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Post by Vermin King on Mar 3, 2011 15:37:53 GMT -9
I know that Gwindel originally wanted the Brabantini Group to be a creative hot-bed of independent complete games and was disappointed that it pretty much became a group for figures.
It seems interesting to me that One Monk MINIATURES Forum is becoming a hot-bed for independent games.
I don't see why it can't be both. I think these games are very good for the community. I appreciate your efforts.
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Post by Parduz on Mar 3, 2011 15:54:07 GMT -9
So when you exhausted a mecenary that was at full health (ready), you just moved the coin down over its stats (swords, bows, shields, eyes)? That's a good idea, and I'll add that to the glossary as an optional way to indicate that a mercenary is exhausted. Yes, also when it is weary and exhausted. I'd like to include your name to my thank-yous and playtesters. How would you like your name to appear? (PM me or email if you don't want to post it here.) Thanks! Fabio 'Parduz' Calzolari (or whatever is the right way to mix real names and nicknames) is good. But follow your "style": if all the names in the credits are just real names, or just forum nicknames, use mine in the same way  Notes: You changed the rule to reveal the opposition, but the summary above still says that it is done by a D3. GRAPPLER the text on the card says "Wrestler" instead Questions: Opposition with "move" icon: do they move OVER mercs? "Lone" mercs (you can sum it up with just one word  : "not sharing his position" means that they will not move in a occupied position, that they prevent other mercs to move where "Lone" are, or both? Suggestions: Instead of paper and pancil, i'd go with a couple of card-sized "trays" (so they can stay in the same tuckbox) with a track to mark your gold and some place to mark when you extort or blackmail the prince. So the only object needed will be coins. |
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Post by Dave on Mar 3, 2011 16:31:39 GMT -9
You changed the rule to reveal the opposition, but the summary above still says that it is done by a D3. GRAPPLER the text on the card says "Wrestler" instead Fixed. Opposition with "move" icon: do they move OVER mercs? Yes. I would say "moving past" or "moving around" the mercenaries. Yeah, I think I'll use a "Loner" keyword for these characters instead. Good idea. The keyword will probably read like this: If a loner shares a position with any other mercenary, the loner may only take a move action. Loners won’t assist mercenaries that share their position. I think that's a much simpler way to deal with it. Loners just pout and kick the dirt if anybody tries to steal their thunder, and wander off somewhere else where they can be the center of attention. I like that idea. The game design contest only allows 6 cardstock sheets for components, and a 10 page rulebook, so I've run out of room. Once the contest is finished, I'll have a lot more freedom in how I go about designing the game. |
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Post by Dave on Mar 3, 2011 18:25:40 GMT -9
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Post by Dave on Mar 3, 2011 19:55:43 GMT -9
Game design threads are boring without some pictures. So here's one.  |
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Post by Dave on Mar 3, 2011 21:32:41 GMT -9
I'm playtesting now with the latest rules set.
1st Contract: The start of my career has been rough. I drew Trade War for my first contract, and hired Kirzash and Pazel for it. I seemed to be doing okay, but things quickly got out of control. Kirzash flubbed all three of her chances for an extra shot, and ended up being swarmed by five opponents. Pazel had a chance to flee, and left Kirzash to certain doom.
After one contract, I've got a dead freelancer and no money. Maybe I'll have better luck on the next one.
2nd Contract: I draw the Besieged Village contract, and hired Tiris and Pazel. I lost only 1 of the 4 crops to the bandits, so I earned 6 gold. Let's keep this good vibe going.
3rd Contract: This time I draw the Pilgrimage, and hired Pazel and Tiris. While escorting a group of pilgrims through slaver territory, we get attacked. Right away, an enemy Reinforcements card is drawn, and then more Reinforcements. Suddenly we've got 5 opposition cards to deal with on the first turn. We were quickly overrun, and all of our pilgrims are captured. We didn't make anything on the job, but at least we didn't lose any of our mercenaries. (Sorry, pilgrims.)
4th Contract: I drew Crossing the Bridge, and again I employed Pazel and Tiris. This was a nailbiter! I only had to survive for 4 rounds to win, but the opposition got nasty right away. Reinforcements arrived on turn 3 and I figured my mercenaries were toast. On turn 4, Tiris gave her life defending the caravans crossing the bridge. Pazel escaped, but there was a tear in his eye.
The goods news is that I succeeded at this contract, and I collected 6 more gold, and I can move to any other settlement. I'm running out of mercenaries to hire in the Village, so this is a good thing. After this contract, I hire Pazel into my stable permanently, and I relocate to the Town. I have 2 gold remaining.
