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Post by labrat on Sept 16, 2010 15:09:07 GMT -9
Sanity Studios has created Bellicose - a low-cost juggernaut in an industry dominated by costly money-pits. Table-top war-gaming has endured for many years; but has always had a relatively small following. It can be very rewarding; but has its share of frustrations as well. Some of those frustrations were keenly felt by the authors of Bellicose, one of whom described it like this: βOver the course of a few years, I spent countless hours and hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars trying to build impressive, playable miniature armies. Just as I was making progress, the company completely revised the rules. Suddenly all of my books were obsolete, and my miniatures, too, as the new designs were significantly different from the old ones and they didn't really look right together. I was not alone in my frustrations. I talked to many other gamers who told me that these game companies revised their rules and content on a regular basis. The rule changes between each version did not really enhance game-play, but were seemingly aimed at milking more money from customers by forcing loyal fans of the game to completely re-purchase the rules every few years. The games themselves also seemed obvious devices to promote their lines of miniatures rather than to stand alone as a game in and of themselves.β The goal of Sanity Studios, then, was to create a game that existed for the sake of the game. The result is a fast-paced, easily learned offering good for smaller confrontations, or large-scale campaigns. It is friendly to using miniatures, but it is not necessary to spend a small fortune to buy them. Sanity-Studios does not sell any pewter miniatures at all, so you can mix and match your favorites from different manufacturers. You don't even have to use miniatures. The rules include alternative ideas, and the Sanity Studios website has some free download-able top-down counters that are specifically designed for the game. They also plan to start releasing inexpensive, yet visually appealing, paper miniatures for use with Bellicose. Now you don't have to be a millionaire to enjoy this rewarding hobby. Visit their website for more information: www.sanitystudios.com ;D
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Post by labrat on Sept 16, 2010 15:14:35 GMT -9
I thought you might all appreciate that Sanity Studios, even long before it's inception, has always focused on inexpensive fun. Hence the reason that paper minis have become so important in what we are trying to do.
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Post by josedominguez on Sept 17, 2010 0:40:47 GMT -9
Is it available as a PDF at all? I'm in the UK and currently sorting out paper armies for that 'other' game I could do with a change and the Bellicose setting/armies look really interesting but the preview doesn't really give me any idea of the mechanics of the system.
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Post by labrat on Sept 17, 2010 2:46:53 GMT -9
I am afraid to say that is not available in pdf format for the time being. That may be a possibility in the future. Perhaps not the full on book, but a summarized version or something. For now the best way to get the rule book is to hop on sanitystudios.com to buy a rule book and they will promptly ship it out. It's not expensive and it contains all of the armies as well as the rules of play.
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Post by boffothesane on Sept 17, 2010 5:47:07 GMT -9
And... Simply having Bellicose on your bookshelf will increase respect for you by +1 for anyone who knows it is there. +3 if they are members of the opposite sex. (The ladies all know that Bellicose players are dead sexy!)
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Post by josedominguez on Sept 17, 2010 6:50:51 GMT -9
I don't have to buy wargames rules to impress women.
I have to lie and say I don't
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Post by nikloveland on Sept 17, 2010 8:23:37 GMT -9
LOL! That's how I got my wife... but it was worse when she found out because I actually make those books and not just buy them.
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Post by old squirmydad on Sept 17, 2010 9:41:04 GMT -9
It is a very slick book. Thanks for including the Demon army sample too. ;D
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Post by Sirrob01 on Sept 17, 2010 12:55:29 GMT -9
I'm another one sitting in the "if it was available as pdf" I'd snap it up but as a physical product the shipping price + damage it'll sustain getting to me makes the physical product very unattractive (had a book near on destroyed in post before). I can understand why it's not offered as a pdf. I Just wanted to let you know you might be limiting your market a little by only offering the product as a physical book ....plus I am really curious about the rules...
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Post by onemonkeybeau on Sept 17, 2010 13:33:46 GMT -9
As am I onemonkeybeau
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Post by labrat on Sept 17, 2010 16:04:32 GMT -9
It bears further discussion I think. The will of the people is a powerful influence, so maybe you guys will get your way. A lot of other games do have pdf versions of the books available these days. But Nik is the boss so you may have to work your mojo on him. I think he is pretty big on trying to get everyone to like and be happy with him, so you could use that to your advantage.
