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Post by Dave on Jan 26, 2012 18:37:47 GMT -9
I'd really like to create some multi-level boats and ships, but it's a problem if you actually want to have minis stand up in the lower decks. To do that, the level has to be at least 1.75" tall. A model that size really needs foamcore reinforcement (for the decks anyway) so you're looking at another 0.5" of height before you get to the main deck -- a total of 2.25" above the table. That's not too bad for a really big ship, but it looks silly on everything else. Here's an example of what I mean. This is quite a large boat, about 17" long. In the top example, The lower deck is full-sized (minis can stand in it). The bottom example shows this boat with the lower level eliminated. I know which one is more pleasing to the eye, but it's not the one that's more useful for gaming.  So my question is -- if the lower deck is somewhat realistically submerged (meaning that it will only be about 1" deep on the model, meaning minis cannot stand in it) -- does that defeat the purpose? If the lower deck can't be tall enough for minis to stand, should I just forgo designing accessible lower holds (like the example image on the bottom)? |
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Post by oldschooldm on Jan 26, 2012 18:47:05 GMT -9
I think you may be over-thinking it. Though I prefer the simpler option (having no lower deck at all), it may be just fine to have a lower deck that is partially "submerged":
Mini's don't have to stand up in it - while the upper deck is in place. For gaming purposes the minis can be added after the upper deck is removed. :-) Sure, they "stick out" when on the lower deck, but that's fine - it's all better than a flat-map only choice.
Hmm. Another option is a cool cheat I just thought of - the upper deck could sit "low", nestled into (like a sleeve) the lower deck, 1/2" or so. Then when the upper deck is removed (and the mini's placed into it), it will still look correct.
Don't be a slave to the idea that 3D interiors must have the option to have hidden areas completely set-dressed in advance.
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 26, 2012 19:02:42 GMT -9
I think it was Afet that suggested having a floorplan for the below deck level. I know when we were gaming and we came upon some structure with a trapdoor, we went to just a map of what was beneath.
I think it comes down to this: Is this primarily for gamers or for modelers?
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Post by Dave on Jan 26, 2012 19:13:07 GMT -9
Gamers.
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Post by cowboyleland on Jan 26, 2012 19:44:15 GMT -9
I like Oldschool's "cheating" ideas. But I also think maps are enough. You only really need 3d terrain if elevation makes a difference, so below decks of a ship isn't really a priority. It is however useful to have masts, spars and rigging that can hold a fig, 'cause you know some player is going to want to put themselves there.
Just my thoughts
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Post by aviphysics on Jan 26, 2012 20:23:40 GMT -9
In any RPG I have played in we would have just had a separate map for the lower deck.
Even if there was enough room below the top deck you would still have to take it off and set it aside to use the bottom deck so why not just make the bottom deck map the one you keep on the side.
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Post by Dave on Jan 26, 2012 20:30:51 GMT -9
In any RPG I have played in we would have just had a separate map for the lower deck. Even if there was enough room below the top deck you would still have to take it off and set it aside to use the bottom deck so why not just make the bottom deck map the one you keep on the side. That makes perfect sense to me. I'm working on a chopped version of this river barge and already liking the difference. |
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Post by josedominguez on Jan 27, 2012 0:53:33 GMT -9
Sounds like a good method..... no way to have a realistic depth to the hold of a ship unless it's in water or you dig a hole in the table. A nice matching floorplan would be great..... in fact, that would be superb in lots of your other models  |
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Post by Dave on Jan 27, 2012 1:35:46 GMT -9
josedominguez: Sorry, I won't be providing floor plans for my older models, for many reasons. At some point I'll probably release a set of ground textures that you can use to create your own, though. Going with a more realistic waterline gives us this: 
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Post by golem101 on Jan 27, 2012 2:38:18 GMT -9
Going with a more realistic waterline gives us this: Boat height problems aside, this model is absolutely stunning, makes me want to hunt the Death on the Reik softcover out of my shelves of RPG stuff!  |
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Post by Zephalo on Jan 27, 2012 4:26:22 GMT -9
Boat height problems aside, this model is absolutely stunning, makes me want to hunt the Death on the Reik softcover out of my shelves of RPG stuff! What he said Greetings, Zephalo |
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Post by oldschooldm on Jan 27, 2012 7:50:24 GMT -9
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Post by stevelortz on Jan 27, 2012 10:58:43 GMT -9
Having spent six years in the US Navy with most of it on a submarine, I can speak from experience when I say that tall people can't comfortably stand upright on REAL vessels! If you were over 6' tall on the Pogy, you had to wear a hard hat to keep from cold-cocking yourself on pipes and fittings in the overhead.
