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Post by squirmydad on Aug 10, 2013 21:29:36 GMT -9
Hi all, I'm going to have a "Mayhem in Paper" table at an upcoming local convention and I'm planning to bring finished samples of paper-models and miniatures and have some pre-prints for sale. My question is if you were at a convention what would you pay for a pre-printed uncut sheet of miniatures?
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Post by spaceranger42 on Aug 10, 2013 21:56:56 GMT -9
I would figure it by cost of materials but I think $5 a sheet would be fair for cardstock, maybe a bit more for nice photo paper. Hard to judge really. I have been going to one of the largest game cons on the west coast since I was 16 and I don't think I have ever seen anyone offering paper models. I guess it depends on what you take to sell
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Post by Parduz on Aug 11, 2013 0:37:34 GMT -9
Again, it all depends on what it is. Sorted from "cheap" to most expensive
Inkjet on cardboard inkjet on photopaper same as above but with transparent spray coat/plastified Print from photo printing service with "real" inks on "real" photopaper (this kinf of print is virtually eternal)
Then the number of figures on it is a factor.
But i still think that the real deal is the pre-cutting.
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Post by Rhannon on Aug 11, 2013 1:20:02 GMT -9
Again, it all depends on what it is. Sorted from "cheap" to most expensive Inkjet on cardboard inkjet on photopaper same as above but with transparent spray coat/plastified Print from photo printing service with "real" inks on "real" photopaper (this kinf of print is virtually eternal) Then the number of figures on it is a factor. But i still think that the real deal is the pre-cutting. Surely! I agree with you. Pasiphilo's Paper Minis' sets ( whit five paper figures ) for 4.95 Canadian $ ( about 4,81 USD or 3,61 euros ) are a great deal. This is a very fair price. But it depends on various factors. Great adhesive cardstock, excellent print quality, great front and rear art, excellent packaging, clear instructions, including bases ... For a printed sheet set of average 10 miniatures, if the printing quality and cardstock are good, I think that 4/5 $ is a fair price. If the cardstock is adhesive it is even better ( and the price may be higher ). Imho
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Post by wyvern on Aug 11, 2013 5:13:16 GMT -9
I agree with Rhannon: Parduz has it, I think. Without knowing exactly what's being offered, it's difficult to say what a fair price might be in this case.
There's also a question of whether the minis might be "A"-frame style, or cut-to-outline style, as the "A"-frames are much easier to cut yourself (both time and effort), so would be a "better buy" this way overall. In that case, a useful comparison might be with the Steve Jackson "Cardboard Heroes" sets - flat pro-printed sheets of "A"-frame minis and 2D counters you had to cut yourself originally, which are now available from the SJG e23 website as downloadable PDFs you can print as desired. Not sure about the prices for these, as I bought all the sets in their original pro-printed format (and still use them!).
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Post by cowboyleland on Aug 11, 2013 5:34:52 GMT -9
I picked $3.00. My thinking is this is a loss leader to try to get new people to check out your website (and the whole hobby within the hobby). If you are at a convention there are lots of things you could spend your money on. My question is: "how much can you charge people without really interfering with their ability to buy something else?" On the other hand less than three bucks may feel like a nuisance charge and suggest that the figs have no real value. Although I feel my reasoning is sound, it is clear that everyone is going to feel just a little different about the value of $3.00 so despite all this typing it is entirely possible I got the number wrong : )
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 11, 2013 6:13:25 GMT -9
Everyone is right. Without knowing more specifics, it is hard to say
We don't even know what convention it is ...
