NUDITY!!

[paladin]

Nov 29, 2010 18:46:12 GMT -9 nikloveland said:

That being said, if anyone does find erotic material on the forums, please report it and we (the moderators) will try to fix the situation. I think the forum members do a good job being judicious and I have not run across anything that I feel needs attention (and nor do I hope to).

I've discovered this dead horse thread yesterday. Quite explaining. I should have read it, before I invested some time to deliver a holovisual table dancer for the SciFi-civilian Monthly Hoard of February. Maybe I am the first contributor to this forum, who was ordered to delete his contribution. I did it immediately. As someone who was censored this way, I have the right to kick a sleeping dog, I think ... so.

My female human holo dancer was bikini/boots/lingerie-type dressed (a question of fashion). Her booty a bit exposed by her pose. No hard nipples. Her stomach shadowed by her arm.

Why did I paint her ? Well, as an artist it's always a skill test to paint the (HALF-)NAKED human form. And if it has to show some subtle gentleness/sweetness, then that's harder to achieve than you might think. It's much harder than drawing a rotten, gory body.

Some call sweetness "erotica" (which has a very long tradition in art, surviving all attacks of less free minded people, especially of Christian Church people, who had their own ways to deal with the "evil" of the human body - by self-flagellation or torturing/burning others, mostly females )). It's definitely not pornography, which exposes the human body in uncovered sexual action. And even in pornography there are many situations, which are qualifying as "erotica", kisses for example.

I think, in this sense, my holo dancer qualified as sweet "erotica". It was intended to be that - and more.

Second, there was a demand for spacebar decoration and background NPCs.

I had the concept of an unreachable, safe performer in my mind. A female, who works in the planetary holovisual entertainment industry, her data sold to customers, who on their own live in a very harsh male-dominated environment, maybe on a military or prison planet. That's why I put some blaster shot marks on the surface of the dancing table. It shows some psychological connection between male frustration/aggression/fighting/war and the missing of real gentleness/love. I think, that's realistic for a Dark Future setting. It's a projection of current trends into the future. And I like realistic SciFi (with a Stanislaw Lem/Traveller RPG-background).

Some people cannot stand realism. And I am the last, who would say, that children should see reality unfiltered. But as a grown-up I wonder, how some people want to filter reality instead of thinking about it. Of course, reality is painful. Always has been. That's why we are playing wargames and roleplay torturing Sith Lords to deal with our most painful, darkest corners of our souls and the dreadful collective memories of neverending wars and violence. We might think: "I just want to have fun in tabletop gaming", but on a deeper level we are acting out strong, archetypal, primal, sometimes spiritual (you clerics/priests/shamans out there !) emotions and thoughts, which might harm or heal us. This type of gaming is called Psychodrama in psychology. It's more powerful than you might think. That's why some roleplayers better stop or deal with their negative energies the gaming reveals. Like those torturing Sith Lords, Satrek mentioned.

Do you know Overlord of Game Design Greg Costikyan's brilliantly written, cynical RPG "Violence" (1999)? Google it, you might find a PDF-copy. It's his ironical view of a degraded, sick game industry born in a degraded, sick reality. If you ever want a definition of "gore", then just read the rules.

So, "gore" is fine, the forum rules say. "Erotic material" is not fine, you say, @nik. I would accept "porn is not fine", at least not here. But good old god Eros is banned ? Eros, the god of love, is the power behind all sensual AND sensible art. It's the lifeforce of art, you want to exclude from an artists' forum.

It's pretty sure for me, that people banning Eros, are also banning Succubi (dark side) and love affairs of Sith Lords (lighter side, though dark enough) from their games. It's the "no-sex-in-LOTR"-problem. Dry, unnatural game worlds with tons of flesh, rotten flesh of the dead.

I can imagine, that it was the declaration of my Holo dancer as a POLE DANCER, which disqualified her. That's a political issue, if pole dancers are performance artists or just stuff you aren't talking about. Which is sad, because for me, (good) pole dancers are performance artists.

I thought, it would be wise to exchange her for a more alien natural form ... and voila, no problem. That's the Lovecraftian, puritanical way of solving the "sin"-problem - more tentacles. They show up again in extremely filthy Japanese "alien/SciFi/Manga"-porn.

The circle is closed. Welcome to the world of game psychology.

