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Post by mesper on Oct 2, 2013 6:11:11 GMT -9
User's confusing comment on Rogue, Thieves and Assassins set: "The figures are outstanding, but they don't stand unless you go through a lot of work to make bases. They never heard of A frame figures I guess. When they switch to the better standard, I'll order their whole line. Until then, too bad."
"Better standard"I was sure that there is already some kind of widely known/recognized "papercraft standard" for basing established.Of course base "systems" may vary, depending on publisher, but in fact are quite similar, so it's on user/modeler side to decide which one is more appropriate/useful for him... (vide OneMonk or Reivaj / BraveSirKevin exchangeable bases, then there are some 3-d party basing systems like plexi LITKO etc.)
//Funny thing is that my 60mm figurines comes with integrated bases, so for 30mm I have to REMOVE these bases// Actually providing figurines only with tabs should be recognized as advantage - user can use his preferred bases, replace bases according to game or needs (storage) etc.
=>>So any ideas regarding "Better" standard?
Then "Frame figures" Anybody know what's that?
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Oct 2, 2013 6:21:28 GMT -9
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Post by squirmydad on Oct 2, 2013 6:30:17 GMT -9
A-frame style: /\ It's how things used to be done, the tabbed bases are really a better looking and more versatile design, the A-frames are just simpler and faster.
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Post by mahotsukai on Oct 2, 2013 7:38:12 GMT -9
Sounds like the type who wants pre-built models and pre-painted miniatures. An unfortunate product of our instant gratification, computerised age.
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Post by spaceranger42 on Oct 2, 2013 7:57:07 GMT -9
I used to use bi-fold and tri-fold paper minis when TSR first put out their Dungeon Tiles, I think the tabbed front/back minis are FAR superior. Maybe the person who made the comment simply isn't in the know about anything other than that one method. I would, if I were you, educate them with a brief comment and an example, maybe a link to this forum.
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Post by Vermin King on Oct 2, 2013 14:45:33 GMT -9
Honestly, if they want A-frame, they can just fold a little different and put a dab of glue at the top of the head. But in my own opinion, A-frame mini's never look right and they always get crushed.
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Post by WackyAnne on Oct 2, 2013 16:20:00 GMT -9
There are (arguably) 4 main methods used for basing paper standees/miniatures: Based clearly, the superior choice by superior people The only one I'd consider a true "miniature", as it's more customizable by the end user, and it's the only one where the outline is cut-out, AFAIK. T-Frame was likely the precursor to the basing method developed by One Monk, and may be what you mean by integrated base... A-Frame is really just a stand-in for traditional cast miniatures, just a simple piece of paper folded over in a triangular or "A" shape, tucked, taped, or glued together on the bottom only. Trifold or Triagonal the figure is oriented perpendicular to the longer edge, folded in three, with each side showing the figure (usually the same image, sometimes mirrored or silhouetted).Trifold minis are standard for Savage Worlds releases. Both A-frame and Trifold are often referred to as figure flats, and seem to be more disposable... Best visuals I can offer are the instructions for Arion Games' free miniatures set [A-frame, T-frame, and Tri-fold options] or this from Fantanomicon Press' Printable Pawns: Basic Dungeoneers product page on RPGNow. P.S. AFAIK is an abbreviation for "As Far As I Know" for those not in the know
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Post by hackbarth on Oct 3, 2013 4:11:15 GMT -9
While I consider that "true" paper minis are the cut-out outline, based figure, it seems that there are people willing to buy high quality paper miniatures and then just half-build them to put on the table. A waste of good art, in my opinion, but an option for the customer nonetheless.
I wouldn't preach for the customer what is the "right" way to building the paper minis (sounds to me like the GW fanatic ways of having the "right" paint, "right" bases, "right" color scheme). The effort to layout the figures in a way to accommodate all building methods at the same time seems to be minimal. I think Jim has made something similar with his apocalyptic tabletop game miniatures.
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Post by cowboyleland on Oct 3, 2013 8:19:36 GMT -9
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Post by wyvern on Oct 3, 2013 12:10:15 GMT -9
Personally, I find all types of paper minis, whether based, inverted T, A-frame or trifold have both advantages and disadvantages. I certainly wouldn't consider one or other type "superior" to any other, because you could then go on to argue that flat paper minis aren't as "good" as 2.5D or 3D ones, which in turn are "merely" the poor cousins of 3D moulded plastic, resin or metal minis. Looking at what's available on One Book Shelf, A-frame minis could be arguably considered the most popular right now, given there seems to be many more of these available than any other kind (also more variety in styles and genres).
My first paper fantasy gaming minis for RPGs were the Steve Jackson "Cardboard Heroes", all of which were either A-frame standees or flat counters, provided on printed card you had to cut up and fold yourself (going back to the early '80s here; no PDFs then!). They've all survived intact, a little worn in a places, despite assorted amounts of gaming, moving about and storage down the decades, so I wouldn't really agree with the somewhat downbeat "disposable" argument for such minis either. In my experience, they've seemed at least as robust as any other paper minis I've seen and made in more recent times, possibly more so, as they were pro-printed rather than whatever I've been able to run off at home.
Going back to Mesper's original posting, it can't be assumed that everyone will be aware of the knowledge here about paper mini bases. It was something of a surprise to me too to initially discover there were no bases provided with the first Permes minis I bought and made up, and no information as to where such might be found (there was a website address suggested as somewhere to find more information about the minis in the PDF, but it was no longer functioning; Forest Ambush Elves set, from memory). So the user's "confusing comment" seems entirely accurate and straightforward to me. Perhaps that's something to think about mentioning in future releases? Anyone coming to the hobby fresh just isn't going to know this basing strategy either, after all.