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Post by squirmydad on Sept 17, 2010 19:50:43 GMT -9
I suggest making an art free text only version of the rules for PDF. This will encourage play and promote the full art printed version. JIM
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Post by kane on Sept 17, 2010 21:59:23 GMT -9
See, this is why we like Jim so much. Good, reasonable ideas.
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Post by josedominguez on Sept 18, 2010 2:32:26 GMT -9
The only issue with PDF is the 'ease of theft' inherent in it. I can see why a company would avoid it. I've often asked people who download illegal music/films if they would steal a cd or dvd from a shop. Invariably they say no and are annoyed I'd suggest it. Yet a cd/dvd and its cover cost maybe 50p, the remaining Β£9.50 is intellectual property. Same for books vs pdf.... not many would steal a book from a shop, but the majority would 'forward a pdf'. I love books, (one of the reasons I think the kindle, book reader etc... are evil incarnate). As soon as something becomes available digitally I think it loses a lot of its value. Having said that, I want the rules now, so get them on PDF Maybe something could be organised via this forum? I don't think there are many regulars who approve of thieving paid PDF content. Being in the UK means by the time I get the printed version my group will be well on the way with WFB 350th edition (Just like the last one, but skaven have bigger ears).
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Post by Parduz on Sept 18, 2010 3:10:51 GMT -9
I partially agree with the risk of thieving of digital stuffs, but i want to add my very personal opinion:
I have downloaded commercial PDF or scanned games, when there was not the demo available, or when the demo was not enough, for me, to understand the game. Then i bought the things i liked, and thrown away the ones which i did'nt. I may agree to download music 'cause i know what percetange of the 30β¬ of the CD goes to the artists and what go to the sharks (and this is just MY opinion and i don't want to start a flame about it), but when the money i have to pay goes all to who deserve it (artist, eventually producers, and to the hosting sites) i see no reason to steal. If i like it, i buy it. BUT i will never buy anything without having looked at it: i bought the whole Starmada AE line and now i have a ton of printed paper that will never play again, 'cause for me and my friends that game sucks. Because of this, i bought the whole fantasy line of Ganesha Games only after i've got the Song of Blade and Heroes via eMule and i've read it entirely.
So i'll never buy Bellicose Fantasy Battles, or (as example) Mel Ebbles GunCrawl ruleset until i'll find a way to read that ruleset, at least in a demo version.
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Post by josedominguez on Sept 18, 2010 5:10:22 GMT -9
There are so many ways to justify theft. This is what the world has become though and I know I'm in the minority now. It's old fashioned to think that someone should be compensated for the work they have done. I have rules, books, DVDs and games that I have bought and only played once having been dissapointed with them, but the thing is, they are luxuries, I have no god given right to own them. I use review sites, look at samples and trial versions, look at books in shops and buy after playing games my friends have brought around.... there are infinite ways of finding out if a game is any good without resorting to using theived material. As for CDs.... I consider Audi's latest sportscar far too expensive for what it is, it's ridiculous and the men who built it get a fraction of the cash, most goes to directors etc.. But strangely, that doesn't justify stealing one. It's no different, use all of the justification in the world, the only real reason digital theft is so common is that it's easy and you don't get caught. It really is that simple. I buy lots of PDF material and don't use all of it, some of it is great, some of it sucks (like any product). I find it's worth taking a stab, if I couldn't afford a few pounds on a PDF, then I'd imagine I would have better things to spend it on anyway. Digital theft obviously harms those who produce the material, but it also cheapens the product in the eyes of those who are doing it. It's literally worthless isn't it. Sorry to go on about it, but over the years I've heard every single excuse for piracy/copyright theft et... and in all the years I've only heard one I accepted, it was my friend Stu who said 'I don't want to pay for Cd's 'cos I don't have to'. I didn't argue with him, he accepted he was stealing material, he just didn't care. He's the only one who didn't try to fool himself into thinking he was doing something different. A final question: consider the money that goes to parts of the record industry that 'don't deserve it' would that be the people who work nine to five jobs in Virgin megastores, Our price music, Zavvi etc...? Because most of them are out of work now and there are fewer independent music stores left. Sounds just like the gaming industry really, doesn't it. Bellicose is what $18? That's about Β£9 to me, probably not worth making myself into a thief over, but I'd bet the guys at Sanity Studios would appreciate it. I'd love to see a bigger preview or have it available on PDF, hopefully that will happen, but until it does, I can wait, I don't have to to have it right now, I'll appreciate it more when I get it (thus giving it more value to me and my gaming group). Waiting a while until you can get something legitimately is always more satisfying. Unless it's insulin, or in some cases a parachute.