[josedominguez]

I love this thread

Whenever the question of censorship comes up at work (I'm a teacher) I'll ask
'so when is it OK for a pupil to look at erotic pictures'
'16' they'll usually say
'Why?'
'Because that's the legal age of consent' They reply.

Oh, OK, so how come they can watch a throat being cut or a person being shot at 15? I wasn't even aware there was a legal age you were allowed to do that.

[paladin]

Dead horse alife again ;D.

Well, Jose. Those legal regulations of media allowance by age are different from country to country. Here in Germany it's 6/12/16/18/21/illegal. Decapacitation Decapitation of Uruk-Hai in LOTR no problem for officials: 12 years allowance. The cinemas need income, the towns taxes .

At what age of your students would you visit a masters/classic painters exhibition of your local art museum ? Let's say a Peter Paul Rubens special exhibition ?

[okumarts]

I think this is an important thread for any gaming/fantasy/scifi site. As an artist I was trained to draw using the human figure (read nude models). I couldn't draw the human figure properly until I studied anatomy and drew from live models. It's an artistic tradition and to be honest I don't even notice nudity in art anymore. Call me desensitized, but it just isn't a big deal to me. I've drawn hundreds of naked people.
I don't count go go dancers or midriffs as nudity. Nope. I don't.
If it is offensive to some, well, bring on the debate. Talking about our bodies and nudity is healthy.
Violence on the other hand, I do have a problem with. I draw zombies, I draw guys with swords and phasers and that sort of thing. My players beat up bad guys and kill orcs and that sort of thing, but it's also about understanding conflict and ultimately if my players do something violent or stupid in a game, there will be repercussions. THey might die in the fight, the characters might get chased, arrested, whatever... There is always some price to pay with violence in my games, even if it is the risk of losing in a wargame.
I would much sooner have my children exposed to nudity than violence.
Just my two bits thinking about this again.

[Vermin King]

My feeling is that if you really want to shake things up, just stir the Nudity Pot.

There is no right answer, and any limits, by nature, are somewhat arbitrary which makes the limits somewhat silly. I just realize that there needs to be a limit, and whatever that limit is, it will be deemed wrong by most people. Some will think it is too limiting, the others not limiting enough.

Whatever Nick decides is just as right as anything I decide, so I'm not going to get sucked into the discussion any more than I already have.

[cowboyleland]

I'm a case in point about arbitrary. I don't think I have a problem with nudity, but I thought the pole dancer crossed a line of objectification. It's all in the eye of the beholder and VK is right, Nik's gut is going to make as much sense as mine.

[paladin]

Mar 9, 2011 12:49:02 GMT -9 okumarts said:

I don't count go go dancers or midriffs as nudity. Nope. I don't. If it is offensive to some, well, bring on the debate. Talking about our bodies and nudity is healthy.
Violence on the other hand, I do have a problem with.

My words, okumarts. I should also say: Talking about our violence is healthy.

Vermin King, I stir the Nudity Pot, because my artwork was censored. And not because of "nudity", but because of "sexually suggestive" material. I think, the only material which qualified as sexually suggestive was the imagination and association of the censor himself.

I've sent my holo dancer to you by your request, verminking. Do you want dancing girls and zombie-killing nurses only on secret channels !?

Call me too sensible, but I don't like to be censored.

And I think, that you got the point, that there are very close relationships between hardcore porn, splatter, gore and overall excessive violence. It's the dark side of our "hobby", let's face it.

Nothing of that was shown by my holo dancer.

[Parduz]

My two cents:
1) i can't say better what Verminking said:
There is no right answer, and any limits, by nature, are somewhat arbitrary which makes the limits somewhat silly. I just realize that there needs to be a limit, and whatever that limit is, it will be deemed wrong by most people. Some will think it is too limiting, the others not limiting enough.

2) Each of us have his own envision of what needs to be censored, what needs to be "explained" (i'm thinking about what youngs can or cannot see). From what i'm reading here, no one is wrong, and all are right. ..... writing and deleting a lot ... to be able to explain myself, i have to go with an analogy, which requires simple words than the main argument: when you go at a party, you usually use "apropriate" dressing. Whatever you put on your body does not change a bit of what and who you are. But if you don't want to upset the host you "have" to adhere to his "dressing code", 'cause the hos wants his party in that way.

