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Post by magpiestear on Oct 3, 2010 8:22:27 GMT -9
Have to agree with Jose in that first impressions of the cover image is 'comic book'/graphic novel. But that's OK, it works. A border of some description might help stop that impression, but it works well. Just take a look at the covers of any of Andrea's rules over at Ganesha. SBH has a cartoony/retro feel to the artwork and cover art, but is currently one of the hottest fantasy rulesets out there (helped by it's instant availability on PDF!!)
Unfortunately we are currently living in a world where second rate rules systems are sold and judged to be excellant due to the high production values of the books they are printed in!! Whilst good rulesets are not even looked at because they don't come in all singing all dancing photo filled gold inlaid tomes! Chipco's rules are a case in point!
There is definitely a snobbishness in abundance within the gaming world.
Just remember that Warhammer is actually an amateur set of rules dressed up in an over produced cover
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Post by labrat on Oct 3, 2010 15:19:00 GMT -9
Ok so based on your comments, it might help if the cover was screaming 'wargame' instead of comic book or graphic novel. But other than that the artwork is decent. I will take that into consideration. The game is still very new, so with possible changes we may eventually change the cover as well. I suppose it all depends. Incidentally, since we are discussing the cover art, it was drawn by this artist gatorgraffix.deviantart.com/and then painted by this artist pulyx.deviantart.com/
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Post by nikloveland on Oct 3, 2010 15:32:05 GMT -9
In the same vein as Labrat's post, the artist in our book were really great to work with. They deserve some praise to helping the pipe dream that was Bellicose get off the ground. We especially appreciate Jason (the cover artist) and what he did for us.
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Post by magpiestear on Oct 3, 2010 17:23:34 GMT -9
Please bear in mind I'm basing my comments on screen shots not on an actual physical copy!!
The artwork is good!
HOTT has a similar cover, edge to edge printed artwork, and I haven't heard anyone comment that it looks amateurish!!
Are the comments from people who have bought it or people who are making excuses for not buying?
If you look at all those other example covers, they all state somewhere/somehow that they are rules for gaming. I think that is possibly all that is missing, although the one on one nature of the image sort of implies skirmish rather than massed battle, but that's being really picky!!
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Post by josedominguez on Oct 4, 2010 8:11:19 GMT -9
I was quite taken with the rulebook when I opened it, I really like the style and I've just worked out why.... it's really reminiscent of the material palladium published. That was a refreshing set of perfect bound books in a world of hardbound AD&D clones, the palladium artwork always had a slightly cartoon edge to it (which I love as I don't really need to take a game where I'm pretending to be an elf all that seriously). The Bellicose rules have that same irreverant feel to them too. A solid set of rules with good structure that treats it's fantasy subject matter as something that's meant to be fun. And not one @*£$@*~£ WAAAAAAAAAAAAGHHH!!!!!!! in the whole book, which is refreshing Magpiestear..... mine arrived in less than a week, but I think we are going to try an experimental 'fan distribution network' that could speed even that up.
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Post by nikloveland on Oct 13, 2010 14:13:20 GMT -9
Thanks for the nice comments! Hope you can get it to the table soon and see it in action. I think we are going to try an experimental 'fan distribution network' that could speed even that up. I sent the 'package' yesterday so it's on the way.
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Post by josedominguez on Oct 16, 2010 2:02:00 GMT -9
Excellent Should mean two day delivery time for UK orders (Not many local post offices in the UK now, but there's still one in my street!)
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Post by squirmydad on Oct 18, 2010 20:00:23 GMT -9
I've been reading over my copy for the last few days and am quite impressed with it as a first effort!
The book art and layout are fine, and I really like there is art on every page, it really helps get you in the spirit of the game rules.
I am still reading over the different armies and the structure of the game turns, so will reserve my comments until I understand them a bit better. On the surface the system seems quite logical, and I like the split phases, a nice compromise between IGO-YGO and separate unit activation. The armies are your standard fantasy fare with the same options for armor and equipment.
I would have liked to see more individuality in the armies, but this is a first edition with no miniature range of your own, so going basic is a good thing. I'm sure I can help you a little bit to tease out the army details and background a bit more, and to develop your own look and feel for the different armies themselves.
What I'd like to see special rules for the different armies, like some have unique movement strategies, or special attacks, formations, reactions etc. This will break up the predictability of knowing the units stats and modifiers, I will always know that X beats Y from the stat lines. There needs to be something to break up this predictability.
