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Post by kiladecus on Jan 4, 2012 5:28:13 GMT -9
I am getting closer to "finishing" ERA OF WAR, so it brings up another question: HOW IMPORTANT IS THE LENGTH OF GAMEPLAY? Would you be more likely to buy a game that you could play in 90 minutes, or a game that takes "as long as it takes (without being boring)?" So far, in all of my playtests, the "average" game lasted about 2+ hours (NOT counting set-up or tear-down). What do you tink is a "good" amount of time to play a game? Is a 2 1/2 hour game good? Should it move faster? Here's the thing. I love MONOPOLY. THe thing that most people don't like about it is that it takes HOURS for a good game, and once it starts to shift a certain way, it seems inevitable that it will end the way one might expect. One thing they did right was to come up with MONOPOLY DEAL... a card version of Monopoly. It is a watered-down version, that can be played in about 20 - 30 minutes, and when it's done, you "feel" like you played Monoply. I really like it. They tried the same thing with "SORRY," and I feel they failed miserably! A game of SORRY REVENGE takes as long (if not longer) than the original. I myself think that a game that is worth playing is worth spending the time to play it... no matter what the time. I considered limiting EoW to a certain number of rounds or a set time, "You have 2 hours to play and get off the planet or you die." I am glad I abandoned that concept. I was playing the other day, and I had my SYNFED ("Space Marines") fighting my K'Vyk Army ("Tau"). The first 8 rounds, the SYNFED DOMINATED the K'Vyk. I thought, "WOW, finally someone is going to defeat these guys." I considered calling the game because the K'Vyk had lost 25% of their forces, and had scored no real casualties for the SYNFED. I thought I'd play one more round... Enter Adam Souza's M.A.D.'s... They fired, and took out a SQUAD of soldiers with one volley! It almost routed the tired K'Vyks! Right after that, they started scoring hits right and left. The game REALLY took off at that point. Within three more turns, the whole tide of the battle changed! The game concluded when time ran out, "real-life, and all," and the SYNFED had lost 75% of their army, and the K'Vyk still had 2/3 of their forces. Had I played it out to it's conclusion, I really don't think that the SYNFED could have stood against the numbers of the infantry pouring into the battlefield. I don't have a picture of that battle, so I'll leave you with this one... Attachments:
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Post by kiladecus on Jan 4, 2012 5:32:41 GMT -9
Oops! THat was the wrong picture. I need to label them better! Here is the one I meant to post! Attachments:
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Post by Parduz on Jan 4, 2012 6:03:02 GMT -9
The question can't be fully answered, 'cause it is too subjective. Talking for myself, i cannot play anything that last more than 3h: my gaming group meets in a public room we have got access for each tuesday. This means that we're there at 9:30 PM, and after a bit of chatting and some time spent organizing the tables we start setting up the games. At 1:00 AM we have to start to go. So games like Twilight Imperium never hits a table 'cause they require so much more time. The other way to play i have is to play with the kid (my daughter does not like so much boardgames) and the time limit is more or less the same. So, i'll not buy any game which require more than 2 hours to be played. I have to admit also that i like very few of the games that requires so much time to finish... so i think that my tastes meets my gaming chances very well. Seems to me that gaming industry goes toward shorter (and simpler) games too. A masterwork like EarthReborn is unsold 'cause the customers are afraid by the rules (which are a lot, but harder to explain than to play) and other good games are still unsold 'cause game lenght. If i were you i'd do a deep analisys about why your game should require so much time: if it's a matter of rules/mechanics i'd try to streamline something (i'm thinking about the "roll for any bullet" post you wrote some week ago). HTH
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Post by okumarts on Jan 4, 2012 6:30:26 GMT -9
I always say keep it simple and under three hours. I actually like to keep RPGs as open ended as possible because that's part of the enjoyment. Boardgames or war-games should have a set time in my opinion. I have found that the Katana schoolgirl game can take 30-60 minutes with two players, 45-70 minutes with more. It depends if they are all trying to kill each other or not. Try to visualize what you want to accomplish with your game and structure the rules to achieve that goal.