Now, the "dressing" code here is what we know it is. It can happens that we may not like it, or we may not just agree even with the need of this "dressing code", and this does not make us wrong, right, or anything else. But our host said what he'd like: if we stay here, why not accept it? we can even walk in shorts at home, or just do a pigiama party somewhere else.

I hope you can understand me, as i'm really not judging anything or anyone.

[Vermin King]

I have to fall into the 'Everybody is Right, because Who is to say what is Wrong' camp. I am also one that will accept things on a humor level. There are some really awful movies out there that I enjoy because they are quite funny, if you ignore the poor acting, lousy effects and terrible plot. Anyone seen Bubba Hotep?

I think the Holo Dancer is something that would be found in a Sci Fi universe. I think it would really get a lot of 'What the...' responses in a game to break through a bulkhead and find a room that contains only the Holo Dancer. I imagine that a sci fi bar would have one in every corner and a featured Holo in the center of the room.

Nick removed it, which is his right, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be available anywhere. I think it is very creative. I never thought of it. I think it fits a futuristic theme. Once I saw it, my first thought was 'What mining colony in the asteroid belt wouldn't have this?' I frankly don't think it is all that much of an issue. But I don't have the reputation of my forum at stake.

[paladin]

Mar 9, 2011 15:13:05 GMT -9 Vermin King said:

I am also one that will accept things on a humor level. There are some really awful movies out there that I enjoy because they are quite funny, if you ignore the poor acting, lousy effects and terrible plot. Anyone seen Bubba Hotep?

I think the Holo Dancer is something that would be found in a Sci Fi universe. I think it would really get a lot of 'What the...' responses in a game to break through a bulkhead and find a room that contains only the Holo Dancer. I imagine that a sci fi bar would have one in every corner and a featured Holo in the center of the room.

Nick removed it, which is his right, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be available anywhere. I think it is very creative. I never thought of it. I think it fits a futuristic theme. Once I saw it, my first thought was 'What mining colony in the asteroid belt wouldn't have this?' I frankly don't think it is all that much of an issue. But I don't have the reputation of my forum at stake.

"Bubba Hotep" !? Mummy Splatter ? Don't get me wrong, guys, I know the temptations of cruelty, horror and porn, I know my dark fantasies very well, and I've talked about the violence-problem in gaming not excluding myself. So, no holiness for me. I only wanted to hint at the endlessly discussed ethical double-standard of erotica versus gore.

Vermin King, well, THAT rest of your text makes me HAPPY . That's all I want. Being accepted as a contributor to further storytelling. I am feeling MUCH better now.

I agree with you, verminking, cowboyleland and parduz, that my holo dancer caused very subjective emotions and opinions. That's why okumarts and me are irritated by the reaction of Nik, cause we seem to live in a very different visual/political/ethical cosmos.

I've tested the forum rules with previews of my artwork. There was no intervention, just encouragement. So I've finished my work, which was rejected. What should I say ?

But with the story-scenes of verminking ... everything is forgotten ;D.

Nik is the boss, no doubt about that. But you, parduz and cowboy, should also say, what YOU want. Don't hide behind Nik's power of rule enforcement.

[paladin]

;D Vermin King, there is one "bubbahotep" as forum member, who has birthday today ! Watched the YouTube-trailer. OK, that's what American cinema is very good at: self-reflecting irony .

[Parduz]

Mar 9, 2011 15:55:03 GMT -9 paladin said:

But you, parduz and cowboy, should also say, what YOU want. Don't hide behind Nik's power of rule enforcement.

Dunno if this is a common say there, in which case i apologize for the following line.

I'm not hiding behind nothing.
I said my point of view about how i think we have to see Nik decision. And not because he's "the boss", but because we are guests. The difference is perhaps subtle, but it is important. And, just to be fair, the hoard rules was set by Jim, which i see as "the master" (i really lack for right english words, so everyone, and Nik, pls take this with some flexibility). I did'nt discuss about your figure because it does'nt matter, for me, when we talk about Nik's decision. He felt that it was not appropriate to the style he wants for the forum, and that's enough, for me.
If i was hiding i was silent.

Now, about your figure: I liked it, it was original, well done and very useful in any cyberpunk/dark and dirty future setting.
Also, that dancer did'nt click any erotic on me. My idea of what is sexy is becoming aged, 'cause i built it (and basically match) what we've seen on Playboy in late '80 and early '90, before all that pumped plastic dolls with absurd high shoes. But it was "dirty" enough (i mean, it was suggesting a dirty setting) that i feel a bit surprised to have seen it in the hoard. And this is just MY feeling, and not a judgement in any way.