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Post by spaceranger42 on Aug 11, 2013 6:54:00 GMT -9
And if it is Gateway Con, I will see you there
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Post by WackyAnne on Aug 11, 2013 7:21:57 GMT -9
Bravesirkevin would have the most valuable answer, perhaps, as he just did this with his minis in a convention in South Africa. He had them professionally printed, and had some cut and assembled as well, I think. Now that's a different market, but same idea, introducing a new product to a new audience. It's an experiment to be sure. Would you be selling the physical product with a digital code for download as well, or just the printed work? Another option, to showcase one of the many advantages over more traditional mini materials.... Did Jim ever sell print + pdf versions on OneBookshelf? IMHO, I would try to aim for that $5 OR MORE mark, with a caliber of print that would be worth it. If that provides a reasonable return for you. You don't want to undersell, and hence undervalue your product; if you price it too cheaply, then people will consider them "cheap". One Monk, and the subsequent paper mini modellers that have grown up around the man and the brand, have demonstrated that paper miniatures are true miniatures, not merely the standins they've been in the past (and too often in the present, still). Adjusting your price either way later on can frustrate people, but better aim a little high, and take pride in your product! Just my two coppers, you'll have to bite the coins to see if they are worth anything
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Post by squirmydad on Aug 11, 2013 8:25:07 GMT -9
The convention is Senshi-Con in Anchorage Alaska the end of next month. It's primarily anime and cos-play with videogames, LARPers (shudder), panel discussions, a geekmarket, and and Artist's Alley. I'll be in the Artist's Alley with my models and Jim's minis. There will be pre-printed sheets of minis, not pre-cut. I'm thinking of having my Sillhouette SD there and charge an additional $2 per page to cut them out. $3/$4 per sheet of minis sounds reasonable, not too cheap, not too expensive. I'm thinking of having some pages of bases as give-aways and a free info sheet on how to assemble the figures and the bases. I thought about selling both a physical product and a DL link but I don't think OBS allows that. You're right, it's mainly fun advertising, I just want to make sure I'm not under-valuing the product.
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Post by Reivaj on Aug 12, 2013 5:45:37 GMT -9
How can i vote in this new poll?? i check the box and them.... what more i must do??
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Post by WackyAnne on Aug 12, 2013 6:31:02 GMT -9
How can i vote in this new poll?? i check the box and them.... what more i must do?? As soon as I checked the box, my vote was added automatically. Your experience may be different dependent on your browser? I'm on Safari...
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Post by squirmydad on Sept 29, 2013 22:01:50 GMT -9
Home from the convention, had a great time, learned a lot of lessons, didn't sell any minis. Did sell a sampan and two tanks though. Chuck Huber (does lots of voice work in anime) was going to buy a page of Buzzers but I comped him instead as he was one of the guests of honor and we'd been having a nice chat. Tomorrow I'll post my favorite quotes, pics are up on FB- Senshi-Con 2013Here's my booth;
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Post by Parduz on Sept 29, 2013 22:23:04 GMT -9
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Post by WackyAnne on Sept 29, 2013 22:42:33 GMT -9
Thanks for sharing the pics! Glad you had fun, sorry you didn't sell any minis, can see why you sold a sampan ... as for the lessons learned, I still think you should have a chat with Kevin and compare notes. Poles apart geographically, but maybe similar challenges... Was there much gaming going on? My first ever con was an anime convention here in town at the end of June, and I barely count it 'cause my only interest was in the Pathfinder Society games going on. Played for 8 hours, tripling my adult tabletop RPG'ing time, at the time But I don't think there was much overlap between gamers (of any stripe, well, there were a few Munchkin players in costume) and the real anime crowd. What was your experience?
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Post by bravesirkevin on Sept 29, 2013 23:10:30 GMT -9
Home from the convention, had a great time, learned a lot of lessons, didn't sell any minis. Did sell a sampan and two tanks though. Chuck Huber (does lots of voice work in anime) was going to buy a page of Buzzers but I comped him instead as he was one of the guests of honor and we'd been having a nice chat. Tomorrow I'll post my favorite quotes, pics are up on FB- Senshi-Con 2013Here's my booth; At the conventions I've been to, I didn't have much luck selling minis either. Did sell a few here and there, and gave away a few at the end of the cons to spread the word a little more. I did sell quite a few CDs with all my premium sets on them however, and that was fairly profitable because I could easily mark the price fairly high at R200 (That's two hundred South African rands, which is about $20). Covered the production costs upon selling the 8th disk and it's been pure profit on every sale since then. In contrast, I was selling laser-printed pages from my sets at R10 each, and single pre-printed, hand cut paper minis at the same price. Made less than R200 total from the combined sales of those products.