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Post by uptrainfan89 on Jan 4, 2012 6:54:19 GMT -9
I guess there is no good way to answer this since everyone is different but for me I'd say it's not so much the length of the game but how immersive and cusomizable it is. Take GunCrawl for an example, I can customize every aspect of the game to my or the players liking, from the characters to the enemies, to the weapons, to even the maps, rooms, and items. Also as a bonus GunCrawl is even one or more players, so I can play by myself if I can't get the gaming group together. I'd also say in a game I like the feeling of more control over my character and more actions avaliable to me, because then the character feels more like it's me in the game and not just some piece on the board and that every move or action I take could have concequences or rewards to my character, my team, or the mission. I mean if it's just move, fire, move, fire, with hardly any other actions avaliable then that gets boring quick, but if it's say enter room, fire at enemys, duck behind box for cover, duck back out and fire (taking out the enemeys hopefully), sneek down the hall, snap enemy guards neck that was looking away, go through door, get your tech to disable the bomb, and so on, then that is tons of fun. The second to me is much more immersful and more options avaliable to me as a player. Personally tho I'd play a game that took all day if it was like that, as long as its immersive. I personally don't like games that are too short, it just seems like the adventure was over as quick as it started and your players are like "that was it". To me thats a negative experience. I like coming away from a game and saying "Wow, that was awesome" and everyone excitedly talking about what happened and what they did in the game like "Did you see how I took out those guards" or "remember when we were pinned down and such and such happened". To me that is the positive experience that I wanted. As for Rules I dont mind a lot of rules as long as they are easy to understand. Take the rulebook for GunCrawl for example, it's great and it's almost 40 Pages, tho the first 15 or so pages are the rules then the rest is for character, enemy, and game customization and Its actually about 8 or so pages more if you have the weird science rules and in my case about 8 more for the FAQ I wrote up just to clearify any miss understood rules that can and do come up. (which I still have the FAQ that Mel looked over and said it was all good if anyone wants it?) Lol, but I'll try not to bore anyone with a lot of reading (which is probably too late anyways, Lol) so I guess to answer your main question most of my games of GunCrawl tho take no less than 2-3 hours to play. I could happily play a game for 2-3 hours or all day as long as the customization and immersion was there, Lol. Hope this helps! As a side note this isn't an add for GunCrawl, it's just a game that I personally really enjoy playing! ;D
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Post by glennwilliams on Jan 4, 2012 9:37:21 GMT -9
I prefer the 90 minute range (two glasses of wine or one cigar). Longer and my enjoyment begins to lag--which is why I gave up on S&T/SPI board games.
I also don't like unavoidable complexity. I picked up the Pathfinder Beginner's Box, then the core rulebook. Way too complex for me. I revert to the Metagaming Melee/Fantasy Trip level. I want to be playing, not doing in game research on obscure skills and feats. If you can't hold the rules in memory while you're playing, the game's too complex.