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Post by mesper on Oct 3, 2013 13:40:39 GMT -9
Thank you ALL for valuable comments, suggestions and advices! Well, I know, it's just one "confused" and kinda disappointed end user (who knows, maybe there is more but this one shows up) . Still I'm kinda confused... adding additional "frames", reverting figurines vide mandmanmike's A-frame's etc. to the already "outlined" and "tabbed" figurine shouldn't be tough task (ok maybe dull/boring)... however it's true for one or couple of figurines - but for the whole set with dozens of minis it wouldn't be that funny nor easy (in terms of time spent, even if most of the job could be easily automatized), but then c'mon remaking ALL released sets?!? Hmm... OMG just thinking of it makes me wanna to withdraw from 30mm scene... Yep! It's true that I've more or less neglected basing - I could (should?) add some more info + at least some basic bases perhaps... So probably I'll release set(s) with some various yet typical bases (you know: grass, sand, rock etc. grounds) - so users can download these for FREE? Anyway in the meantime I'll start some TEST DRIVE - mostly for fun - lets' say one figurine from Rogues(...) with "multiple/universal" basing system AND with some optional changeable bases. =>>>You will be able to download this and put it to the test - any comments / photos / suggestions will be highly appreciated So - here's "test-drive" Hooded Rogue draft/idea preview (Human this time while originally green-skin Orc): (Yes, I know... some weapons /daggers preferably?) should be added:) Thanks again for comments and suggestions!
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Post by squirmydad on Oct 3, 2013 14:22:06 GMT -9
I include this tabbed instructions pdf in every miniature package: tabbed instructionsYou might consider doing the same thing.
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Post by cowboyleland on Oct 3, 2013 16:59:54 GMT -9
BTW Mesper, since you have so much detail all the way to the tab line on your mini's, you should consider promoting Reivaj style bases. It would mean assembling the mini as usual, scoring the bottom ground line, cutting the tab in the middle up to the bottom ground line and folding one half of the tab forward and the other half of the tab back.
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Post by WackyAnne on Oct 3, 2013 19:43:39 GMT -9
cowboyleland What I've been doing is folding the front/rear of the mini back, tucking the tabs on the inside while I apply glue on the mini body. Next I stick them together, leaving the tab part dry and unglued. Finally I slit the tabs apart at the fold with an #11 blade. While it's not as clean a cut as I'd like (no matter how new my blade I ended up "sawing" a little bit), it works better than than slitting the glued tabs up the middle. At least it works best for me with most pieces, and certainly with minis like some of Okumarts' more active poses. When I did a set of Xtea's draft horses on plain paper stuck to cereal board the resulting tabs were strong enough to base the minis (while I put off making a silly 50mm circle for Pathfinder rules ) EDIT: I forgot to specify that I use (slightly modded) Reivaj bases - though this allows for either method... or for using Pathfinder Pawn bases, which I often use too.
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Post by wyvern on Oct 4, 2013 0:30:00 GMT -9
Well, I know, it's just one "confused" and kinda disappointed end user (who knows, maybe there is more but this one shows up) . Still I'm kinda confused... adding additional "frames", reverting figurines vide mandmanmike's A-frame's etc. to the already "outlined" and "tabbed" figurine shouldn't be tough task (ok maybe dull/boring)... however it's true for one or couple of figurines - but for the whole set with dozens of minis it wouldn't be that funny nor easy (in terms of time spent, even if most of the job could be easily automatized), but then c'mon remaking ALL released sets?!? Maybe it would be worth adding a "Publisher's reply" to comment on the fact A-frame minis are only one style of paper figurines, and that yours are of the alternative based format? That way, you could also add a link-address to the One Monk free bases (or elsewhere; don't know if the new site has links to things like the Papercraft Dungeon free bases yet, for instance). Yep! It's true that I've more or less neglected basing - I could (should?) add some more info + at least some basic bases perhaps... So probably I'll release set(s) with some various yet typical bases (you know: grass, sand, rock etc. grounds) - so users can download these for FREE? Excellent idea! I'm all in favour of increasing the options for base textures and styles. Also, part of the reason the Forest Ambush set sticks in my mind is there were at least two scenery items that needed longer bases than anything available free (OK, so in theory rectangular bases long enough existed, as long as you didn't mind cutlines every few centimetres along them), and these really would benefit from customised Permes bases, possibly even included with the set. I simply used some of the free One Monk grass textures to generate my own, but again, I'd guess anyone paying for a minis set might reasonably expect such "special" bases at least might be included in the package.
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Post by mesper on Oct 5, 2013 16:23:54 GMT -9
I'll try to reply to some of above posts later... =>>In the meanwhile Human Rogue preview. Please note that there are 2 versions. Despite the colours the second (smaller / left one) is really different - I'd count this one as at least "heavy" mod if not actually brand new fig. Changes/versions:Face-mask removed +bag added, no daggers this time - obviously this one rogue prefers heavy club! (why bag: rogues and thieves needs some storage for keys, tools and other stuff needed for picklocking, not even mentioning some stolen goods;)) Last but not least - plate leg armour and chainmail removed. Anyway - any comments or suggestions?
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Post by WackyAnne on Oct 5, 2013 18:33:48 GMT -9
This one looks good & sneaky
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Post by mahotsukai on Oct 6, 2013 5:26:32 GMT -9
Bags, pouches and sacks are a must for any adventuring type.
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