[Vermin King]

And, I have to agree with that, too. We are guests here. It is Nick's house, so we abide by his rules. His decision. Nick was busy getting ready for SaltCon and working on the new website, so his silence during the WiP stage doesn't surprise me. He has a lot on his plate. Or he may have seen it and decided to give it more thought. I don't know. I wouldn't hold it against Nick.

We do have a better idea now of what is acceptable and what isn't. So we work in the parameters that are set for the forum.

That isn't to say that it isn't cool and useful. But we are guests in Nick's house.

[revgunn]

Well... Paladin I know I encouraged you. I love your work. I liked the Holodancer lots, and I grabbed it as soon as I saw it up, cuz I knew it wasn't gonna last long.

So, never ask me. I'm a degenerate. My work is the reason this thread even exists. I kinda feel good about that honestly.

Its their sandbox, so we gotta build our sandcastles by their rules.

In the future, when I draw something people might be offended by, I'll tell people to PM me for a link to it.

I find Chaos(tm) Beastmen(tm) offensive as h**l. So I'm thrilled to draw them. There WILL be some offensive mini's. Count on it.

Art is supposed to shake people a little. Make the viewer feel something. You succeeded, so feel good about that. I respect the people and the artists here, so I do it their way. I hope you do as well, cuz I want access to your work.

[cowboyleland]

Got to respond with a little clarification. I didn't like the holodancer, rubbed me the wrong way somehow and I don't know why. BUT I did not ask for it to be taken down. I just would never down load it and if one of my kids was looking over my shoulder when I happened to scroll by it we might end up talking about censorship and objectification etc. I have no problem. But Nik has decided to enforce Jim's old rules (rules which I find strange: violence good/sex bad) and that shouldn't be surprising. It is unfortunate that something wasn't said during the WiP to spare you the work. How about a deviantArt page for our more twisted work?

[revgunn]

Well, you can't have anything too twisted on Deviant Art either. They made everyone take down the "adult" content.

I could be wrong, but I went there chasing a link and found the stuff I was looking for gone. I think the Holo-Dancer would be ok there.

I figured I'd just host my more "deviant" stuff myself, til my dropbox gets full. I live in the Buckle of the Bible Belt here in Oklahoma. I'm pretty used to the whole sex=bad violence=good thing. Strangely, I'm Christian, I attend church and everything. Weird right?

[MemeLordJerry]

Holo Dancer can be found where?

[cowboyleland]

I don't think that's weird. I think creation (sex) is more Christian than violence. I gave up on church when my congregation decided against gay marriage. Just couldn't sit peacefully in the pews anymore. And I'm to lazy to make the bus trip to a more liberal congregation. Sad, eh?

[revgunn]

Gay folks have the right to be just as miserable as the rest of us man...

Nah, its not sad. We all gotta do what we gotta do.

Message me and I'll shoot ya a link to it, stephengroy

[hackbarth]

AFAIK Deviant Art host almost anything. You must be logged (and promised you are above age of consent) to access the more adult artwork.

I'm still of the opinion that revgunn and Paladin should make available their artwork, no matter how objectionable someone may think it is. But I have to agree that this is Nick house and he has the right to ask for any art that he object to be removed, for any reason or no reason at all. Up until now he has been very honest and reachable about his reasons and while I may not have the same views, I agree with the rules. I just wish that theses minis (not just the holodancer but also the NSFW minis that revgunn alluded to before) could had a place of their own.

[cowboyleland]

Colour my naive, what is NSFW?

[sammo]

Not Safe For Work

[nikloveland]

Jan 3, 2011 4:41:21 GMT -9 josedominguez said:

I check every website I use in class before accessing it, this is one of the few 'art' websites that is safe, then again, I had to stop using it a few weeks back when an adult dating site (complete with photos) started advertising on the top banner.

I don't see the banner ads since I use Firefox with Adblock Plus (which is probably against ProBoards TOS) but I'm truly sorry about that. One more reason why I eventually want to move the forum (with all these lovely posts) over to the main One Monk website.