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Post by squirmydad on Oct 1, 2013 16:45:06 GMT -9
Cd's would have sold well with this crowd, definitely on the agenda for the next one, thanks. That'll work well with the printed catalogs too. Things I learned- -Need a banner to improve visibility -Battery operated led lights for the display case for better lighting. The convention hall was a bit dim. -Pop culture hook is great for stopping passerby. The Eagle V model got lots of love and got people to stop and look at everything else. Some notable quotes; "My dad would love this"-young girls "Are these collectable?" - many people. And the variation, "I'm sorry, I don't collect those." "I'm not ready to get into an expensive hobby."-some guy in a Furry outfit missing his head, which I'm pretty sure is a violation of the Furry Code of Conduct. "Are these for World of Warcraft?"- many times "They're cool but what would I do with them?" "They kind of look like stained glass." "It's all geeks and nerds here!" to which I replied, "Then I'm in good company." "These are old-school: back before metal or plastic minis everything was like this."-Link explaining my booth to Zelda "These are all from games (the steamtanks), I just don't remember what right now." -some dude trying to sound knowledgeable in front of his buddy. "If I have five dollars left later maybe I'll buy something."-some guy who kept coming back "Are these for a game?" / " What game are these for?" (overheard) "I wonder what else I can spend money on?" Oh miss? I have an idea! I should develop a game for the steamtanks, would make for a fun demo if nothing else.
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Post by okumarts on Oct 1, 2013 17:20:50 GMT -9
Having worked many anime cons in my role as an illustrator of how to draw manga books I also recall my stint as game designer and artist at the same cons and it was night and day. Most anime and manga fans are not gamers in the tabletop sense and the combination can seem jarring to some. And I was illustrating and writing books for an anime-inspired role playing game! Wargame conventions can be even less welcoming if it isn't 'standard issue' or really expensive. It's an odd, rarified world we inhabit as paper-craft gamers. Wheels within wheels.
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Post by WackyAnne on Oct 1, 2013 19:19:39 GMT -9
Having worked many anime cons in my role as an illustrator of how to draw manga books I also recall my stint as game designer and artist at the same cons and it was night and day. I only learned yesterday that you'd had such a life before paper mini publishing! Followed a link to an Italian review of your Katana Schoolgirls, and saw the Joe Shuster podium. Then your stuff on Amazon! I showed my 7-year the "look-inside" and plan on picking up a book or two for his Christmas present. He was asking what your superhero name and power was I can't imagine anyone selling minis of any kind (well, _gaming_ minis of any kind) at Animaritime. I'd love to check out the regional big con - Hal-Con - but don't think it's in the budget :/
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Post by squirmydad on Oct 2, 2013 11:14:06 GMT -9
I wasn't terribly surprised at my lack of sales, it was an exposure event for me. When I went two years ago the "Artists Alley" was only two sketch artists doing different things and Winter Powell premiering her new Bloodcross graphic novel.
This year there were seven sketch artists, mostly doing similar things, Brett Uher premiering his Daemonology graphic novel, Katie Tiedrich as a guest speaker selling her Awkward Zombie tpb and doing sketch work, and Winter Powell selling t-shirts and prints from Bloodcross and doing sketch work. I had to kick and cajole Winter into coming this year, she had dropped her publisher and was despairing a bit. I and others there helped her get set up and she felt a lot better once she had pencil and paper in front of her. There were also a half dozen vendors selling anime and manga paraphenalia for top dollar, and they did all right. It was the small artists that I felt bad for; too much similar competition in a small market.
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Post by Rhannon on Oct 3, 2013 0:26:18 GMT -9
I wasn't terribly surprised at my lack of sales, it was an exposure event for me. When I went two years ago the "Artists Alley" was only two sketch artists doing different things and Winter Powell premiering her new Bloodcross graphic novel. This year there were seven sketch artists, mostly doing similar things, Brett Uher premiering his Daemonology graphic novel, Katie Tiedrich as a guest speaker selling her Awkward Zombie tpb and doing sketch work, and Winter Powell selling t-shirts and prints from Bloodcross and doing sketch work. I had to kick and cajole Winter into coming this year, she had dropped her publisher and was despairing a bit. I and others there helped her get set up and she felt a lot better once she had pencil and paper in front of her. There were also a half dozen vendors selling anime and manga paraphenalia for top dollar, and they did all right. It was the small artists that I felt bad for; too much similar competition in a small market. Hi Eric, ( Ok I know that I have yet to respond to you personally, I'm sorry ) My "penny" about the subject ... people ( buyers ) in conventions, in stores ... are attracted more easily from finished products, imho. and I think that a good print has its "good" ( expensive ) cost. And this is not even a product immediately usable. I think that pasiphilo's solution, after assessing the production cost, is the best possible "visual impact" for occasional buyers. ps: sorry, it's a fast photo taken with my S4
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Post by bravesirkevin on Oct 3, 2013 0:34:06 GMT -9
Have no real knowledge about what the markets are like in other places, but I had several finished paper minis at my stands and I struggled to sell them. Landed up giving most of them away at the end of the con, just because they had my website details on them and I'd run out of business cards and flyers.