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Post by kiladecus on Jan 4, 2012 10:08:25 GMT -9
Uptrainfan89, we have been friends for YEARS, and I can say you AREthe living embodiment of a "GUNCRAWL" ad!! Interesting, I mentioned wargaming, and I get comments about two different, yet similar "Crawl" games. I am planning on doing a "crawl" version of ERA OF WAR (eventually) that will feature the LUCKY 13 (a rag-tag group of anti-heroes I designed. When I release this, I will also release EoW cards for them so you can use them in EITHER game... shameless self-cross-promotion). ;D EoW is not just about move/shoot. There is a little more to it than that. Perhaps I should work up scenarios, because how "realistic" is it for people to go into battle and just kill eveerything? In most cases (from movies, or things I read) most battles have an objective: Hold the Line; Take the Hill; Recover the technology; Rescue the hostage... I myself was never big on two armies fighting to the death. Ironically, you mentioned games you can play by yourself. I wasn't going to say anything, but... EoW CAN be played as a single-player game! How do you think I have done all of my playtests? There is a certain element that allows for this, and I think it may not appeal to everyone, but it is VERY cool (IMHO), and allows for surprizes even when you are playing a two army game against yourself. How is this possible... BTW, I am pretty sure that this is the ONLY wargame of this type to allow you to play by yourself. Here is what I have come across: A) POINTING UP YOUR ARMY (making cards and whatnot) - about 90 minutes on average. (I tried to make this quicker, but with the LIMITED knowledge of ACCESS I have, I have to do everything in EXCEL. If I knew ACCESS like I do EXCEL, I could put everything in there and then it would just be a matter of clicking on the weapons and equipment, and the computer would fill in the blanks for you. I have considered filling in all of the data and "hiding" the data cells. In order to have this work effectively, I would have to assign codes like "PC" for Projection Cannon, so you don't have to type "Projection" if you choose the Pistol or the Rifle. Just thinking outload). This would also take less time if you didn't have the picture of the figure on the card. This is PERFECT for easy identification of the units, and makes the card look professional. B) SETTING UP THE TERRAIN AND ARMY DEPLOYMENT: This takes about an hour (if there were multiple people "helping" then this could be less, or MORE if the people setting up are like my friends. C) GAME TIME: About 2- 2 1/2 hours. Depending on the game. Using two 1,000 point armies that is about right. Two 500 point armies should run about 90 minutes. D) CLEAN-UP: This can be done as troops are eliminated during play. As far as tallying up "Victory Points," I do what I call a "KILL BOARD." Each unit (beit a squad or an individual figure) has a DATACARD. When they are eliminated, if it is a squad, remove them and hand the card to your opponent. (If it was a vehicle, place your handy-dandy "Dave Okum" fire marker on the model, and hand your card to your opponent). Laying each card in a stack with the number (point cost of the unit) showing, you can easily keep track of the "points" by adding the numbers up as you go along. EVERY unit will have point costs in an increment of "5." So, a unit that is "55" points and another that is "45" will be "100" victory points. As soon as one army has 500 MORE points than the opponent, the game is over, because the losing army will flee. (NOTE: The army doesn't flee at 50%, it is only when the opponent is beating them by more than 50%. If army one has scored 650 victory points, and the other army has scored only 150, the game is over... unless you choose to play it out, but at that point, it would take a miracle). Ok... sorry I drifted off into "RULES-MODE!" Been working on this lately! So, let me thank you all for your input.
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Post by kiladecus on Jan 4, 2012 10:53:57 GMT -9
I know that I may have lost you... and since there are only 4 or 5 people that even bother reading my posts, let me clarify a few things... When I talked about pointing up units, I mention 90 minutes. That is for the WHOLE army. My plan is to have pre-made armies with the set (or as add-ons... who knows at this point). With these pre-made armies, the cards will already be made up. If you are like my buddy, UpTrainFan89 (which I am the same way), you want to personalize it by including your own figures and models. Let's face it, you can't use Finger and Toe models in WARHAMMER 40K, right?! You can (and I do FREQUENTLY) use them in ERA OF WAR. I can use this an an example, because I want to prove to Glenn that the rules are quite simple. COYOTE (something Glenn knows a little somthing about). Keywords: Fast, Wheeled UNIT SIZE: 1 (there is only one per card) ARMOR/SPEED: 4 (This can move 4" per activation; it needs a 4+ to save if hit). HIT POINTS: 3 (It can sustain 3 hits before it is destroyed, and wears Dave Okum's fire). The "standard" version has twin machine guns mounted on it (or maybe those are just ones I put on there from the BUMBLEBEE Utility Dropship... been a while since I built it, so I can't remember exactly). So, it would have these stats: ...................................WEAPON NAME MN SR MR LR .............................................................................