Post by stevelortz on Sept 22, 2010 16:47:10 GMT -9
Well, I haven't read this thread thoroughly yet, but it inspired me to go to the Sanity Studios website already and order a copy of Bellicose.
Chaosium originally published Perilous Encounters in 1978, and I remember all the discussion swirling through the adventure game industry (we actually called a handful of companies run out of basements, garages and rental storage spaces an industry!). The problem was how to publish material that was compatible with D&D without falling prey to the shoals of TSR lawyer/sharks.
GAMA (Game Manufacturers' Association) was formed for all the small fry to band together to balance TSR's size and power. The term "role-playing game" was invented to avoid using the acronym "D&D". TSR was fighting to keep "D&D" from becoming a generic term for what we now call "role-paying games".
At the time, we discovered that the concept of a rule can be used, but the specific wording of the rule is subject to copyright.
The latest round of argument began when WotC was copyrighting Magic The Gathering (and incidentally, Paper, Scissors, Rock).
Looking forward to Bellicose!
Have fun! Steve
Last Edit: Sept 22, 2010 16:48:49 GMT -9 by stevelortz
Post by josedominguez on Sept 23, 2010 1:45:09 GMT -9
Ahh, remember the good old days when worrying whether using TSRs rules in a supplement would get you in bother.
GWs intellectual property document actually extends to using their artwork in a tattoo!
I'm slightly worried because I've memorised some of the magic rules.
THe only way around this is to go back to using 100% lead in metal minis, that way gamers won't be able to tie their own shoe laces. Let alone remember rules.
I do like to criticise them, but the new WFB book is lovely and the rules seem the most fluid yet, army lists are far better balanced than when I previously played (around 4th ed) and loads of options.
I'm ordering Bellicose in a moment, I've decide not to wait for the PDF and risk an international order. I feel the need to support a company that won't have you killed for putting a wood elf on a round base
Alright, I'm in too, just picked up the book (or paid for it anyway, can't wait to get a hold of it, thanks for the free shipping).
I'd join those that are urging you to go PDF. If you hadn't become the new alien overlords of OneMonk I probably wouldn't pick up a hard copy of a game that I couldn't at least flip through or demo in my FNGS.
Though I guess we don't actually have a FNGS so that argument isn't necessarily accurate.
As for the PDF format, for me personally I like the convenience of getting a PDF immediately and perusing it. If I like it I may even buy a hard copy (I did that with Savage Worlds). It is a lot easier to shell out 8-10 bucks for a PDF then it is to cough up 18 for a book (plus shipping when it isn't offered free ) that I have no clue about.
As for piracy, those that would pirate the game for free are unlikely to buy a hard copy anyway, so though you might wind up with more "free" copies around, you'll also pick up paying customers that may not spring for the hard copy and wind up making more money anyway. i.e. Pirates don't spend money, so they will never be your customers no matter how much you try and stop their piracy. Just my totally unprofessional, unsubstantiated opinion.
I'll let you know what I think of Bellicose when the shiny new book gets here (and I read it).
Post by magpiestear on Sept 25, 2010 0:39:42 GMT -9
I watched one of their figure painters doing a painting demo at the wargaming world championships in Derby (UK) a few years ago (actually might be more than a few). Now he was ostensibly using their paints, because as we know no other paints exist. However we noticed that between demos he was decanting another (much better) make of paint into the GW pots!!!
Oh and they wrote LOTR didn't they?
Back on topic, Jose can you let us know when the package arrives, I'm intrigued as to how long things take to travel across the Atlantic, and how much interference customs do. I don't like waiting for stuff 'cause I'm usually too impatient to get reading or playing, hence I like store bought or PDF stuff for that instant gratification!!
Post by josedominguez on Sept 25, 2010 3:12:12 GMT -9
I certainly will
On a related note..... would it be worth Sanity setting up an unnoficial distributor? i.e. send half a dozen or so copies to one of us and drop an email when someone in the UK has paid for one? That way you'd get delivery in two days for that instant gratification we all love. I get the impression that Sanity is 'by wargamers for wargamers' and this may be a way of building up some more involved gamers (maybe for demos ultimately..... hell, we could organise our own meets). Gaming needs something new, now that local gamestores are just vanishing, maybe this is the way to do it? Postage costs could be covered with army PDFs. Any mileage in that?
As for paints..... I haven't been able to beat my wargames foundry master set, even the yellow paints over black undercoat. It's expensive, but worth it. Games Workshop are hilarious, they produce some of the best quality material in wargaming, but they just can'thelp but mess things up with their over the top restrictions. They are responsible for attracting the majority of new gamers into the hobby (of my regular group 9 out of ten started playing GW games) and manage to alienate most of us within a few years. We are currently playing mordheim and WFB and use paper for everything, GW insistence on only using their stuff drove us away from using any of their models and into the arms of OneMonk! If they were less restrictive then I would be playing a card army with plastic/metal lords and heroes (I love to paint, I can afford what I want, but I don't have the time to paint units).
Post by josedominguez on Sept 25, 2010 5:56:40 GMT -9
I can do it no problem..... maybe send half a dozen with my order? That way we can see how long it takes, what the costs are from your end and any other issues (customs etc...). That would probably only cover those UK players that have already expressed an interest.
Post by nikloveland on Sept 25, 2010 6:37:36 GMT -9
Darn my efficiency! I already sent you a book Ian. It cost me $12.48 to ship it to you which is almost as much as the book! I would definitely like to find someone to do some consignments/distribution over there. It would be super cool. Let me know how long it takes to get to you. I would also be interested so I could tell other people.