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Post by nikloveland on Sept 18, 2010 5:52:49 GMT -9
We have been thinking about making a Bellicose Lite document for a while now that is basically what Jim suggests. It would be a cut back of the rules and the art. The thing is I don't want to have to maintain two separate documents so it may be easier just to offer the full book instead. Secondly we have a great number of artist that have helped us on this book and I'd like to continue to give them exposure. They deserve it. I tend to agree with Jose that once a product becomes electronic, we (or at least I) tend to have difficulty recognizing the value. I know a lot of work went into it but it just doesn't seem real. That is very silly of me to say since Sanity Studios' major business is in 'non-printed' products. I'm still just grappling with these 'new distribution channels' (as the media would call them). I remember how excited I got when I held the first printed copy of Bellicose Fantasy Battles (BFB). I didn't realize how far we had come until I actually had something physical. It didn't matter that the book was sent to the printer three weeks before that time. Now I also recognize the benefits of the PDFs. Distribution is immediate and easy (which is why piracy is also a concern). Net margins are comparable between physical and electronic products if priced correctly. And the potential market is increased (that last one is more of a softy because that could be said of physical goods sold on-line too). I know exactly where parduz is coming from. I feel the same way. I want to have the full-unadulterated product before I buy it. I typically find I don't play/read/use whatever I find enough to warrant a purchase but that's just how it goes... It could also be that I am so darn cheap. We actually started BFB because our gaming group was sick of paying GW prices to play table-top games, but that's a story for another time. As Aaron has posted in another thread, I'm the master at 'beating around the bush.' I'm sure we will come to some comprise with BFB. I just don't know what. Whether it's a full book copy in PDF form, a quick sheet overview, or just a Word Document (I actually use OpenOffice myself) I hope to get something out there for you guys. And hopefully it will be before GW gets to version 350 of ANY of their games. I really don't worry too much about this community and piracy. You guys (at least the ones I've got to know) are 'alright in my book'. Nik P.S. You know what, I'm gonna do at least something on the spot! If you guys want the book, I'll pay the shipping! (Look, I can be decisive on at least something I know it's not much but I can at least do that (and hopefully Aaron's going to be ok with it ). If you order a book it shouldn't charge you shipping. If it does, let me know.
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Post by Parduz on Sept 18, 2010 6:14:59 GMT -9
There are so many ways to justify theft. This is what the world has become though and I know I'm in the minority now. It's old fashioned to think that someone should be compensated for the work they have done. I have rules, books, DVDs and games that I have bought and only played once having been dissapointed with them, but the thing is, they are luxuries, I have no god given right to own them. I use review sites, look at samples and trial versions, look at books in shops and buy after playing games my friends have brought around.... there are infinite ways of finding out if a game is any good without resorting to using theived material. Jose, we're going OT, but seems to me that i may have been not clear... I've never stolen a single PDF or anything else related to boardgames. I see the value of the works published and i WANT to pay the creators. Yes, i've downloaded illegal copies of some of them. I've always bought what i've played and deleted what i have not used. Wirh "not used" i means "read and liked": if i've tried a game, i've bought it before. I see how this can be labeled as "buy after steal" but we're going to the definition of "stealing"... i think i've not stealed anything, as i've paid for what i've played, no matter how many times. Looking at them before buying it is a thing i pretend (yes, it sounds rude) and so, if i've not a way to read a demo, or a review (some indie games really have no reviews), then i try to find a way to read it elsewhere, 'cause i don't think that "buy blind" is a right thing to ask for a customer, as it was about boxed games in the pre-internet age.