That said, most people who use minis here play either Warhammer or Malifaux/Warmachine so they're a little attached to their metal and plastic minis. Role-players either don't use minis or insist on using the good stuff. I seem to recall that the pre-painted plastic minis that WotC released a couple years ago didn't sell well here at all. It might well be very different in different countries.
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Post by cowboyleland on Oct 3, 2013 4:07:16 GMT -9
The WotC plastics are the most common figures I see being used around here. Rhannon's photo of Pasiphilo's product does look like something people would pay for, but it think the price would have to be less than half what you'd pay for the plastic competition. You can buy common plastic figs for a buck or two a piece.
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Post by mahotsukai on Oct 3, 2013 4:54:12 GMT -9
As an RPG player and war gamer of many years. here are my thoughts.
War gamers want toys, so are unlikely to go 'paper' unless there are constraints (space/money).
Rpg players want 'Character' in their minis, are unlikely to go paper unless GM/group has already gone that way.
Rpg GMs want tribal groups of the tribal monsters. Despite there being so many different tribal creatures out there, GMs tend to concentrate on the basic goblinoids, Why? Because manufacturers concentrate on the goblinoids. How many manufacturers make basic goblinoids? How many make good lizard men or even sahuagin or any none goblinoid tribal monster? How many GMs would get bucket loads of these if they became available?
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Post by aaron on Oct 3, 2013 5:38:11 GMT -9
ok stupid question ... why are we going to conventions for anime or cosplay or add *non papercraft gaming here* It seems to me that were trying to shove a square peg in a round hole. Why not start are own conventions? I know they are hard to do and expensive when you do them on a large scale but like G3 or any of the super huge cons why not start small out of a cheep location using simple advertising. Also we could use it as a meeting of the minds sort of thing and even if we don't get any people buying our stuff at least we could meet with other like minded people and have that face to face synergy. I have learned a TON from you guys just on this forum I can't imagine what I would learn hanging out for a weekend. Then over time we gain support from people when they see how are products can improve their gaming experience. Also one HUGE aspect that most people are failing to mention is the game. Eric if you had a game going on behind you ( even if you had to coerce people to play it or pay super hot scantily clad young ladies to play it ) then you would have sold a lot more. people would have been able to see what it was you were offering them. GW does this at all their cons, so do most gaming companies. soooo any one up for a small town paper gaming convention ! we coulc call it PG con or page con LOL come on you know you all want to and right now your thinking do I have time for this ...
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Post by bravesirkevin on Oct 3, 2013 5:52:45 GMT -9
ok stupid question ... why are we going to conventions for anime or cosplay or add *non papercraft gaming here* It seems to me that were trying to shove a square peg in a round hole. Why not start are own conventions? I know they are hard to do and expensive when you do them on a large scale but like G3 or any of the super huge cons why not start small out of a cheep location using simple advertising. Also we could use it as a meeting of the minds sort of thing and even if we don't get any people buying our stuff at least we could meet with other like minded people and have that face to face synergy. I have learned a TON from you guys just on this forum I can't imagine what I would learn hanging out for a weekend. Then over time we gain support from people when they see how are products can improve their gaming experience. Also one HUGE aspect that most people are failing to mention is the game. Eric if you had a game going on behind you ( even if you had to coerce people to play it or pay super hot scantily clad young ladies to play it ) then you would have sold a lot more. people would have been able to see what it was you were offering them. GW does this at all their cons, so do most gaming companies. soooo any one up for a small town paper gaming convention ! we coulc call it PG con or page con LOL come on you know you all want to and right now your thinking do I have time for this ... I think that comes down to two major issues: Geography and feasibility. The producers are spread all over the world, and so are the customers. Would be easy if there was a major centre where the majority of producers and fans lived, but there's no way for a successful con to happen without a massive chunk of the exhibitors and attendees taking international flights. As for that success, I don't think the print-and-play scene is mainstream enough to generate the kinds of revenue you'd actually need to justify that kind of event, let alone encourage swarms of people to get on trans-atlantic flight. Would be nice though.