Hopefully in the second edition you can tighten up the armies, and get a better iconography and style for each race and flesh out the world a bit more. Generic is good to a point, at some point you need to start getting unique, but this maybe my own hangups, I only like to do stuff that's unique most of the time.
I have a lot of other ideas, notes and suggestions that I'll develop a bit more and send to you privately. With the use of paper figures, you should be able to really start developing new and unique armies and troop types, and not be at the mercy of what people can find to proxy the troops. JIM
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Post by nikloveland on Oct 19, 2010 4:44:17 GMT -9
Hey Jim, thanks for the feedback. We would like to get working on a second edition here soon but we are focusing on our paper minis for the time being. Don't let that stop you from making comments though!
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Post by enpeze on Oct 19, 2010 10:36:34 GMT -9
I didnt read the rulebook but I have some things to say (as always Some here said that there is a game system out there which is just bell and whistles and great production value without serious rule content. That I think is only partially true. Maybe Warhammer (lets call it by name) is not the best rule system, but it comes down what a player want. Its also about support and immersion in community. So if I want to have a perfect rule system maybe I would choose Hordes of the Things (or Bellicose) for Fantasy and Fields of Glory for historical. But if I want military novels, cool minis which are perfect suited for the dark humoresque world, alot of active gamers around the corner and inspiring artwork/painting work then there is no way around WH. So back to Bellicose. I guess I have to take a look at the game. The human faction looks very promising. I would not do a comic book cover. I would do a photorealistic cover where several regiments of Bellicose paper minis battling against each other (maybe upon a terrain consisting of paper or even 3D whatever is better looking). Thats because I guess the paper mini hobby is that what it is all about, so the onlooker can see this fact at the first glance. Such a cover would also direct focus on the unique selling point of Bellicose.
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Post by josedominguez on Oct 19, 2010 13:11:10 GMT -9
I'd agree with that..... the paper mini angle is the inique selling point after all. Custom, tailor made armies for pennies. No painting required! On a related note, the UK copies are ready to roll Arrived this morning in perfect condition. Having played the game now, the system works really well, but we had a snarl up over routing, that got to be a bit of a headache. Works in small games, but I think there needs to be a more abstract 'advanced rule' for massed battles, otherwise there's a lot of little units running about and cluttering things up (didn't work too well with our 15mm stuff). I love the mechanic of a morale dice per figure, but it got quite daunting. I think the armies in the book are a really good start, the next step would be to start grabbing some figures from the forum hoards...... great incentive for people wanting to draw a figure, it may become 'official'. Also things like Jim's cavern monsters, they are begging to be made into 'monstrous hosts' available as rare choices to each army. I'm also thinking the halloween packs could be made into a faction all of their own..... how about 'the coven' loads of cool stuff there. I'd love to work something like that up with my group. The rule book is really open to 'special rules' as the open structure of the armies will allow things to be slotted in easily without destroying balance.... rare choices are very restricted.
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Post by Sirrob01 on Oct 19, 2010 16:53:55 GMT -9
okay...I'm going to have to order a copy I can't take it anymore...I've added it to the top of the list of things to buy with my next pay...
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Post by onemonkeybeau on Oct 19, 2010 16:55:27 GMT -9
Yeah... me too. ;D
onemonkeybeau
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Post by nikloveland on Oct 19, 2010 19:30:37 GMT -9
Yeah, it seems that most of the comments we get about Bellicose have to do with the army lists. We originally designed (and still hope to keep) the system to be simple for new players. I also wanted each army to have somewhat of a distinct feel. Now that's not to say we can't add more armies/units. In fact if you have ideas we would love to hear them. I'm just more of an analytical mind rather than a creative one. I will have to create a 'design philosophy' document so that those who wish to contribute will know what we hope to achieve with the game. For example, we created the basic rules as simple as possible while pushing any complex variations into the units themselves. Therefore I'm hesitant to add too many exception rules to movement or combat (favoring instead to place that in the description of a unit). We're not quite ready to start work on a 2nd Edition. In fact it may be a ways off since I am still working on the website and paper minis (we all love paper minis right!) However I would love to see you make a list of suggestions as you come across them. I hope to set up a section on the new website where we can organize a discussion of Bellicose (maybe a wiki or something). Having played the game now, the system works really well, but we had a snarl up over routing, that got to be a bit of a headache. Works in small games, but I think there needs to be a more abstract 'advanced