5th Contract: This time, the contract is Raising Taxes. My mercenaries are robbing a tax-collector's caravan to make some quick cash. With my budget, I hired Gaddis and trained in the Distraction tactic. I brought along Pazel from my stable at no extra cost. So we have the opportunity to steal up to 2 chests of gold from the caravan, and then flee with the goods.
That's exactly what we did, but it took every last ounce of my mercenaries' energy, and it wouldn't have been possible without the Distraction tactic. A quick but scary way to make 4 gold.
6th Contract: The contract is Night Watch. I hired Gaddis and the tactic Juice of Joraa (a stimulant). Pazel is on this job, of course. The Juice of Joraa can only be used by a freelancer, so Gaddis gets the benefit of a free action each round. This one didn't go well. (I even doubled the number of Crates that are supposed to be there, and it still wasn't enough.) We didn't lose anything, but we didn't win anything, either.
Yeesh: I've been forgetting to apply the special rules for taking different types of contracts. I'll have to start all over.
This was still a pretty good test run, and I'll make a few refinements to the contracts I took.
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cabo
Apprentice
Posts: 39
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Post by cabo on Mar 4, 2011 8:34:01 GMT -9
Just a quick question (just for context this is all new to me so I bring a large dose of lack of understanding to this exercise) I think I have the basics understood so I have drawn Contract: Caves of Dimors, visible opposition Grappler (N) and mercenaries Pazel (NW) and Nizar (NE). All on first move so everyone is Ready. When Pazel uses Alertness to effect exhausted on Grapple. So now the question is if Niazr attacks with Melee is Grappler killed due to the exhausted state?
Also just for confirmation when I drew Caves of Dimora, I have 20 gold to secure two mercenaries, and there are 5 opposition in the N, and one in the east and one in the west, There are four caves to clear out...right?
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Post by Dave on Mar 4, 2011 9:12:23 GMT -9
So now the question is if Niazr attacks with Melee is Grappler killed due to the exhausted state? This is covered by the "double exhaustion" rule. If you attack an exhausted defender, treat it like any other attack. If your attack results in the exhausted defender becoming exhausted again, then it deals 1 damage instead. 1 damage is enough to defeat an opposition card. You said Nizar was ready, so he has his full Melee 3 ranking. The Grappler has a Melee of 3, so it is "equal to." The attack results in exhaustion for the defender (and Nizar), making the Grappler "double exhausted." So he's dead! That's right. |
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Post by Dave on Mar 4, 2011 9:18:47 GMT -9
I should probably mention that the game is supposed to be tough, but winnable in the long run. You should fail at some contracts, and you should lose a mercenary or two along the way unless you're very good or lucky.
Even with some failures along the way, you should still be able to run a full career. That's my hope, anyway.
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Post by Parduz on Mar 4, 2011 11:43:28 GMT -9
When you become a member of the guild, return any completed Trader contracts to your sources... Reshuffling the deck?
2. Reveal the Opposition
So the dice is gone here.... but how much opposition should i reveal for the other type od contracts?
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Post by Dave on Mar 4, 2011 12:10:27 GMT -9
When you become a member of the guild, return any completed Trader contracts to your sources... Reshuffling the deck? Yes. I'll change this to: Trader: After successfully competing a Trader contract, you may pay 4 gold to join the trading guild. When you become a member of the guild, shuffle any completed Trader contracts to your sources instead of removing them from play. This includes Trader contracts you have already completed, and any Trader contracts you complete from now on. This is mentioned in the full description for step 2, but I will add it to the summary list for convenience. For Versus (VS) contracts, draw M+1 opposition cards each round. For Defender (D) contracts, draw M opposition cards. |
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Post by Dave on Mar 4, 2011 13:36:00 GMT -9
Watch out, more changes are coming.
Ready is now clearly defined as the opposite of Exhausted.
Healthy is now the optimal status for mercenaries. This means they are not weary or injured. (It used to say Ready-Weary-Injured.)
I'm taking one eye off of the Backstabber.
I've rewritten the Tactics so they're clearer, and changed the way a couple of Tactics work. And Rigged to Explode now costs 10 gold instead of 20.
I'm tweaking some of the contracts as I play them, usually adding or removing from the number of opposition cards, or adjusting the number of "things" the mercenaries or opposition are trying to accomplish.