Mar 9, 2011 10:16:05 GMT -9 paladin said:

I should have read it, before I invested some time to deliver a holovisual table dancer for the SciFi-civilian Monthly Hoard of February.

I'm sorry that's my fault. I am sometimes focused on my projects so I didn't see it. I hope you don't feel it was a waste of time because it's not in the Forum HOARD. There are many ways to still share your work (4chan being another in addition to deviantArt which I mentioned already). On the topic, I think it would be good to to clarify that HOARD submissions are a bit more strict because I am putting them up on my website and promoting it.

[paladin]

Thanks for the clear statements, boys ... . First I want to say: when I asked for (secret) wishes and ideas of appropriateness, I was less interested in the effects of my Holo Dancer (though feedback makes me always happy ;D), but in your general stance to this whole dilemma of porn/noporn/gore/nogore etc. But of course, you write about my mini, so I can hear your voices ...

Parduz, you're right in saying, that Nik just follows Jim's footsteps in regard to forum rules. I remember having read, that it was a condition of Jim's sale contract to not change the forum rules. But as we all have agreed upon, that "sexually suggestive" is a very subjective thing, so the forum rules need more definition. It's very disappointing for artists like me to find out the limit by try-and-error.
I think, it's Nik's turn to clarify the rule-set and to clarify HIS stance, so that others could understand his decisions. Otherwise there will be no communication here on a public forum, which was intended by Jim as a COMMUNITY of desperados and frontier artists, exploring difficult and unknown terrain.

You wrote: "He [Nik] felt that it was not appropriate to the style he wants for the forum."

Wait, are you talking about ART style, or THEMATIC style !? If it's the "grunginess/grittiness/darkness" of my SciFi-realism, that upsets Nik, then I got the function of "Cardboard Warriors" totally wrong. Then it's not a field of exploration and exchange, but a streamlined venture. This will not work in the long run. There is no party without guests. And actually I don't feel like a guest, when I post something here. I feel like a contributor. I wanna feel like that.

Now, parduz, what you write about my mini, makes me seriously happy , because I count alot on your sharp (comic-trained) eyes. Don't you think, Holo Girl's spine was broken . I wanted to work in your's and Satrek's favour and flattened her boots, but you cannot satisfy every fashion taste. So Eros is not Eros for everyone. That's why I've written, it's hard to do that stuff effectively. It's very subtle and subjective.

You wrote:"But it was "dirty" enough (i mean, it was suggesting a dirty setting) that i feel a bit surprised to have seen it in the hoard. And this is just MY feeling, and not a judgement in any way."

Ok. Maybe, I've lost my gut feeling, what is "dirty" and what is acceptable tame. Could be my fault. But I guess, you felt surprised, because you got used to the overall tameness, where revgunn is criticized for cowgirls' nipples. Come on !

revgunn, thanks. Maybe we have a very similar taste ;D.

You wrote: "I'm a degenerate. My work is the reason this thread even exists. I kinda feel good about that honestly."

No, you are not, or you don't know, what degeneration is. But you should feel good about your work and this thread. As okumarts pointed out, it's most important. It sets the frame, we as artists could work in - or not.

You wrote: "I find Chaos(tm) Beastmen(tm) offensive as h**l. So I'm thrilled to draw them. There WILL be some offensive mini's. Count on it. ...

Well, Beastmen are degenerated. But are they offensive !? Only in a fundamentalistic Christian point-of-view of no return. If you have ethical problems with Beastmen, then never draw Orcs, Goblins, Kobolds whatever. Never play D&D and all the rest. Free your mind, man, what are you talking about ? I feel the grip of 80ties anti-D&D-campaigning ("Don't talk to this brain-washing Dungeon Mistress (sic !). Only Jesus will save you !") on your brains ... .

You wrote: "Art is supposed to shake people a little. Make the viewer feel something. You succeeded, so feel good about that. I respect the people and the artists here, so I do it their way."

Yes, without a little bit of shakin' & feelin', it's no art at all. I think every artist here would have a hard time to copy styles and tastes of others. That's self-castration - and not the purpose of art. You should do it on your own way, or you will loose the gift of art. Respect for others should not be contrary to your expression as an artist.

cowboyleland, you wrote: "I didn't like the holodancer, rubbed me the wrong way somehow and I don't know why."