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Post by aaron on Oct 3, 2013 6:22:44 GMT -9
well I for one would love to use it as an excuse to visit Rhannon and tour Italy or you in south Africa ! I mean how cool is that... but all in all I think there is a sleeping market for this like a giant pocket of methane gas that's just waiting for an open flame. I think that with most of the worlds economies changing, when people discover how much control they have in the over all product... with the right advertising and the right game, Paper models will explode! look at pog , pokeymon cards Hero quest the early days of space hulk ... there is a HUGE untapped market for this sort of thing we just need to figure out how to tap into it. I'm making a papercraft table top war-game that will rival 40k and war machine so I don't just have a bunch of random paper models, they all go to a particular game that I can market. I now have a product that I can have a "building it" workshop around , create how to videos for YouTube and sponsor ternaments, I can even have a paper version of Games Day when it gets big enough. once I'm finished I'm send the completed game to MiniWargaming.com and asking them to review it, I will create my own YouTube channel just for my game I will tweet about it and send copies to Girl Gamer, and Wil Wheaton so they can review it. the bottom line is I think there is a huge market for this but we ( all of us ) have been either doing it as a hobby or just random models that could be used in other games making the success fairly buckshot. I'm making Temporium Oblitus my full time job and to have a PG Con would be a huge step in the right direction for all of us. I know that it's very very hard to hop a flight to San Antonio from South Africa, Italy , Canada, the UK and all the places that people are from but why not start building the community where you are? If we all start tapping into local resources it won't be long before we do have that Center of Producers and fans in the same location. it's just a matter of time and energy getting it going. Then eventually like E3 people will be flying in from all over to participate in one of the worlds largest PG cons that is put on in your town. Then the cosplayers and gammers will be coming to our cons. I mean really we can't be the only ones out there who like this stuff.
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Post by squirmydad on Oct 3, 2013 6:44:11 GMT -9
I went to an Anime Con because the gaming con isn't until February, Alaska is a bit starved for accessibility to conventions. Made for a good trial run at the market. I d agree that having a game demo going would have been great fun, just would have meant a bigger investment in table space and preparation time.
The Anime con was local, which was my local resource.
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Post by aaron on Oct 3, 2013 7:07:27 GMT -9
I have been showing my game to people here locally in San Antonio, Kids from late Jr High, to guys in College all the way to some older guys in my neighborhood when we were having a block party BBQ. In all cases I found people with cash in hand that were ready to buy what I was selling. Now my game is good, but it's not that good. I'm a decent salesmen but I'm not great at it. Yet in all areas I there were people and in some cases many multiply people with cash in hand. This leads me to think that it's not my product per-say but an untapped market who is starved for this sort of thing. I don't know much about Alaska? but if you have local schools then you have an untapped resource. Especially if you have any colleges you have a HUGE resource as these guys are competitive and cheep. In AK they get socked in for a few months in the winter don't they ? what a better way to spend it then building and playing your papercraft game? I remember as a kid being stuck on Adak for a few EXTREMELY long weeks ( military ) before they transferred my dad back to Maine. I would have killed for something to do, it was to cold to go out and really boring to stay in... if you had come along selling paper minis and a game to go along with it I would have given you all I owned, like fish in a barrel, My wife is an online professor at BYU Idaho in Rexburg and I can tell you those boys have nothing to do ... they were the most responsive my game and will probably be the focus of my advertising. like the guys stuck in Rexburg you my friend have a captive audience time to get to work LOL
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Post by okumarts on Oct 3, 2013 7:30:23 GMT -9
Having worked many anime cons in my role as an illustrator of how to draw manga books I also recall my stint as game designer and artist at the same cons and it was night and day. I only learned yesterday that you'd had such a life before paper mini publishing! Followed a link to an Italian review of your Katana Schoolgirls, and saw the Joe Shuster podium. Then your stuff on Amazon! I showed my 7-year the "look-inside" and plan on picking up a book or two for his Christmas present. He was asking what your superhero name and power was That's awesome! I still illustrate books and do comics, just focusing on gaming stuff for a few years. The conversation here is really interesting. It wrestles with some of the same issues I've noticed in Role Playing and Wargaming for a few years now. Back in the late 90s I worked with Guardians of Order and noticed that the market for RPGs is shockingly small compared to video games or even comics. I am pleased with the interest and sales of my digital miniature work. I think it is realistic and indicative of the market. When I expand to digital game books and comics I'm interested to see what the response will be.
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