Fantasy Football Game discussion

[Dave]

So I'd like to create a map to regulation BB dimension. What are they? I know there's a 1-inch endzone going across.

Would you want to see alternate configurations? I know Elfball uses some circular thing. I'm not sure if anybody plays that game, though.

Let me know.

[josedominguez]

www.dangermouse.net/games/bloodbowl/field_sm.gif

All the dimensions are in there

[Dave]

What's better: Grid, dots, little crosses?

[josedominguez]

The last edition used little crosses which worked really well, but I think you'd be able to make a more discrete grid using your techniques than the obvious 'game board' that GW produced. E.g. a pitch with cobbles that happen to outline the playing squares. THe crosses worked well though, much bettter than a harsh grid, seems more sensible when using round based minis too.

[enpeze]

A paper BB variant? Great. Please with teams too, then its a must buy for me.

[Parduz]

Mar 11, 2012 9:29:23 GMT -9 Dave said:

Would you want to see alternate configurations?

I'm sorry, but i don't think i've understood your question....

[Dave]

The standard pitch is 24 square by 15 squares. Just wondering if there's any interest for 26x17 or something like that.

[josedominguez]

We should all get together and make Cardboard Warriors Fantasy Football
I love bloodbowl, but always wanted the option of totally random teams rather than race specific ones.

I've started on a sci-fi version, early days though.

[Parduz]

Mar 13, 2012 16:13:46 GMT -9 Dave said:

The standard pitch is 24 square by 15 squares. Just wondering if there's any interest for 26x17 or something like that.

mh... i don't think that it could have any use. With the standard team of 11 players, the pitch is large enough to be not cluttered and small enough to arrange a good defense.

I know there's rules for smaller teams and a smaller pitch (which i don't remember now how it is): perhaps that option could be more useful.
Another idea born while i'm writing is to make the grid squares larger: some minis are bulky, and larger squares could help when they have to be set prone for game effects.

Mar 14, 2012 1:02:12 GMT -9 josedominguez said:

We should all get together and make Cardboard Warriors Fantasy Football

I heartily agree.
My son love BB just a bit less than Heroscape, and we would liketo play with other races (he like elves, i'm a dwarf misguided as a human ), but BB teams costs no less than 40$ (no matter the producer, and without shipping and importing fees) and i'm not willing to pay so much for 12 unpainted pieces.

Sadly, i'm not an artist. I could be useful and willing to cooperate only in coloring if they were draw by vectors, but not so much artists here use that format.

[Deleted]

Mar 14, 2012 1:02:12 GMT -9 josedominguez said:

We should all get together and make Cardboard Warriors Fantasy Football
I love bloodbowl, but always wanted the option of totally random teams rather than race specific ones...

Sounds interesting, I would consider it

[Dave]

Seems like these things always turn into "let's make a game" so let's brainstorm. Ultimately this could be a really cool, free, community-based project. Maybe we can get David Okum and others on board to create the figures. If we divide the labor, we can do all of this stuff ourselves.

So where would you start? What would you like to see in this game? I'll throw out some ideas and see if anything gets your attention.

We need a good name!
The Sporting Guild? Third String Fantasy League? Let's hear your best and most ridiculous ideas. Something is bound to stick.

How do we want to approach the rules?
In broad terms:

How many players (characters) per side? What's the maximum number of characters per team -- and any other minimums and maximums?

What are the win/loss conditions for a game? Can there be a draw, and what happens in that case?

What are the rules for running a season or a series of games?

Should "matches" consist of a best-of-three games, or something like that? Just thinking about how long each match should last. I generally expect to spend about two hours playing a game like this. If the game is fun, and if there's a glimmer of hope of actually winning, I don't mind losing that whole time. (It's kind of important to me that games like this are fun, regardless of how well your team is doing. Spectacular injuries and risky/reversible plays are some of the best things about BB, I think.)

Should we divide the game time into two halves, three periods, four quarters? One of the main reasons to do this is to switch positions around the table, which has an inexplicable but often noticeable effect on play. I kind of like it, and would try to find a place for it in each game (or night of play).

