectors aside for moment, In terms of retaining a 3-D effect when joining a corridor to a room the DM should simply snip off the corners of the corridor at a 45 degree angle and overlap it on top the chamber tile. The bad news it that overlapping sections may not work easily for players who like to mount onto form card. The 3D stand-up doors were added to the prototype pack by request of players on the Lost and the Damned Forum, who remembering Heroquest, liked their doors to be the be of the standing variety. I shy away from paper modelling, so I wanted a stocky design that would be extremely easy to cut out and assemble (a rectangle). The design of the 3D doors assumes that they fill a flagstone space in a corridor or where a corridor meets a room. This means that all the elements of the map were assumed to already "connected" - i.e. the stand-up doors were not intended to link across two sets of walls and a gap (5 ft = 2ft wall + 1ft gap +2ft wall ) - although in theory they should work, but are probably too short. In other words the corridors already link into the rooms (no dead end pieces) and the doors are just dropped into the aperture. Another short coming of the design of the doorways was that I wanted the door to almost span a corridor whilst still remaining blocky or solid. The door bases overlap onto the flat walls. The bases are in fact a compromise - they just about work along the walls of a chamber whilst also crossing a corridor - I hoped that the colours on the bases would help with this compromise. An early door customisation from Beau was this: EDIT: Apologies for photo sizes - Photobucket hates me tonight. This at least works around the issue of the base overlapping the wall with the 1sq door. Another issue which may be hampering things is that some of the pieces may not be exact in measurement, some of the flat connectors suffer from a slight like of geometric symmetry - a sacrifice in favour of the hand drawn style. It's a long way from perfect and where the doors and the floor pieces or concerned it may seem inconsistent - apart from the illustrative style that is The Basic Pack set tries to allow for choice within the hideous restriction of the 2.5/3D wall effect. I know it's a cliche, but I'm serious when I think people should make this set their own. I am already impressed at the number of different ways people are using these already. Whilst I'm still struggling to put together some smart example photos (it's a question of location and space, really!). I'm still getting my head around what Kane is discovering and I think a review of the door bases may be in order - or alternative bases. Perhaps also larger connectors/adapters? - Although the whole way they are meant to work needs a rethink or scrapping. I'm sorry if not much of the above makes sense - and I really must provide more illustrated/photographed examples! Note: Revision, small improvements or updates to Basic Pack for the next version will be provided as free to purchasers of the original Basic Pack - either as free downloads or as by email request (with an order number). Brane iz now broke. Thanks again guys, Bb P.S. Re. disorientating players: I'm sure at some point I used a circle cut into some black sugar paper to represent the party's torchlight. The circle moved with the figures. This way you can have a whole map laid out and they only ever see 60ft radius - although it can get a little fiddly when meeting monsters and so on. P.P.S I may keep editing the above for sleepy typos.
|
|
|
Post by cowboyleland on Sept 25, 2010 19:40:44 GMT -9
I always wanted to try that circle of light thing! I was going to leave the circle in the middle of the table and move the walls past the party to indicate movement. Never did it in fact.
|
|
|
Post by kane on Sept 25, 2010 20:56:14 GMT -9
Glad to get the wheels turning. All my complaints are EASILY fixed by myself in PhotoShop. They are niggling issues! I really like the idea of everything having the 3D walls and the doors simply bridging the gap. In fact, I'm thinking of making some "open" door/archways for when their is no door, just an opening into another chamber. I will use these to attach rooms and corridors together in every situation.
|
|
|
Post by BilliamBabble Inked Adventures on Sept 27, 2010 13:20:21 GMT -9
I'm very intrigued! Anything which makes the set easier to use whilst retaining the 3D/2.5D wall effect would be a real bonus. If you make some special pieces would you mind sharing them here and maybe I can stick them in a freebie download on the website? (Thinking ahead, if I can include them in a later set, I can definitely line you up the complimentary copies of the next couple of products? - which of course will take a 100 years ... but soon, soon, as the empire expands ... mwhahaha ...)
|
|
|
Post by kane on Sept 27, 2010 19:39:04 GMT -9
Sounds good to me! I will get them done ASAP.
|
|
|
Post by josedominguez on Jan 12, 2012 5:12:14 GMT -9
I've printed everything out at 55% to match up with my battle scale stuff and love of 15mm. Floorplans have then been glued down on magnetic sheeting and cut out. This looks brilliant and won't warp. We are also using steel paper as a background so the floorplans stick. I'll get some photos later
|
|
|
Post by josedominguez on Jan 13, 2012 6:31:24 GMT -9
|
|
|
Post by kiladecus on Jan 13, 2012 15:04:08 GMT -9
I would recommend this... FELT!
It is cheaper than magnets and board! You can grab a piece of felt 1 meter x 1 meter for about $5.00 (USD). You can also get small sheets of felt (about the size of a sheet of paper) for less than a buck ($1.00 USD).
You can cut your sheets in pieces roughly 50mm x 50mm (2"x2") and glue them to the backs of your pieces. Larger tile pieces will require a couple "tack" pieces, but you don't need to cover the WHOLE piece (unless you want to). Sure it may not be fool-proof, but it should work pretty well to keep the pieces in place, without costing an arm and a leg.
That is my craft idea for today!
|
|
|
Post by abaddonwormwood on Jan 13, 2012 21:40:45 GMT -9
Also look at using cork tiles -thin. Print on lable paper and stick to cork tiles then trim to order.
Lord of Wormwood
|
|
|
Post by Sirrob01 on Jan 14, 2012 2:47:21 GMT -9
Rubbery none-slip mat stuff works okay as well, I think it's used in kitchens, comes in big roll.
|
|
|
Post by oldschooldm on Jan 14, 2012 7:48:08 GMT -9
|
|
|
Post by josedominguez on Jan 14, 2012 8:06:30 GMT -9
so much prettier with magnets though
|
|
|
Post by kiladecus on Jan 14, 2012 9:50:25 GMT -9
Actually, what I was saying was lay out a large sheet of felt, and put the pieces on the backs of the cut-outs. The pieces "stick" together like velcro.
But, to each his own! Whatever works for you is the best for you.
Billiam's work is amazing no matter WHAT you mount it on.
|
|
|
Post by cowboyleland on Jan 14, 2012 18:50:02 GMT -9
I use felt terrain for Fur and Buttons and it really works, especially for that warm and fuzzy game. I wonder if I could get a printer that would work on felt?
I like the magnet idea and there is steel paint you can use to make surfaces ferrous. I hear steel paper is pricey.
It would be cool if the doors and linking pieces were re-usable adhesive somethings that would hold everything together.
|
|
|
Post by josedominguez on Jan 15, 2012 5:55:12 GMT -9
I pay about £5 (about $3.50 US) for three A4 (roughly US letter) sheets of steel paper and 50p (about 35c US) for a sheet of magnetic paper. I also play in 15mm so it's not that expensive, you can print directly onto the magnetic sheet, so no prep other than cutting out. They are thin and stay flat, same for transition pieces.... with the added bonus that the weight of the magnet stops them moving and also gives a little bit of grip. Couple that with the ability to use rare earth magnets on larger pieces and you are sorted
|
|
|
Post by Rhannon on Jan 15, 2012 8:14:49 GMT -9
sorry josedominguez, 5 UK pounds are about 7,60 US $ ( and 50p are US 75c ). But this is however a very good price ( or all you should come to buy in Italy ;D )
|
|
|
Post by josedominguez on Jan 15, 2012 9:13:28 GMT -9
he he, I went the wrong way it's Sunday. You are of course correct
|
|