rule' for massed battles, otherwise there's a lot of little units running about and cluttering things up (didn't work too well with our 15mm stuff). I love the mechanic of a morale dice per figure, but it got quite daunting. Once a block of models has run from the unit, they will all together either continue to run or rally. We ran into that early on. Now some may still find that it strings out the unit. The easiest way to fix this is any model that flees twice in a row is automatically removed. This changes the dynamic a bit as some units use fleeing as a strategy to 'tie up' a particularly powerful unit but you could still use this as a house rule. I Some here said that there is a game system out there which is just bell and whistles and great production value without serious rule content. That I think is only partially true. Maybe Warhammer (lets call it by name) is not the best rule system, but it comes down what a player want. Its also about support and immersion in community. I totally agree. Games Workshop (uh oh, the lawyers on there way now) is an amazing game company. The same could be said of Privateer Press. They both have completely immersive environments for their games. But it's not what I go for. I do love to see their products but at the end of the day I want to play more than just one game and I don't have the time/money to invest in that much of their environment. I don't want to start any flame wars. I am just saying they have their market segment and I think there are also other segments of the market to be had. The people on these forums are more the 'do it yourself' type of gamers and that fits perfectly with Bellicose Fantasy Battles. I would do a photorealistic cover where several regiments of Bellicose paper minis battling against each other (maybe upon a terrain consisting of paper or even 3D whatever is better looking). Thats because I guess the paper mini hobby is that what it is all about, so the onlooker can see this fact at the first glance. Such a cover would also direct focus on the unique selling point of Bellicose. Thanks for the tips. We are most certainly going change the pictures on the back of the book to use paper minis (whereas now it shows traditional figures). As others have said, this is our strength. No other game is so heavily tied to paper minis (or at least I haven't heard of it). Thanks for the comments and I look forward to more! P.S. It's late and I didn't really read over what I've typed. If I've said something stupid or crazy then let me know and I'll fix it.
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Post by josedominguez on Oct 20, 2010 11:25:01 GMT -9
I'm starting on the 'Coven' army using all of the halloween stuff available here I'll even stick my plague cart in there somewhere. I like the adaptability of the system As for the routing rules: would an option be to remove models as they route and simply place them behind the main unit rather than having them start to move away as that got confusing. rallying could be made for each man.... all passes rejoin the unit, all fails are removed? You could even represent that with a counter/dice to show how many are routing (I use magnetic movement trays, taking models off the back of a unit is a pain!).
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Post by labrat on Oct 21, 2010 2:27:05 GMT -9
I am loving all the feedback! Keep it coming. We totally need this sort of thing to really develop a solid game. That's something that bigger companies have as an advantage is tons of people playing their games and offering feedback.
Think of this edition of Bellicose as a sort of skeleton for playtesting. With the help of so many experienced gamers the next edition could be something to really marvel at. We have hoped to avoid too many edition changes, as this is one of the things that put us off other games was having to replace everything once a new edition was released. Hopefully with Bellicose the only thing you will ever need to replace is a single book, and hopefully that only once. It is clear that some changes definitely have to be made for the success and atmosphere of the game. Since Nik and I are a little tied up at the moment, your feedback and playtesting are priceless to us.
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Post by Parduz on Oct 21, 2010 3:00:10 GMT -9
Question: do the game provide scenarios? I own SoBH and various fantasy "expansions", and i like it 'cause it's simple and fast. But the one thing that i'm missing are scenarios. Sure, you may build an army by points, but then? How about the battlefield? i'm not an expert wargamer, and so i tend to build equivalent armies and put them in an almost symmetrical terrain. I'd like to build a sort of "story" (it is not really a campaign) built in this way: 1) a village is attacked by the evils scouts (orks, undeads, what you want). If the villagers wins go to 2a), otherwise go to 2b), 2a) the lord army counterattack the evil army in a open field. if the goods wins go to 3a) otherwise go to 3b) 2b) The good army tries to regain the village. if the good wins go to 3a), otherwise go to 3b) 3a) the good army attacks the evil stronghold if the good wins.... the good wins!! Otherwise....dunno 3b) The evil hordes attacks the good lord's castle. If the evil wins.... the evil wins!!!! Otherwise go to 2a) well, you got it. Now: how can i balance the evil army against the good defending the castle? How much point the evils should have more than the goods? This is the kind of thing i can't guess. So, do your game provide a way to build a scenario like "defend the castle", or a way to evaluate the terrain in the battelfield to help to keep things balanced?