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Post by Parduz on Sept 18, 2010 6:26:03 GMT -9
If you guys want the book, I'll pay the shipping! Even here? It MAY be a good bait, for me. I own the Ganesha Song of Blade and Heroes and the other fantasy books. Nik: I don't know if you know it (if not, i think you should have it, as a gamer and as competitor ). So someone pls tell me: how Bellicose rules compares against SoBH? What's the differences? How much hard is it to build scenarions, campaigns, and "full stories"?
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Post by josedominguez on Sept 18, 2010 6:48:50 GMT -9
From the previews I think Bellicose is more of a massed battle system isn't it? 'Song of...' is small skirmish (they are bringing out a massed battle system soon though). Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Bellicose aimed at the same sort of market as the massed battle games that cost a fortune to play and are rewritten every couple of years to squeeze out more cash? seems to be a 'by wargamers for wargamers' feel to sanity studios too, great ideas with paper minis. From what I can pick up, the mechanics are lots of dice rolled at the same time, then hits rerolled etc.... Big units, fighting big units. I love the Ganesha games system, very easy to customise and create your own forces and scenarios, my group is now looking for a more structured 'massed battle game'. Have we found it?
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Post by josedominguez on Sept 18, 2010 7:06:58 GMT -9
Sorry Parduz, I didn't mean to offend (if I had, I imagine I'd have offended 90% pf the world's internet users): I was making general comment on the state of the world and why PDF was a double edged sword (never understood that one as most swords are double edged... a double ended sword would be more apt to injure the user). My point was that so many people do it, that it's now the norm and not even considered a problem by most. The act of downloading is the theft, whether you keep it or not you've taken someone's intellectual property without permission. Look at computer games, if you buy one and open it, you can't take it back, even if you don't like it. It's part of the buyers agreement. Same with a novel, if you read it and don't enjoy it, then that is aprt of the risk in buying something (and the joy in finding something you love). What if you downloaded an illegal copy of a novel, read it and didn't like it? You've consumed the idea, used the intellectual property and decided not to pay.
I'm not judging or criticising, please don't feel that I am, I'm just pointing out the problem with digital material, it's so easy to 'steal' that people don't even consider it so. Before everything went to mp3, mp4 and PDF it wasn't an issue, you'd have to steal a physical object to obtain it without paying. Essentially, if you own something that was copied without the prior consent of the copywrite owner, it's stolen. Worth making a poll on how people feel about this, considering we are all part of this forum, I'd assume we all have a vested interest in protecting the rights of the small publishers who will revolutionise our hobby if given the chance.
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Post by nikloveland on Sept 18, 2010 7:28:49 GMT -9
Yeah, Jose is right. It's more of a mass combat game rather than the skirmish style that SoBH is. Cloudcaptain described it as such in an email to me: "It's a very attractive set of rules and from the read throughs will play somewhat like HOTT meets WHFB. I think that's a great niche...the only things that needs work are the army lists (to include more of the unit types out there on the market)." Jose, you also right on large quantities of dice. The more dice the better. Now the problem with designing anything (paper minis or games) is that you want to tinker with it. I've got ideas that I think will help improve it but have been focused more on the paper miniatures (and it looks like it will have to wait a bit more with this new work load we have). And parduz, I love collecting fantasy rulesets. It's interesting to me to see what people have come up with. I have only played SoBH once with my wife but I may have to try it again. I've got such a backlog of things to play: I think I counted it out and I have nine complete rulesets from different companies. I also keep finding more (like Elfball) that I want to try. I think I'm in a downward spiral
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Post by nikloveland on Sept 18, 2010 7:41:54 GMT -9
I guess this is an international forum. I didn't think of that (guess that's what I get for doing things on the spot). Ok, so maybe not free shipping but I'll pay 1/2 the shipping to international areas. I just put it to flat-rate $6 for any international shipping. Nik
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Post by kane on Sept 18, 2010 7:51:57 GMT -9
Does Bellicose include the ability to design your own troops and/or armies? By somewhere between HOTT and WHFB does that mean light on special abilities/rules? I've been getting into Warmachine and after playing that, HOTT and Warhammer just feel WAY too generic. Of course, you can't make your own Warmachine troops either, which sucks, but I guess that is the tradeoff. SOBH is good, but WAY too easy to break by combining certain abilities when designing your own troops.