The changes aren't significant enough (yet) to need a new set of cards, but I'm sure that's only a matter of time. I need to switch to a different-colored correction pen while I go ahead with the next round of playtests.
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Post by Parduz on Mar 4, 2011 13:45:03 GMT -9
When you become a member of the guild, return any completed Trader contracts to your sources... Reshuffling the deck? Yes. I'll change this to: Trader: After successfully competing a Trader contract, you may pay 4 gold to join the trading guild. When you become a member of the guild, shuffle any completed Trader contracts to your sources instead of removing them from play. This includes Trader contracts you have already completed, and any Trader contracts you complete from now on. This is mentioned in the full description for step 2, but I will add it to the summary list for convenience. For Versus (VS) contracts, draw M+1 opposition cards each round. For Defender (D) contracts, draw M opposition cards. Sorry, forgot that the "VS" was in that "cross" in the contract card.... which, after another play, leads me to my final suggestions about your game: Repetita Juvant I understand that you're in a shortage of room to write anything, but i feel the need to have the same concepts repeated over and over..... this 'cause your game have very original mechanics and so almost nothing of what the player do was made before. More, i find annoying reading the cards AND the manual (i mean: i'm used to other card games where mechanics are often very simple, and the cards contains every info you need). So i'd write the rules i should remember on the cards (example: rurals contracts requires to roll a die.... i forgot this rule... a die icon, or a brief description in the card text help to remember this)... If your game is not played everytime, a causual play after a couple of months could be easier to do with all the infos on the cards. Also in the manual, other than on its own chapter, i'd repeat a rule more times, where that rule is mentioned. This makes the manual longer and writing it a bit more difficult, but it will helps the reader in sticking the rules in the head. Now, i don't want to be misunderstood. While i'm not a fan of solo gaming, your game makes me thinking at what i'm doing, which means that i was actually gaming instead of testing rules. I like your game. It is original, it have decisions, it have variety, it works well. So all what i'm saying is what i'd like to have it "perfect". A thing i don't like is "Observing".... i can't imagine any actions that (thematically) can achieve that results. I'd call it "sneaking", "assassination", "Corruction", "Politics" or "Diplomacy"... these are all action that are dirty and can "slow" opponents actions. Observing did'nt have any sense, to me. My compliments for a well designed and clever game. |
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Post by Parduz on Mar 4, 2011 13:47:30 GMT -9
I need to switch to a different-colored correction pen while I go ahead with the next round of playtests. I remember to have seen PDFs with line higlighted like if it was done by a fluo marker.... i think it was an Acrobat feature. |
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Post by Dave on Mar 4, 2011 14:38:51 GMT -9
I understand that you're in a shortage of room to write anything, but i feel the need to have the same concepts repeated over and over..... I'd prefer to have almost everything on the cards, but it's probably impossible to accomplish with a game this complex. I think a "quick reference" sheet would help. If I wasn't so restricted by the game contest rules, I would use larger cards for the contracts, and include the additional information. But I think, no matter what I do, some rules will still have to be found only in the rulebook. But I agree with you -- put as much as possible on the cards. That would also be my preference. However, I'm limited to a 10 page rulebook for the game contest, so I'm trying to use the Glossary as the place to repeat those rules. Here's how I'll describe "observation" in the rulebook: Your mercenary may attempt to observe and neutralize one opposition card in a neighboring zone, preventing them from sneaking behind your back or landing a blow. If you’re alert enough, you can see exactly what your opponent is trying to accomplish, and you won’t fall for it.Does that make more sense? |
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Post by Parduz on Mar 4, 2011 15:05:18 GMT -9
Your mercenary may attempt to observe and neutralize one opposition card in a neighboring zone, preventing them from sneaking behind your back or landing a blow. If you’re alert enough, you can see exactly what your opponent is trying to accomplish, and you won’t fall for it.Does that make more sense? I read it... pls note that i'm arguing only about the theme... the mechanic works and i've nothing to complain about it. In my head, that description should lead to a bonus for me (as i know what the oppont is about to do), not to the opponent being exahusted (as if it were "stopped" or counter-attacked)... that's why i don't like the word "observing". As i said, i'd like better another word implying a "non phisical damage" or "a way to make it loose the Step" ... dunno how to explain... if the theme were modern warfare that effect could have been a flashbang.... in sci-fi maybe ECM disturbing communications (so confusion about the orders)... in fantasy it could have been a "block person" spell. In this case it should be somewhat "sneaky" and dirt... throw sand in the eyes, spikes on the terrain, a puff of smoke... or an intimidating gesture... nothing that really hurts but that stop "movement". Hope you can understand me. |
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Post by Dave on Mar 4, 2011 15:12:57 GMT -9
Yeah, you're right. It does make more sense if it means "fighting dirty."