There aren't really big areas of empty space below decks on any real vessel, except perhaps aircraft carriers and cruise ships.
Sailors generally couldn't stand upright on the gun deck of a square-rigger, and the decks below that were usually very oddly shaped, and even more cramped.
Most of the space below decks on a river barge would be filled with cargo. The little shack topside would be where the off-watch section would sleep. A barge might actually appear the way the first one looks in your original illustration, riding high in the water, if it had no cargo aboard.
I lived in St. Paul for awhile, and though I didn't spend any time on the Mississippi myself, I got to watch the river traffic.
I guess the upshot of this post is that I favor a low-slung model for the tabletop, and an auxillary map(s) for the below-deck spaces.
Also, the premium on space aboard a river barge is a great raison-d'etre for vessels like the floating kitchen on rivers and in harbors.
Have fun!
Steve
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 27, 2012 11:10:00 GMT -9
This looks very sweet. Steve is right about the hold probably being filled, so there is little sense modeling something that is packed to the gills anyway. Again, the floorplan for below-deck makes sense.
I really like the lines of this boat
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Post by Dave on Jan 27, 2012 12:19:11 GMT -9
It's settled: Realistic waterlines on the model, and separate floor plans for lower decks. One of the nice things about the approach I'm taking with this River Barge is that I can actually include a short flight of stairs down into the lower cabin/hold. It stops part way, of course, but it can be textured in such a way that it looks like it goes deeper. By the way, here's my reference image for this model:  |
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Post by afet on Jan 27, 2012 12:37:16 GMT -9
I'm glad to hear you've chosen to go this route. A map or low-walled version of the below decks area is plenty good for gaming purposes.
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Post by grendelsmother64 on Jan 27, 2012 14:00:23 GMT -9
I guess it depends on the size.
You can cheat a bit with a really big ship (like WWG's Maiden) and make your below decks above the waterline, but any small or midsize ship putting the below decks above water will distort the model too much.
I think you guys have come up with the best compromise: Model for the deck (and maybe one below deck) and maps for anything lower down.
I'm in the middle of doing a midsized schooner (the Hispaniola from Treasure Island....its a little promo piece for a play I'm involved in).
No below decks though...too much work.
I had a hard enough time figuring out the deck profile given the hull angles. Maybe I should start using some actual 3D software.
Shawn
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Post by sammo on Jan 27, 2012 14:09:08 GMT -9
I would suggest that most of the "action" is going to take place on the upper deck anyway, so it is a minor compromise to have a floor plan for the lower decks. Well worth having the ship sit right in the "water" and look good on the table.
I've built a copy of WWG Maiden and any miniature and I rarely pop the upper decks off during game play, plus any miniatures with a spear or an upraised arm doesn't fit down there comfortably with the deck on anyway.
If you want to gussy up the lower decks a bit you could include some 3D props for the masts, cargo, furniture, etc. so it looks as good as the rest of the model.