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Post by josedominguez on Sept 18, 2010 7:57:31 GMT -9
SOBH is definately a game to between played by friends... can you imagine a competition? It'd be mayhem. All it would take is one 'rules lawyer'.
Yknow what would be good..... some way of players creating their own troops/armies which could then become official after being moderated. Maybe even a staged approval system? ' experimental' 'in playtest' 'approved' or similar?
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Post by squirmydad on Sept 18, 2010 9:11:51 GMT -9
Being in printed only form is no protection from piracy, all it takes is someone with the free time to scan and convert to PDF for file sharing.
My philosophy behind the whole piracy thing is that it is a advertising opportunity. Sort of like free samples, this is why I encourage a no art version that would even be free for anyone who wants it. Getting people to know and embrace your game is the most difficult thing in this business. You are competing with companies with actual marketing and advertising, as well as competing with designers who offer their rules free.
You really have to decide what kind of balance to maintain between control and maximizing income, to getting exposure and developing a fan base for the game. There is no getting around this. This is why I actually look at the file sharers as a popularity guide. If your files are being distributed by a lot of people, that means your item is popular and wanted by a lot of people. The trick is taking advantage of this rather than lamenting the fact that people always follow the path of least resistance.
I know I have wanted to see my stuff on the file trading search sites, but sadly my stuff was not popular enough there to have anything more than a cursory listing and obscure or ripoff pay for access piracy sites, which means not that many people really wanted my stuff. I think the reason for this, as with any model set, is downloading the file is the easiest part, it's building the damn things that requires work, and that hurdle is what has kept my stuff from reaching it's potential audience. This is why I started pursuing the pre printed and die cut figure sheets, this eliminated the work, and provides a LOT of value to the sets, but requires investment, which I am unwilling to make.
Anyway, my point is that if your stuff is popular enough if will get pirated one way or another. Selling digital copies should be seen as a necessary income source, otherwise all the digital copies of your game will just be pirated copies. People will buy the game if is it reasonably priced. But most importantly, they will buy your rules if they see active support, good introductions to the different aspects of your rules, and good tutorials for your rules.
With today's technologies, I do not understand why more rules writers do not do video examples of play on their website or even within a PDF version of the rules. This way you can introduce a rule, say for movement, then in the video demonstrate it how you intended the rule to be used, so more interpretive FAQ stuff, just a simple video showing the intent and the procedure for applying the rules.
All in all your game will never gain traction with players unless you build upon it and develop it yourself. Do not wait for people to request stuff, or you will have other people running your business, you need to work out what things need to be developed and tested in your game, and do it publicly. Things done behind the scenes, are just that, unseen, unknown and generally not cared about. This is why I started my forum, so I can show the whole process, all the problems and solutions that I found, and is how I built this community of designers who can now use the skills I figured out for myself to make stuff of their own. Bring your game development out of the dark, and start activity showing people what your up to, this will get you input at the time it can help the most, and your community will feel part of the rules development, rather than customers waiting for the next installment to purchase from on high.