Post by josedominguez on Sept 25, 2010 11:43:37 GMT -9
True, but there is already a fair amount of UK interest and shipping from the EU to the UK is just as bad as the other way! No reason why more than one of us can't do this.... one for the UK, one for Germany etc.... posting locally as required.
Post by josedominguez on Oct 1, 2010 6:09:47 GMT -9
It' here So less than a week from the states to my door!
Well put together book and it looks really good.. perfect bound nice shiny cover.
The rules are interesting, totally different take on combat to what I'm used to, seems well thought out and quick to play.
The rules are pretty detailed just not bogged down with special rules
I love the tree of Fae and the fact that most of the army is made up of it's roots..... the 36" redeploy is a lovely rule that really supports the background.
Nice bag of pre-cut models too Someone really needs to get this set up so we can order pre-cuts.
Full rules and 7 army lists for half the price of one army book for 'the other fantasy battle game'. THe army lists are quite short, in this case it doens't hurt e.g. a skeleton can carry a heavy weapon (swords etc...) a flail, lance, shortbow, bow or crossbow and can ride a skeleton steed wear light/medium armour and carry a shield... all of that info fits on a third of a page sa it's considered one troop type with different options, in 'that other game' this would be spun out to five or six pages of troops that only vary in the equipment they carry.
Hey jose, I'm glad you got the rules so quickly. That only took a week!
So while cleaning up my desk a bit, I found an old USB Drive (it was hidden in the bottom of a mug where I hold my pens). So it happens to have some really old stuff on it. One of the things on it was an old version of the rules for Bellicose Fantasy Battles. It is formated rather poorly and doesn't have any pictures but it was available online at one time long ago. The rules have most certainly evolved but the basics are there. If you want to get a feel for how the rules run and what the stats are for, it would give you at least some idea. However, I would recommend buying the book to get the up-to-date version.
Post by josedominguez on Oct 2, 2010 9:39:22 GMT -9
I've read the rules in depth now and it keeps getting better, I can't wait to see how combat works in a game..... ranged combat has resistance taken from each shot so 20 bow shots are each reduced meaning with bad luck: no damage. In close combat all hits are added up, then resistance is taken from the total. I think that really reflects the random nature of 'arrow storms' and the meat grinder effect of a massed melee. It's a subtle difference that I think will have a massive effect on the table.
There's lots of detail in the system and the races are very different in play styles..... nice to be able to have skeleton crossbowmen too unlike that other game!
It needs a different mechanic for spears though..... I really can't do without it! How about when a spear unit is charged it can attack with an extra rank (number of attacks equal to frontage) and gets a damage bonus? Spears could just be an alternative 'heavy weapon' to negate the need to alter army lists.
Oh and the melee resolution is clever, in the first round twice as many models as frontage in contact can fight (as models move out of rank to get the boot in) this doubles in subsequent rounds as the units mingle....... brilliant idea, quick, simple, represents the flow of battle without bogging the game down with moving minis and 'lapping around' etc... Makes combat brutal too I'm off to print out some faeries.
I think having a different mechanic for spears would be a good idea. We did it for flails, and lances, why not spears? Definitely something to put on the list of possible changes. Go ahead and make a house rule for your games for spears, and allow whoever makes sense to be able to have them, and if you find a rule that works really well, let us know about it.
That is one really nice thing about Bellicose, is that it's flexible like that. We understood when we made the game that it would be impossible to cover every scenario, so feel free to make house rules, change something that works better for you or makes sense, and then pass the feedback to us for consideration for changes to the official rules.
Oh and post us a battle report for your first battle. I'd like to know how that goes.
Just ran around and picked up some of the competition:
(yep more scrounging what I'm good at
Assuming I'v grabbed the correct cover picy and it dosen't look to different in print.
This was pretty tough for me as I dislike critiquing others work, but apparently to improve your own stuff you have to analyze others, so consider yourself a labrat (pun intended) . To me it looks like the yellow city is washing out your front artwork, your losing the impact of of the Ogre/Orc and Human battle in the forground. Like the logo you have. The title could use pulling out a little more it again seems to be getting lost in the yellow background. The border on field of glory warhammer look pretty nice but then Empire has real punch to me and no border so it seems to be subjective. I dislike the Ares cover to many muted colours and everything sort of disappears I have to work to see anything. I don't think there's anything wrong with the artwork (although it's tough to see at low res). I think the yellows just overbearing...or I could be commenting on totally the wrong thing...
Post by josedominguez on Oct 3, 2010 5:10:20 GMT -9
In print, the name and the characters stand out from the page a lot better than on screen (it's a very glossy print), the blue glow on the mage's hand really pops. The initial impact of the rulebook is 'comic book' rather than wargame and I think that's more a result of the layout than the art itself, with the art being edge to edge printed.
Looking at the book, I'd assume 'small scale skirmish' rather than massed battle, but the images itself reflects the artwork on the card figures which is nice. The rulebook has a nice 'open' feel to it, where you wouldn't be too frightened to use proxie models and alter some rules.
Looking at the other books, the warhammer cover only works because we are all so familiar with the mythos, the rules and the fact that to most wargamers 'warhammer' is now something invented by Games workshop and not, in fact a historical weapon! Without going back to look, try to describe what's actually on the Warhammer cover...... apart from the big glowing hammer, what's on there?
I don't think the artwork is amateur, but I think the real issue is that it is comic book: but so is the game, the rules are fast playing and designed to support card figures with a definite cartoon style (They have to be, at that scale you can't be baroque and gothic). So, the cover art matches the style of the game, if not the scale.
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