Mar 14, 2012 1:02:12 GMT -9 josedominguez said:

I love bloodbowl, but always wanted the option of totally random teams rather than race specific ones.

I really like the idea of having a team composed of a variety of races, if you choose.

I also like the idea of pitches/fields that vary a little bit from one another. What do you think of "trap" squares, such as fire pits, spike pits, sticky sludge or slippery slime? These could be place-able features, built into the flavor of the arena, or both.

Just got an idea for a pitch design. Let me mock something up and show you it.

[Dave]

Another important question: Squares or hexes?

[Dave]

So here's like a just-throw-it-out-there idea. DaveBall 1.0 involves 10 players per side. It's pretty much BB except for the different scoring zones. Unlike regular football, there's no "marching down the field" or gaining ground each play. Each play is all-or-nothing, and you always start each play at the same line of scrimmage.

The idea is that you'd have different areas on the field where you could "down" the ball and collect your point(s). Possession would then pass to the other team. I don't really know how this would work out in play, and there are lots of possible places for the different scoring zones. This is just a rough idea.

[Deleted]

Orkish defense player... quick sketch
;D

[Parduz]

Mar 14, 2012 20:07:06 GMT -9 Dave said:

DaveBall 1.0

The "hard" part of this is that we have to invent 2 things:
1) a "Sport" that works (even if it is similar to something existing), and the rules that make it working.
2) the game rules that makes 1) playable on a square map instead of in "reality".
Then we need a dozen of playtesting games multiplied for the number of races/variations to tune the whole thing so that the game is balanced.

'cause of 1), this is harder than building a skirmish game (where 1) is just "kill them all"). It's an added layer that need to be consistent, "believable" and fun. That new layer can generate a new "chain" of events.... i mean: we may find that the scoring areas needs to be tweaked, moved or eliminated (which brings to the sport new ruleset, then a new game ruleset, then a new team/character cost/abilities tweaking, new playtesting).
This is, obviously, IMHO

[josedominguez]

Trap squares and custom pitches are a must Dave How about a layered PDF where players can customise a 'home field' (and pay a cost for it in game) allowing them to have some home turf advantage..... pit traps etc. are great, but how about 'swamp pools' for the lizardmen?
As for rules. How about something with an opposed roll mechanic? Takes tables and references out of the game and keeps players involved.
Something like:
Rolling to hit: Attacker rolls 2d6 and adds 'combat skill', defender rolls 2d6 and adds defence. Highest wins (using 2D6 evens out the numbers and makes 'giant killing less likely but increases the range of results e.g. you have a 2-11 range but 7 is much more likely)
Apply this to a 'strip ball'... roll 2D6, both players add strength.

For throwing: Roll 2d6 and add 'throw skill', the target number is the range in inches.

[riotinferno]

Speaking of home-court advantage:

I vaguely remember a television show from the '80s that was like Roller-derby with a pit of alligators. Now that's a sport!
Plus it helped that I was younger then 10, and alligators are cool.

Back on topic:
A board that can be customized sounds awesome, but it's hard to balance that out in-game. It'd essentially be the home player getting to decide where (and what ) all the terrain is. At some point, strategically, you can't really put a value on that.

[Vermin King]

I think YLAM needs to be in on this discussion. Adam???

[josedominguez]

Mar 15, 2012 5:45:18 GMT -9 riotinferno said:

Speaking of home-court advantage:

I vaguely remember a television show from the '80s that was like Roller-derby with a pit of alligators. Now that's a sport!
Plus it helped that I was younger then 10, and alligators are cool.

Back on topic:
A board that can be customized sounds awesome, but it's hard to balance that out in-game. It'd essentially be the home player getting to decide where (and what ) all the terrain is. At some point, strategically, you can't really put a value on that.

PLayed as part of a league campaign it evens out..... you play home and away matches.