I really have put a lot of thought into all this that I am doing, and is why I know for myself that I cannot do it, I'm a moody chaotic and unpredictable sort of creative person who cannot be tied down with all the baggage of business crap. But I can at least share my experience and insight with what I think works and doesn't. JIM
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Post by nikloveland on Sept 18, 2010 9:26:41 GMT -9
Just to let you know I'm also answering some questions related to Bellicose in this other forum thread. The troops are customized by the way you equip them. Equipment rules are part of the sample you can download so you can see what the book says on 'customizing units'. The short summary is as follows: two mounts (but characters can ride other monsters), three armor types + shield, two basic weapons, two specialty weapons, and five long range weapons. That seems kinda complicated but it's not too bad. Only certain units can equip certain items and it tells you that in the unit description. Some armies don't have many options in choosing equipment such as the Horde and Faeries, while others are very versatile (Humans and Elves). It is really the equipment you take that makes units unique. The general rules are designed to be simple with all the complexity being pushed into the individual units. We don't have 'abilities' that are assigned to units because Bellicose doesn't really change the basic rules very much (or it is simple enough to keep repeating). If you like Warmachine, I would say stick with Warmachine. I bought the new rulebook and had a heck of a time trying to even get though it (I got bored trying to remember everything). One thing I do like about Warmachine is the idea of focus points. That's cool. Bellicose Fantasy Battles is 'much' simpler. I think the rules only came to about 14 pages when formated in a Word Document (size 12 font). Bellicose Fantasy Battles is meant for those people who were intimidated by the scope of other expansive table-top systems. We have enjoyed it and can also keep our social connections (outside of just gaming that is ;D). Nik
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Post by Parduz on Sept 18, 2010 10:07:01 GMT -9
Sorry Parduz, I didn't mean to offend Not offense at all. As long as we share ideas and opinions without pretending to own the thuth, we are enriching ourselves . I was just worried to have been clear, since my english is really bad. The act of downloading is the theft, whether you keep it or not you've taken someone's intellectual property without permission. [...] What if you downloaded an illegal copy of a novel, read it and didn't like it? You've consumed the idea, used the intellectual property and decided not to pay. Ok, here is where i disagree. To go in the very opposite direction, imagine that i download the tech manual of a motorbike (the one that explain you how to do that kind of repairs that are usually done by mechanicians): am i still stealing? I think no: it have no use if you have not that bike, and if i own it have the right to destroy the bike trying to do such works. The purpose of the novel is to be read. When you read it you're doing what it was made for. A ruleset is somewhat in the middle of this. It serve to play a game with that rules, not to be read as a novel. AFAIK you can't even copyright the rules, but just the specific theme, the fluff and the "colours" you use to explain them. Before everything went to mp3, mp4 and PDF it wasn't an issue, you'd have to steal a physical object to obtain it without paying Yes but: when in the late '80 my beloved seller let me read the CarWars rulebook before i bought it, i was still stealing? I don't think so. I'm happy to have paid for SoBH, Mechaton, Speed Rally, Hours of Glory, StarFight, and some other small game i don't remember. I think i'm supporting all these producers, even if i've read the very same PDF before paying for it. Jim: The only thing that i don't agree is the reason your minis was'nt shared. They was very well priced, at 3-4$. When you dropped down to 1$ i did'nt saw a lack in value in your products, instead i saw you givin value to gaming and to gamers, even the poor ones (like me). So they did'nt shared your files.
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Post by kane on Sept 18, 2010 23:09:00 GMT -9
Just to let you know I'm also answering some questions related to Bellicose in this other forum thread. The troops are customized by the way you equip them. Equipment rules are part of the sample you can download so you can see what the book says on 'customizing units'. The short summary is as follows: two mounts (but characters can ride other monsters), three armor types + shield, two basic weapons, two specialty weapons, and five long range weapons. That seems kinda complicated but it's not too bad. Only certain units can equip certain items and it tells you that in the unit description. Some armies don't have many options in choosing equipment such as the Horde and Faeries, while others are very versatile (Humans and Elves). It is really the equipment you take that makes units unique. The general rules are designed to be simple with all the complexity being pushed into the individual units. We don't have 'abilities' that are assigned to units because Bellicose doesn't really change the basic rules very much (or it is simple enough to keep repeating). If you like Warmachine, I would say stick with Warmachine. I bought the new rulebook and had a heck of a time trying to even get though it (I got bored trying to remember everything). One thing I do like about Warmachine is the idea of focus points. That's cool. Bellicose Fantasy Battles is 'much' simpler. I think the rules only came to about 14 pages when formated in a Word Document (size 12 font). Bellicose Fantasy Battles is meant for those people who were intimidated by the scope of other expansive table-top systems. We have enjoyed it and can also keep our social connections (outside of just gaming that is ;D). Nik Interesting about the equipment. As for Warmachine being complicated, I honestly don't get that. Its one of the most concise systems I've ever learned. Every unit works the same under the core rules and anything beyond that is noted on each unit/character card. The core of it is no more complicated (and is actually SIMILAR to) HeroClix. The ONLY part that still gets me is all the options for your 'Jacks to do special attacks. Remembering THOSE can be a bit of a chore, but they are entirely optional. Anyway, enough off topic.