How about Feint instead of Observe?
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Post by Parduz on Mar 4, 2011 15:29:55 GMT -9
Sure it is better. I can't remember what PC game had that abilty, but there was a "dirty fight" which basically allowed yu to be able to "kick balls"... or somewhat related to "tavern brawl" or urban street survival.... Running out of ideas here |
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Post by Dave on Mar 4, 2011 16:15:45 GMT -9
More revisions:
I'm adding Revenge contracts to the Town.
No more 'D' or 'VS' contracts. I'll call these by name -- Protector (instead of Defender) or Versus. This keyword will appear at the start of each contract's description.
The circle inside of the four-way directional arrows will no longer contain a 'D' or 'VS.' Instead, this circle will tell you how many opposition cards to reveal each turn. These will use codes such as "M" and "+1" like we have seen elsewhere.
I've just gone through the contract cards and updated them with new "reveal opposition" numbers.
Playtest version 1.3 is coming soon. I'm setting up the cards now, which takes about a half hour. Then I'll print out a new set and start a new career. Hopefully things will go smoother this time.
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cabo
Apprentice
Posts: 39
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Post by cabo on Mar 5, 2011 7:09:26 GMT -9
OK I have been through a few games and multiple failed starts and here are my general comments. The initial game is quite difficult to "win" so I would consider adding 10 gold to the first play so that one would be a bit more successful while learning the rules. I strongly agree that a "cheat card" with the steps would be very helpfull.... I actually made one for myself When I was initially (very first read through ) trying to identify card types it was not intuitively obvious which cards were which type. It is clear once you have been through it a few times but a picture would really have helped or a unique identifier on the card as to type. I also have a few formating things that would have made it clearer for me. The card placement diagram right before Running a Battle could be reformatted to put greater emphasis not on position names but the names of items that go into the positions. Card size could also be implied by box size.  The use of examples would have also helped me to understand some concepts such as movement. A simple Opposition character in the N position moves clockwise to the next position at the E. The change to the reinforcement card from face down to face up was a good modification (devastating but good) Now for a real nit pick, the Location card has one start on the right and move to the left. In English speaking countries we are conditioned to start from the left and move to the right (as in reading) Do not know that it is worth changing but just wanted to note it. I also have a question on Observation (or whatever it's new name will be) under Opposition Actions: Observation the last sentence refers to "continuously observed" what is this? Does it mean that the last mercenary action was to successfully observe this opposition character? |
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Post by Dave on Mar 5, 2011 8:06:09 GMT -9
The initial game is quite difficult to "win" so I would consider adding 10 gold to the first play so that one would be a bit more successful while learning the rules. I've added the option of starting with 10 to 40 gold if you want to play a faster game. I still recommend starting with 0 gold. I think players will better appreciate their successes if they have first tasted defeat. As I get closer to a design that works, I'll create a quick-reference sheet or card. Right now the rules are in flux and it would be a headache to keep a quick-reference sheet updated. I left these out of the playtest rules because of the limited space, but I'll try to find room for a graphic showing the card types. I'm designing this card game to enter into a game contest, and the contest rules limit me to a 10 page rulebook. So part of the "test" of this playtest is seeing if it's still understandable with just a minimal amount of information and presentation. Once the test is over, I won't have the space limitations, and the rulebook should be much more user-friendly. I'll definitely use something like that. Much clearer. |
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Post by Parduz on Mar 5, 2011 8:08:39 GMT -9
When I was initially (very first read through ) trying to identify card types it was not intuitively obvious which cards were which type. It is clear once you have been through it a few times but a picture would really have helped or a unique identifier on the card as to type. I printed the cards on colored sheets (for some reason i have sort of "rainbow" ream of paper. So each kind of card had is own color. Now for a real nit pick, the Location card has one start on the right and move to the left. In English speaking countries we are conditioned to start from the left and move to the right (as in reading) Do not know that it is worth changing but just wanted to note it. I noticed this also, but i have not give it value... glad i'm not the only one I guess (hope?... no, i'd like ) that the "non limited version" could have a full region to explore, with more than one locations per type, routes that connect them and personalized mercs/missions/bonus to push the player in exploration |
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Post by Dave on Mar 5, 2011 9:11:30 GMT -9
I guess (hope?... no, i'd like ) that the "non limited version" could have a full region to explore, with more than one locations per type, routes that connect them and personalized mercs/missions/bonus to push the player in exploration I am totally into that idea. |
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cabo
Apprentice
Posts: 39
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Post by cabo on Mar 5, 2011 10:43:33 GMT -9
[quote author=dagobahdave board=dagobahdave thread=2700 post=28098 time=1299344769
]
I'd like to add your name to the playtesters. How would you like your name to appear? You can send me a private message or email (luminousbeings@yahoo.com) if you don't want to post it here. Cheers![/quote]
Wow.... my net name is Cabo and my mother given name is Carole Bohn.... use which ever works for you
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Post by Dave on Mar 5, 2011 21:31:54 GMT -9
I'm tweaking the opposition cards right now.