[steplightly]

First time posting, long time lurker. I'm not familiar with BB, but with the skill set that this forum has it will look amazing regardless of how it's played. If you begin to create your own game or your own rules for an existing or similar game than I would like to toss into your discussion the game 'Jugger'. I could try and explain but the easiest thing for someone willing to explore would be to wikipedia the movie 'The Blood of Heroes' also known as 'The Salute of the Jugger'. A 1989 post-apocalyptic film staring Rutger Hauer. It could work well with a broad range of minis and races. It might even be easy to set up some tabletop rules since some rules for a live play version exist. Perhaps it could just be inspiring on some level. Anyway, thanks for all you people do for the gaming community. Keep up the great work. If this idea continues perhaps some future hoards could include teams for whatever game you decide on.

[Dagger]

I like where this is going. I especially like the idea of having a static scrimmage line. I would suggest keeping it simple and having a single scrimmage line at the 50 yard marker though.

As for the players, I like the idea of mixing races... because you want to build a team with players suited to your tactics. For example, if you're more defensive you might want more Orcs (good blockers) and if you're more offensive you might want more Elves (good at throwing passes).

Maybe each team would be allowed a few special characters with special abilities... these would be in the key positions like quarterback, wide receiver, middle linebacker, safety, etc...

[Dave]

Mar 15, 2012 17:34:07 GMT -9 Dagger said:

I like where this is going. I especially like the idea of having a static scrimmage line. I would suggest keeping it simple and having a single scrimmage line at the 50 yard marker though.

I figured the other line could have a use as well. For example, an "offside" line that indicates you can't throw or kick the ball once you pass this point (but may hand off). I also figured the offense would have a little more pressure if it had a shortened field to defend in the case of an early interception.

In any event, I want to see more ideas for playing fields, teams, scoring options, or whatever.

ASSIGNMENT (haha): Everybody draw a simple field/arena and post it here. Include likely player positions, or whatever you want. If you don't have a place to host images easily, email it to me and I'll upload it on my site. Also please write some notes about the order of play, objectives, teams, strategies or whatever. We only need rough concepts at this point.

Email if needed: [e-mail]

[Dave]

Mar 14, 2012 23:45:54 GMT -9 mesper said:

Orkish defense player... quick sketch

Really cool! I like the catcher's mitt, and the fact that he's armed with a mace. Having a dedicated goalie is something I could definitely support.

Mar 15, 2012 0:22:28 GMT -9 josedominguez said:

Trap squares and custom pitches are a must

Was thinking that traps could be activated/deactivated at random, or for the duration of a game so that both teams should have to deal with it at some point (after switching sides during halftime or whatever). Maybe you can opt to have 1 less player on the field, and place a trap instead. Or maybe they come into play when you don't have enough healthy players to put on the field.

Mar 15, 2012 0:22:28 GMT -9 josedominguez said:

How about something with an opposed roll mechanic? Takes tables and references out of the game and keeps players involved... 2d6

Yeah, that seems like an intuitive way to handle things. Any thoughts about how we want characters to be statted up? Some basic attributes (for example Coordination, Movement, Strength) and different skills/actions being based on those few core attributes?

Mar 15, 2012 17:34:07 GMT -9 Dagger said:

Maybe each team would be allowed a few special characters with special abilities... these would be in the key positions like quarterback, wide receiver, middle linebacker, safety, etc...

If figure, how you spend your team points is up to you, so if you want a star quarterback you just have to pay for it with some really crummy linemen or whatever. In theory, it seems like you should be able to pick a race for your character -- which comes with some baseline stats and maybe a specific limitation/advantage, and from there you just buy from a stock set of abilities (upgrades) available for any character -- skills, special equipment (or just basic padding!), tricks/talents, endorsement deals (earn a bonus for your team when you personally score a goal?), etc. Some abilities would be race-restricted, as appropriate.

[Dave]

Revised pitch concept, with smaller 3-point scoring zones.

[cowboyleland]

Opposed roll results: Looser Knocked back, looser knocked down, looser injured (2 vs 12?), both players fall on a tie?.

If defensive player is adjacent to receiver and between the passer and receiver there is an opposed roll for reception/interception/incomplete.