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Post by Sirrob01 on Oct 22, 2010 16:50:32 GMT -9
I haven't read the bellicose rules but normally in wargamming if your attacking a well defended castle etc the attacker will need x2 the points of the defender. This does assume: ~ The defender is getting cover bonus's from the walls, ~ the attacker has to charge across an open field, or a field with little cover ~ the attacker needs heavy ordnance catapults etc to bring the walls down, so they can even get into the fortification and take it over. ~ the defender takes mostly archers/crossbows not say all heavy cavalry...
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Post by nikloveland on Oct 23, 2010 4:56:08 GMT -9
Yeah, I like those ideas Parduz. Bellicose currently does have three campaign styles (increasing in difficulty) to string battles together but they are not as directed as you suggest. It would be fun to create a scenario module for Bellicose with a specific storyline for each battle and it's outcome.
Bellicose doesn't have any specific siege rules as they were written to have large units rather than the skirmish styles needed when fighting in building. But that doesn't mean it would be hard to add either (increase Parry a little here, more Damage Resistance there...). Any building rules are actually defined before the battle begins for each scenery piece (but the easiest is just to disallow movement/fighting inside buildings).
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Post by Sirrob01 on Oct 29, 2010 12:56:26 GMT -9
Copy ordered, I'll let you know how the postal service treats it in transit. You might need to look at the shipping cost to downunder Nik it looked way to reasonable to me .
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Post by nikloveland on Oct 29, 2010 18:12:06 GMT -9
Yeah, we're still doin' that free shipping thing I promised. But since you are soo far away I changed it to 1/2 cost. Now that might not be exactly correct but it is close when shipping to the UK. We'll see how it is to Australia.
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Post by josedominguez on Oct 30, 2010 1:28:50 GMT -9
Nice big pile of UK copies here..... ready for first class delivery
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Post by Sirrob01 on Nov 17, 2010 21:51:05 GMT -9
arrived safe and sound today, the envelope looked like it'd been run through some sort of orc postal service but Labrats excellent packing saw the book undamaged. The cover is definitely better in person, I suspected it was for print artwork rather than for screen display I have to ask why didn't you use the Bellicose name inside on the first page (the sword one) on the front cover. I'll admit it's a little tough to read but it's unique and cool looking . from the quick flip through I like the layout and font size, I'll have to start reading and try to play a game or two to give anything more detailed .
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Post by labrat on Nov 18, 2010 4:09:36 GMT -9
Sheesh! That took some time getting there didn't it. Well I'm glad it arrived safe and sound despite the rough handling. Nik ordered our packing supplies from a bulk supplier and I think we have enough to last til the next millennium. That little piece on the inside of the cover has a fun little story. Nik and I had just started picking up Bellicose again after forgetting about it for a couple of years. I was sitting through an incredibly boring chemistry lecture and started doodling on my power points and came up with that. For quite a while we used it, but because of several comments that people had a hard time reading what it was and because we had difficulty making it look good on the cover art, we just put it on the inside. I suppose you guys will want to see what we are talking about. I can't get the image to show up in my preview, I think the dropbox website is having issues.
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Post by kiladecus on Nov 18, 2010 5:06:55 GMT -9
OK! To sum up everything here... DOWNLOADING = Good ILLEGAL DOWNLOADING = Bad PDF FILES = Good VIDEO DEMONSTRATING = GOOD! BELLICOSE = Undecided BELLICOSE MINIATURES and SANITY STUDIOS... AWESOME!! I have read this whole thread (had to do something while building models for Saturday's game)... I have designed MANY games (nothing anyone would have EVER heard of... DON'T GO THERE...) Seriously, I think that if I were to release one of my games, the whole idea of having any figure from any game system/manufacturer seemed good at first, HOWEVER, that means that people buy your book, and OTHER people's miniatures... NOT good business. Having your exclusive figures could generate revenue, but ONLY if people buy your game. I'll be honest, I am CHEAP! Partially because I am that way, and mostly because the economy has forced me to be. I used to play "THAT ONE GAME" and spent, oh, I'd say $40,000.00 on it over time. I would buy, and get fed up, and sell my army just to be free of it, and then turn around and buy more. I found PAPERCRAFT, and I love that there are SO many items out there to collect. I just started getting into Dave Graffam's ships, which is AWESOME stuff, and I own MOST of Glenn William's stuff... Sorry... got side-tracked... I can't afford to keep buying stuff, only to be dissappointed in it. I only have about $30.00 a MONTH to spend on my hobbies, which is NOT a lot. I try to make sure I get every pennies' worth. I did download your "free sample" figures. I like that you have a lot of figures per page, but am not impressed thus far with the lack of poses... I