I've added an opposition card called the Hired Sword (yep, the game's namesake). When you draw this opposition card, it instructs you to place a random unused mercenary card in that zone. I think this is a fun way to expose the nature of mercenaries -- they will fight for anyone. This could even be a mercenary you've hired before! (To make room for this card, I removed the Grappler.)
I'm also taking a point of Armor away from a few opposition cards.
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Post by sharanac on Mar 5, 2011 23:59:43 GMT -9
While waiting for 1.3 here are writings for my last 1.2 campaign. 1. Precious cargo. I chose Pazel for his 4 eyes to increase my chances with job special rule, and Kirzah. Once Pazel eliminated first 3 opposition cards, rest was easy. Mission successful, move to town. 6 gold. 2. Rising taxes - rejected, payed 1 gold, job too difficult. 5 gold 3. Pit fight - from 3 mercs drawn I chose Ordan. With weapons cache and juice of Joraa tactics, he had no problems in the pit. Ordan to the stables, 5 gold. 4. Tower of Shom Ra Ordan started weary so I give him weapon cache tactics. Hired Arax. I managed to survive 6 rounds, heaving both mercs weary at the end. 8 gold earned, 13 total. Arax to stables, 3 gold left. 5. Night Wach. Ordan with weapon cache and Arax with juice of Joraa. Still lost 1 crate. 2 gold earned. Gold 5, payed 4 to enter the guild. 1 gold left. 6. Selected Hold that bridge to play next. Ordan with weapon cache and Arax with juice of Joraa survived 4 rounds. 6 gold earned. Moved to Village. Gold 7 7. Crossing the ford 0 budget, so just Arax and Ordan. Earned 4 gold. Moved to Town. Gold 11 To be continued...  |
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Post by Dave on Mar 6, 2011 0:21:45 GMT -9
sharanac, are you winning most of the jobs easily?
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Post by Parduz on Mar 6, 2011 0:44:40 GMT -9
If you want to keep it tough, i'll will change very little on opp. armor. I have always lost miserably  (i mean, i didn't win the game) but the hard fighting kept me insterested. Most opponents were just swept away (when they comes out in little numbers they have often no hope). They win when they're too much and i can't manage them all, or when some dirty combo (opponent + opp.buffer vs specific merc) comes out. A thing that i forgot to mention (if you find a spare row of text in the manual) is to specify that you (the player) are free to choose opponent tactics in the best way for you and the worst for them. The rules and the cards takes care of this, so you have not to "split-think" (as i do in my first play). |
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Post by sharanac on Mar 6, 2011 1:12:58 GMT -9
No, I would say that version 1.2 is perfectly balanced, unlike 1.1 that WAS too easy. Now I often have to strain my mercs to complete the mission. You noticed I rejected Rising taxes job. I tried it earlier and it proved to be too difficult for freelancers the way I play... In this career I was lucky to draw Pit fight early in the game and then to get Ordan into stables. That helped a lot, opened space to add tactic cards into every encounter. You know my tactics for VS jobs, it still works, but now I have to put much higher effort to win. And you can notice that I use Juice of Joraa whenever possible and I carefully select my mercs for this type of games, I guess you know why . But this is tactics, not a flaw . Try to keep this kind of balance in 1.3 version. For me game offers lots of fun and I had great time playing it  . Can't wait for 1.3 |
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Post by Dave on Mar 6, 2011 1:32:41 GMT -9
Yeah, I'm putting the armor back on now. |
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: "not sharing his position" means that they will not move in a occupied position, that they prevent other mercs to move where "Lone" are, or both?
(i mean, i didn't win the game) but the hard fighting kept me insterested. Most opponents were just swept away (when they comes out in little numbers they have often no hope).
. Can't wait for 1.3 