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Post by Dave on Jan 27, 2012 17:40:31 GMT -9
I'm glad to hear you've chosen to go this route. A map or low-walled version of the below decks area is plenty good for gaming purposes. Yeah, I think it's going to work great. |
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Post by Dave on Jan 27, 2012 17:52:20 GMT -9
Having spent six years in the US Navy with most of it on a submarine, I can speak from experience when I say that tall people can't comfortably stand upright on REAL vessels! That's what was so frustrating about it. I could probably create reasonably realistic lower decks if only miniatures could stoop and bend, and if they weren't usually standing on bases that add 1/8" to their height. |
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Post by afet on Jan 28, 2012 6:45:56 GMT -9
Having spent six years in the US Navy with most of it on a submarine, I can speak from experience when I say that tall people can't comfortably stand upright on REAL vessels! That's what was so frustrating about it. I could probably create reasonably realistic lower decks if only miniatures could stoop and bend, and if they weren't usually standing on bases that add 1/8" to their height. Again, though, you're assuming here that minis need to fit under the upper deck. I don't think they need to. If you were to make a half height lower deck, the minis could be placed after the top deck is taken off, as they would for a simple map of the lower deck. In fact, a half height lower deck would allow better visibility than full height walls for gaming purposes. I think it would be a good compromise. You could create props (cargo, cannons, etc.) that are only 1" high or less. Realistically, they wouldn't scale to be much higher anyway. I'm really just reiterating what oldschooldm said earlier: Mini's don't have to stand up in it - while the upper deck is in place. For gaming purposes the minis can be added after the upper deck is removed. :-) Sure, they "stick out" when on the lower deck, but that's fine - it's all better than a flat-map only choice. [...] Don't be a slave to the idea that 3D interiors must have the option to have hidden areas completely set-dressed in advance. |
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Post by cobra on Jan 28, 2012 7:10:16 GMT -9
I look forward to see this model finished. Just remember the "Berebeli" nameplate The Maiden looks great but it is a large ship, and i agree that no smaller ships like river boats, lower decks are not necessary as full-height decks. A simple floor plan would work nice on these. You could add some minor details like crates etc to be placed on the deck plan when needed, if the top is removed during play. In general anything below the waterline should in my opinion just be made as simple 2d floor/deck plans on models made for gamers and games. Could be fun to have a full depth hull though, just to use for displaying the model between games. /cobra |
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Post by aviphysics on Jan 28, 2012 7:40:23 GMT -9
Having spent six years in the US Navy with most of it on a submarine, I can speak from experience when I say that tall people can't comfortably stand upright on REAL vessels! If you were over 6' tall on the Pogy, you had to wear a hard hat to keep from cold-cocking yourself on pipes and fittings in the overhead. Not applicable to old ships, but I know from a +6' friend who is serving on a newer nuclear sub that he can stand upright. My Father in law on the other hand had an experience much more like yours during his 30 years. @dave, I think you are making the right choice. |
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Post by paperpaul on Jan 28, 2012 16:11:18 GMT -9
I'm really looking forward to this model as I'm buying Daves models for a pirate game. With regards to the height I've walked round the inside of HMS Victory and distinctly remember ducking a lot and I'm only 5'8".
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Post by aviphysics on Jan 28, 2012 16:51:16 GMT -9
BTW... If any of your wives gives you a hard time about papercraft they should thank the lord all mighty you aren't one of these guys. modelshipbuilder.com/page.php?31 |
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Post by cowboyleland on Jan 28, 2012 21:23:05 GMT -9
Yep, there are plenty of modelers crazier than paper gaming modelers. ( It helps if we keep telling ourselves that!) I also point out that some of the most common game occurences are ship to ship, boat to ship, or swimmer to ship actions. In all these instances having an accurate depiction of the waterline to deck dimensions will greatly affect game play.
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Post by Parduz on Jan 29, 2012 6:07:17 GMT -9
BTW... If any of your wives gives you a hard time about papercraft they should thank the lord all mighty you aren't one of these guys. modelshipbuilder.com/page.php?31 eheh One of my oldest and best friend once travel to Venice to get a copy of the building projects of a real ship, and then he built the model rescaling everything "by hands". His wife still remember the building period ;D |
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Post by stevelortz on Jan 29, 2012 13:44:32 GMT -9
Having spent six years in the US Navy with most of it on a submarine, I can speak from experience when I say that tall people can't comfortably stand upright on REAL vessels! If you were over 6' tall on the Pogy, you had to wear a hard hat to keep from cold-cocking yourself on pipes and fittings in the overhead. Not applicable to old ships, but I know from a +6' friend who is serving on a newer nuclear sub that he can stand upright. My Father in law on the other hand had an experience much more like yours during his 30 years. @dave, I think you are making the right choice. was a 637 class. The newer classes are considerably larger. Have fun! Steve |
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