would prefer to see 3-5 poses per figure (which I am sure is on the horizon). Perhaps that is why my FAVORITE figure you have is the "Choking Roots." There are two different "poses" and I twist mine and "bend" them to make them look 2.5D! [VERY NICE JOB ON THESE, BTW...] I have to say that since you are on-line, why not EXPLOIT that a little. You have big stories and fluff on your major races, but break it down a little... Why not have a picture of a Flesh Tub, and say what it does... I am NOT talking about listing stats and devulging information about it, but saying, "These little guys are the demons that were unearthed and follow the great Nik into furious battle. They have acid-based blood and explode on contact, and are allergic to garlic." I am just saying that sure, i downloaded these little "fat guys," as my kids call them, and they are cute... BUT if I knew what they did, it might make me a little more interested in buying the game. The "Bashers," same thing... the look on their face makes me think that they have a belching attack that makes someone nausious if they fail their roll... and they look strong, and since their names are "bashers" as opposed to "singers..." Ok, Eleves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Minotaurs, these are ALL things we (as players) know, and have an idea what they are... this "other" stuff is new, and most people don't like change, or what is new. My thought: INTRODUCE US TO THIS STUFF! Let us become familiar with it. I feel that if you let us know what is out there and what it can do, that is MORE important than offering "rules samples." YOU HAVE A FORUM! Why not do an introduction post. "THIS WEEK'S PROFILE IS..." I could see just having a picture of it and saying what it does... then again, not list all of the stats and game rules, that would distract from the book itself. If all of your stats were listed here, people wouldn't buy your book, I wouldn't think... Ok... stepping off my soapbox. Just wanting to share some thoughts... I hope it helps.
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Post by Sirrob01 on Nov 18, 2010 21:24:03 GMT -9
Labrat that's actually pretty good from the US near xmas time only 3 weekish . Yes the instant readability was about the only thing I spotted you couldn't space it a little and add a bar to the E or does it destroy the effect? I'm sure Nik And Labrat will chime in but the later sets have multi-poses ie Satyr's have 3 different poses for mace but then their is a left right version giving 6 total. It's like that all through fairypack 2. I will say there is a lot of heart in the Bellicose stuff, it may not be perfect but it reminds me a lot of Jims/Ganesha games stuff. Kiladecus like the profile comment/idea's.
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Post by Dominic on Nov 18, 2010 22:03:05 GMT -9
I think as far as readability is concerned the 'ico' part is worse then the Es, which I think work rather well. We've had a way worse logo back at school, don't remember for what exactly it was, but unless you know what it said you couldn't hope to decipher it at all.
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Post by enpeze on Nov 19, 2010 2:39:18 GMT -9
I love flesh tubs too. They are very sweet and (whats very important) easy to assemble.
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Post by labrat on Nov 19, 2010 5:01:07 GMT -9
Hey, I'm glad you guys are liking our stuff. I think it is true that the heart of the system is good, we just need to tweek some things, and perhaps work on some of the designs a bit, but that is all happening as we speak. I still want to hear a battle report from someone who has fought a battle. Nik and I are going to be fighting a small battle today. I will write up a battle report and post it maybe later on today. I will be fielding a 1000 point Orc army and Nik is going to be commanding a 1000 point Faerie army. We chose these armies so we could do some playtesting with the Giants of the Faerie army and the Ancient Ones from the orc army. We are going to see if giants and other large creatures should be harder to kill than they currently are. Sometimes they get killed before you get a chance to do much with them, which is not cool when you are expecting your giant to wreak havoc and be a bugger to bring down. We are also going to playtest some new psychology rules we've been working on. As it is now, battles can get quite chaotic with units running and rallying all over the board and it becomes cumbersome to keep track of. We have some good ideas to greatly simplify the rules and speed up the game significantly.
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Post by nikloveland on Nov 19, 2010 6:48:25 GMT -9
Man, that picture takes me back. It's in the front of the book but I don't usually turn there (just boring stuff like authors names and such). I think that was Aaron's first piece of art for this little project.
Kiladecus, you have some great ideas and thanks for such a long post. I do like the 'Profile of the week' idea. Maybe we can get someone on that (where's that 'Boffo the Sane' figure...) As with all good ideas they take time and right now my priority is getting Aaron's sets out the door with setting up a new website as second priority. We are having a 'Paper Mini' day so hopefully we can get some of that stuff done!
Our paper minis are getting more poses as we go along. The Horde Packs were our first try at it and we learned a lot. I'm cutting the Heavy Foot Soldiers as we speak and I think they look quite nice (good job Aaron).
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