(3) (4) (5) PRIMARY WEAPON: 2 Heavy Machine Guns F / 12 / 18 / 24 This says that you have 2 guns, they DON'T have a minimum range (MN), but they DO have a special ability ("F" = Full Automatic. For each "6" you roll, you score one extra hit). The next is the ranges (Short, Medium and Long). There is also a number above each range. This is the "To-Hit" or "target" number to hit the unit you are trying to hit. If they are stunned or in cover, this number is increased or decreased by one. Since your COYOTE is "Fast," it gets 3 actions per round. You can move 12 inches (3x4) OR You can move up to 8 inches and fire both of the guns (4", 4" FIRE). If there were a Secondary Weapon, then you could move once, and fire two weapons... We'll say I added the railgun from the SHIVA on this, too. You could then move 4" and fire BOTH HMG's AND the railgun. If there were a RESERVE weapon, then it could remain stationary, and fire ALL three weapon types. (This is reserved for units like the BEL'S KITTY). So, you are firing at my HEXENTODT, and you moved 8", placing you at 15" (Medium Range) for your HMG's, then you need to roll two dice (one for each gun) and you need to roll a 4+ on each die. (We'll say you roll a "5" and a "2"). You score one hit. I then have to roll a "save." I need to roll a 5+ (because the fighter is among the fastest in the universe, and I have a Armor/Speed rating of 5. Yes, it can move up to 15" per turn if it doesn't fire!!)! If I roll a 1-4, I put a damage counter on my fighter. If I roll a 5-6, I am fine. If I get a second "wound" I flip the counter over, and there are two bullet holes on this side. If I take a third, I remove the fighter from the base, and place my "Dave Okum" fire on the fighter. I hand you the card, and you just score 60 points for downing my fighter. That is more or less how combat works. Pretty simple, yet fun. ;D There are also things like "Stealth" in case you are using Dave Okum's Ninjas, "Recon" for troops that can deploy further than other troops, and one of my personal favorites: RAMMING! That is another bonus to the fast and agile COYOTE! So, it is pretty cut and dry, don't you think?
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Post by glennwilliams on Jan 4, 2012 12:01:59 GMT -9
You're codifying the unit characteristics and presenting them on a card rather than a table (I hope)? Then that doesn't count as a rules complication but as a player's aid (like CRTs and terrain charts).
Anyway to see the WIP?
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Post by Dagger on Jan 4, 2012 13:12:34 GMT -9
I like the way speed and armor are tied to one stat. It stands to reason that the faster you are the less armor you would have.
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Post by gilius on Jan 4, 2012 14:13:14 GMT -9
I guess a miniature wargame will tend to take long to play as there are many operations that take time to perform (moving units, measuring, rolling dice, checking tables) besides the actual decision-making.
As others have pointed out, answers to this question are personal. In my case, I prefer games that last 60-90 minutes. I play infrequently with friends and when we do meet for boardgames/wargames there's a tendency to try to fit as many games as possible in an afternoon/evening. When playing solo, I tend to lose interest if the game drags on for too long.
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Post by kiladecus on Jan 4, 2012 16:08:34 GMT -9
I have posted some of my cards on various threads, but since YOU asked, Glenn, then here you go. Everything is pretty self-evident. I am all about easy and simple. The white border will eventually be shaded a certain color to match the Army colors (Green = Earth Militia; Yellow - Jin'Dan Brotherhood; Blood Red - Xiarn Dynasty, and so worth). There are four troop classes: Green (Core/ Base Troops/ Infantry) Orange (Veteran/ Elite/ Command Forces) Yellow (Fast Assault) Pink (Heavy Support) Things like transports fall into the GREEN catagory, Cavalry, hover and that kind of stuff falls into the YELLOW catagory. Tanks and other play things are PINK. Once you get these down, then it is simple to set up your army. Your army HAS to have a commander! (This is an Orange card). COMMAND . \/ GREEN (Core Units) . \/ You can now add up to ONE of EACH of the following: ORANGE, YELLOW and/or PINK After you add the desired units, you then can add one more GREEN, and then up to one of EACH different color. This works GREAT, and there is NO limit to what you can run, as long as you have a base troop choice to balance out the numbers. I can discuss that later... I think I have side-tracked this thread enough for now! That is what the cards look like. ANY QUESTIONS? Make sense? Attachments:
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Post by kiladecus on Jan 4, 2012 16:18:19 GMT -9
Ok... That's weird! Let me know if you can't access that picture. Normally when I post a pic, it shows up. If you can't see the image, let me know. (I was actually pretty proud of the way this one looked). Any way, the COYOTE only has one type of weapon on it. I included the "Rocket Launcher" to show how the card would look. The "P," "S" and "R" stand for "Primary, Secondary and Reserve weapons. In this case, if the COYOTE were to move 12 inches, it can't fire ANY weapons. If it moves 8", it can either fire it's Rocket Launcher OR both of the Auto-Cannons/ Mimi Guns/ Heavy Machine Guns... (whatever you want to call them). If the COYOTE moves 4", it can fire ALL of it's weaponry. If it had a third ("Reserve") weapon, it could fire ALL of it's weaponry if it didn't move. You can have up to three pieces of weaponry/equipment per squad/unit. I could have said that instead of a rocket launcher, that symbol on the from of the COYOTE was a SHIELD GENERATOR. All weapons cost the same amount of points, so that would still be 60 points for the total on the COYOTE. If you did a custom build, and put two of Glenn's Weapon pods on the vehicle, then instead of "2" on the card, it would be "4" and you would see the point cost increase. If you move 8", you can STILL fire ALL FOUR of the HMG's! This allows for squads of soldiers to be able to move and fire their guns. Infantry can NOT fire Heavy Weapons if they move. Just more explainations... Thanks for your attention! Attachments:
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Post by uptrainfan89 on Jan 4, 2012 16:20:39 GMT -9
Uptrainfan89, we have been friends for YEARS, and I can say you ARE the living embodiment of a "GUNCRAWL" ad!! Lol I think you just might be right kiladecus, lol. You know me all to well lol. ;D
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Post by glennwilliams on Jan 4, 2012 20:41:12 GMT -9
Ah. Gotcha.
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Post by kiladecus on Jan 5, 2012 3:01:27 GMT -9
Today my plan is to make a "DATABOARD" or "BATTLEBOARD." It is a quick reference sheet that new players can use to learn the phases of play and that kind of stuff. I am either going to do it as a 3x10 sheet or a 3x5- double-sided card. I figure I can do it this size, and then have enough space on the page to give 10 damage tokens and 10 action tokens. This should work out great, because that is about how many tokens you need to play. The Action Tokens are double-sided. There will be 5 Green/Blue. There will also be 5 Red/Blue. If, in the case of the COYOTE, it were to move 12", you would mark it with a GREEN token (this is easy to remember because the option: MOVE 12 is in a green box. If you were to move and fire (which is the most common) then you would use the same token, but place the BLUE side up. This helps you keep track of not only who has moved this round, but a reminder of what they did. The damage tokens are squares that have one bullet hole on one side, and two on the other. If a vehicle is damaged, place a token on the vehicle to show how much damage it has taken. If it has more than two, remove the damage counter/token, and replace it with Dave Okum's fire! Here is the damaged ARES ASSAULT VEHICLE. Attachments:
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Post by kiladecus on Jan 5, 2012 3:08:54 GMT -9
Here is an example of my SKELETRONS being marked with a GREEN token stating that they "ran" their maximum speed (which I believe is 8"). Had there been someone in base contact with them when they finished their move, they could have "Charged" and would get one free close combat attack each. That is one benefit of close combat weapons. Another is, just like ranged weapons, they each have a special "ability." Some weapons allow you multiple attacks, sweeping attacks, and even attacks that ignore armor. To be able to use these "special" attacks, you can't move. I found out that if someone could use that and charge, then you can move 8" and have 5 figures getting up to 30 attacks that would need to hit on a 3+. It made charging WAY too powerful. So, I revised it a little and now it maintains balance! Attachments:
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Post by kiladecus on Jan 5, 2012 3:14:21 GMT -9
Here is my VAMPIRE BAT that was brought down when some of KANE's SKULK RAZORWINGS tore throw the metal and drove it into the ground. This is one of those rare occassions when a vehicle was fine, and then had more than 3 wounds inflicted on it instantly. It was the coolest moment in the game. A classic example of how powerful technology (energy shields) are no match for fangs and claws. Attachments:
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