So you felt offended/annoyed/angry !? (My dictionary says that.)
Sorry for that. I understand, that there could be problems, if children are watching. But you liked my Lovecraftian version, right ?! ;D

Ok. Nuff of that. My main concern about this whole topic is, that I feel, that there are significant cultural/philosophical/theological/psychological differences. I am from Germany, home of a very strict puritanism in the PAST. But today !? There are alot documentaries and academic research about the whole violence/sex-imbalance of modern culture and media. It's not restricted to the US, but I think, the roots of puritanism are deeper in the US than elsewhere.

[revgunn]

I meant that the Beast guys were offensive and I wanted to draw them... Sometimes my humor doesn't come across here.... or I write badly, one of the two....

[paladin]

Mar 10, 2011 7:00:20 GMT -9 nikloveland said:

I hope you don't feel it was a waste of time because it's not in the Forum HOARD. ... On the topic, I think it would be good to to clarify that HOARD submissions are a bit more strict because I am putting them up on my website and promoting it.

Hi nikloveland !

No, I don't feel, it was a waste. It's still on my harddrive . But I wanted to submit something, so I was forced to rework it.

Ah, ok. Now THAT's something I get immediately ! I thought, Monthly Hoard would be a controllable all-inside thing for interested members and forum visitors. Thanks for your clarification, Nik ! If you say "more strict", then I understand, that my Holo Dancer crossed the line of appropriateness.

[paladin]

Mar 10, 2011 7:50:33 GMT -9 revgunn said:

I meant that the Beast guys were offensive and I wanted to draw them... Sometimes my humor doesn't come across here.... or I write badly, one of the two....

Ah, sorry ;D. Now I got it, I think. I am not an English native speaker, of course. You mean, it's a fact, that Beastmen are offensive as hell in the Bible Belt - and that's the reason for a lot of fun in drawing them explicitly !? Ok, that's the opposite of my blah,blah. revgunn, you are dangerous ! ;D

[revgunn]

Yes.. Now you got it.

[Parduz]

Mar 10, 2011 7:39:23 GMT -9 paladin said:

You wrote: "He [Nik] felt that it was not appropriate to the style he wants for the forum."

Wait, are you talking about ART style, or THEMATIC style !?

None of the above... i don't know how to explain.... i'll try again:
to me, the overall "look" of carboard warriors forum is very toward "light high fantasy". It is more closer to LoTR County than some Warhammer damned town (look at the whole Imperfect world... even cowgirls with nipples wasn't "dark")... it is more toward Star Trek TOS than Alien(s)... your pole dancer ('cause the theme, and the "dark" lines you used to draw the body, which reminded me a very "deviated" comic author from the '90... but i can't tell now who he was) was too much toward "the other styles". With the word "Style" i meant the overall atmosphere you can breath here.
My "dirty" related to your minis means more or less the same. It was related to what i'm used to see here, not an absolute "value".

Mar 10, 2011 7:39:23 GMT -9 paladin said:

Don't you think, Holo Girl's spine was broken .

Yes, there was something "not right" i did'nt tried too much to catch what it was 'cause the style was so different from anything else that i was wondering if it was a choice... and 'cause feeling it "dirty" i did want to be more "neutral" when looking at it. Then it disappeared.

[paladin]

Oh boy. Parduz, I think we understand each other perfectly. Did Nik say, that my "style" (in your sense) would not fit the forum !?

Nik and labrat gave me positive feedback, when I posted my Lich Cleric in January Hoard. Very different, no-line-art, painterly, high-detail style, also very dark and gritty. Like Warhammer meets D&D.

I think, the hair flow of my dancer does not follow her bend spine in a way it should. Beside that, she's not too bad (technically). It's typical B/W-ink-line-art with a monochrome color wash, though very detailed for her size. But as I work in 300dpi, you get alot detail even in 30 mm. Every pixel is printed, don't forget.

Actually I can work much grittier than this (you have not seen any zombies of mine yet, maybe, that's better ... ;D).

What about Tommygun's Manga- and MTV-style drawings/collage (of bobb and horror) !? They do not fit the Hartman/Sanity Studios-style at all. And Imperfect style is a whole different planet (which I personally like very much, cause of its childrens' book feel). No one can draw like okumarts can, by the way. Etc.

So, if Monthly Hoard is a promotion tool for Sanity Studios to further THEIR business (which I can understand, because they bought the page) in a distinct and only "style", then it's no place for me.