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Post by josedominguez on Sept 19, 2010 2:50:49 GMT -9
Sorry Parduz, I didn't mean to offend Not offense at all. As long as we share ideas and opinions without pretending to own the thuth, we are enriching ourselves . I was just worried to have been clear, since my english is really bad. Ok, here is where i disagree. To go in the very opposite direction, imagine that i download the tech manual of a motorbike (the one that explain you how to do that kind of repairs that are usually done by mechanicians): am i still stealing? I think no: it have no use if you have not that bike, and if i own it have the right to destroy the bike trying to do such works. The purpose of the novel is to be read. When you read it you're doing what it was made for. A ruleset is somewhat in the middle of this. It serve to play a game with that rules, not to be read as a novel. AFAIK you can't even copyright the rules, but just the specific theme, the fluff and the "colours" you use to explain them. Before everything went to mp3, mp4 and PDF it wasn't an issue, you'd have to steal a physical object to obtain it without paying Yes but: when in the late '80 my beloved seller let me read the CarWars rulebook before i bought it, i was still stealing? I don't think so. I'm happy to have paid for SoBH, Mechaton, Speed Rally, Hours of Glory, StarFight, and some other small game i don't remember. I think i'm supporting all these producers, even if i've read the very same PDF before paying for it. Jim: The only thing that i don't agree is the reason your minis was'nt shared. They was very well priced, at 3-4$. When you dropped down to 1$ i did'nt saw a lack in value in your products, instead i saw you givin value to gaming and to gamers, even the poor ones (like me). So they did'nt shared your files. When a product is covered under copywrite, any digital storage, distribution or download without permission is copywrite theft. Not my opinion, that's what the law states , (motorbike instruction manuals, demo rules, free samples etc.. are usualy provided by the manufacturer to be download). Digital storage and download are specifically covered under the laws on piracy, there is no prohibition on reading something in a shop unless you are somehow storing it digitally (so aside from all of the murders, the Terminator is also guilty of copywrite theft everytime he reads something), but lots of things we do without thinking about are also covered.... photocopying more than a few pages (usualy 5% but you can't photocopy anything from the bible, which is specifically prohibited... under EU law at least), even putting a DVD on in a school classroom! Then again, depending where you live, the rules vary, for example China doesn't respect Western copywrite laws at all. As for 'you can't copywrite rules' not in essence, but you can protect the book itself e.g. if someone writes very similar rules (without the fluff) then you aren't covered, what they can't do is sell digital copies of your material. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, personally I think the internet has rapidly outgrown our morality, the industry and the law and something new is needed. Trying to stop downloads just doesn't work, my biggest problem with it is this, myself and those who pay for songs, films, rules etc... are subsidising those who don't. What happens if we all start doing it? Why would any creative person then bother getting into an industry that can't pay them? We've seen it hit music and DVD sales, computer games are now the mainstay of most retailers. I always assumed wargaming was safe from this, but with the revolution in PDF and in particular card based figures...... we now have a product that can be entirely obtained by illegal download. I wouldn't do it, I know you wouldn't Parduz, or most of the regular posters here who all feel 'involved'. Many talk of this being a way to get games out to the masses, that was true when the downloads were shoddy scans of 'real books', players would get into a game, then buy the proper stuff and get hold of figures. But for a PDF product, the illegal copy is identical to the real thing. Something new is needed, the best case scenario I can see is pre-printed pre-cuts that are relatively inexpensive. That way even the unapologetic illegal downloader has something to gain by buying the real thing. I feel the real reason Jim's models weren't shared is that most of the people who discovered them felt they had stumbled onto something they valued, as soon as paper models become more popular in the mainstream, you'll be torrented so fast your head will spin I love the idea of Bellicose and paper wargaming in general, it's down to us, those who rave on about how great it is, to actually support it.
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