Namestorm: Dagoball, Bellicose Ball, Monkey Ball, Paper Polo, Card Carnage, Tearing Fields, Itch Pitch, Quagmire, Last Pitch, Field Swawkey, Burly Hurley, Smash Field, meleehavoc.

[josedominguez]

I think the team building aspect of the game should be done with cards...... download new players and their card on the same PDF.
Each player should have a base cost but be sold 'by auction'

For dice rolls, how about having 'power dice' representing certain skills? E.g use normal white D6 for most rolls, but certain skills allow an additional colour to be used e.g. 'Throw level 1' the player rolls one white and one green dice, the green dice may be re-rolled. Throw level 2: both dice may be re-rolled. Throw level 3- player rolls three dice and picks the best 2.

Just something to add a bit of variety

I was working on a game a while back which had a 'power up' mechanic whereby actions in the game earned experience and then allowed you to customise the card/character.
As specific targets were met (touchdown, fatality etc..) you tick off a box, when the boxes are ticked you pick which skill the character gains. This would allow lots of different characters as very similar base models could have different options available.


The rest of the system was getting a bit complex, but the core mechanic was sound. The blank box on the bottom was to allow players to name the character.

Each stat has 3 health states allowing for fit/light injury/wounded. I figured this would allow for things like berserkers that get stronger as they are injured or were chreatures who could change completely after injury

[Dave]

Mar 16, 2012 4:10:15 GMT -9 josedominguez said:

I think the team building aspect of the game should be done with cards...... download new players and their card on the same PDF. Each player should have a base cost but be sold 'by auction'

Some of this I like, some of it I don't. It seems like it would work great for a one-off match or for long-term seasonal play, but not both. I assume everybody wants to see support for both styles, yes?

One problem I see with the card draft is how to match your miniatures and team colors with the cards you've drafted. I think a build-a-team approach will probably work better -- but using cards to keep track of each player really appeals to me.

If we can come up with a team/character generation/advancement method that works well for both styles of play (short term, long term), that's great. But I think these are pretty radically different play styles and they might require some parallel design tracks (generating robust teams instantly for short-term play, and developing from mediocrity for seasonal play). Just something to watch out for.

---

For dice rolls, how about having 'power dice' representing certain skills? E.g use normal white D6 for most rolls, but certain skills allow an additional colour to be used e.g. 'Throw level 1' the player rolls one white and one green dice, the green dice may be re-rolled. Throw level 2: both dice may be re-rolled. Throw level 3- player rolls three dice and picks the best 2.

I get the impression that straight roll+skill+modifier opposed mechanics (something like 2d6 vs. target number, or 2d6 vs. 2d6) are preferred over dice pools. The likelihood of having something like 10 characters per team tells me that we should keep things very simple, and that makes me lean toward a core mechanic that's something like 2d6.

Roll-and-keep mechanics (roll 3d6, keep any two) could be used for special abilities/equipment. I'm totally for that. It feels special and will make a statistical difference without being overpowered.

---

Your character card example seems a lot more complicated than what I had in mind -- but it looks cool for a skirmish-style game.

Here, I think if a supporting character like a blocker requires more than four or five stats to describe, it's probably too complicated. Star players (the one or two you may have per team) should be described in six to eight stats.

[cowboyleland]

Agreed. The skirmish game I play most is "Song of Fur and Buttons" Two or three stats and a few special abilities, that mostly use the multi purpose "Quality" stat. Keeps things rolling. I do like the 2d6 for less but some"swing."

Maybe one off games just have a higher point buy, something that represents where you might have got to 3/4s of the way through a medium successful season while a campaigne starts the season a bit low and you can improve with experience.

Also, one off game would have to have a more "neutral" board, with less home field advantage.

[Dagger]

Keep it Simple - That's what I was thinking when I suggested only key players have special abilities. Other players only have their basic stats driven by race... maybe with different levels (i.e. rookie, experienced, veteran).

As far as special abilities, I was thinking mechanics similar to SoBH would be nice...

[josedominguez]

I said the stat card was too complicated myself Just put it up for the idea on skills development, which I really like, no separate paperwork, just the cards.