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Post by abaddonwormwood on Mar 4, 2009 12:30:23 GMT -9
Next month we will see GW launch their new Lord of the Ring based mass combat game. From what I understand, read that as limited understanding, is that this is the game that everyone wanted when the first game came out. It is using the same figures as the last game but with differented bases..... and I say who cares! I have One Monk on my side! I have no wish to game down in the "Den of Red Shirts" so I am aiming to build up my armies with the power of the One Monk.
I know Kane is on-board with this game and has mentioned that he will work with us to make Jim's work WotR compatible.
This game I am looking forward too, I even actually love the minis produced by GW for it but I know I will never paint them so I am not even thinking about buying them. What I am prepared to do is sink cash & time into One Monk so people can see how easy & cheaply they can game this game.
Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by magpiestear on Mar 4, 2009 13:29:00 GMT -9
I'm with you Lord Ab!! Middle earth gaming is my all time favourite setting for games. Funnily enough I was looking at their new releases on the GW website earlier this evening. Basically the bases are simply movement trays for the LOTR figures. Infantry bases have slots/holes for eight 25mm round bases and cavalry have two slots/holes. They also have a downloadable introductory 2 page pdf of the rules so you can get the gist of the basics before remortgaging your house to buy the rules when they eventually get round to releasing them. I haven't had chance to peruse them yet but it looks in essence like a 25mm version of warmaster!!! But you remove figures as casualties, and as you will need lots of figures their plastic sales will go up!!!!!! I have to admit that I too like the LOTR figs but just can't bring myself to buy them anymore. SO.............It should be possible to play with Jims figures, simply by using his terrain overlays to make movement trays of the relevant size and sticking an appropriate number of bases on it, thus allowing the casualties to be slipped in and out. Now all we need is for Jim to do some classic dark age fantasy figs, suitable for the realms of middle earth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! maybe by 2020?
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Post by kane on Mar 4, 2009 14:40:38 GMT -9
Was just thinking of posting this over here. Yeah, I demo-ed the game and it is a BLAST to play. Might have something to do with getting a formation of 6 Knights of Minis Tirith to kill a Troll in ONE ROUND! Was all luck, but it was AMAZING. Everyone was cheering that one. A couple of players and one of the GW workers compared it favorably to Warmaster and even DBA.
Amazingly, even by the official rules, you don't need the GW bases. Just bases that are 110mm by 60mm for infantry and 90mm by 50mm for cavalry. I was thinking how well it would work to use cardstock with slots to just slide figs in and out of.
Anyway, its a fairly simple system, so making up new troops should be very easy. Also, the core book is...well, the only book they have planned. It has a multitude of different armies from every era. I'm sure that will change eventually, but their is nothing on the schedule for more books, just models. With the variety of models available, their should be lots of special rules to mix and match from the book to try and cover whatever and the points seem to be fairly low so figuring fair costs should be pretty easy.
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Post by magpiestear on Mar 4, 2009 15:12:55 GMT -9
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Post by abaddonwormwood on Mar 4, 2009 16:22:52 GMT -9
I will wait for either a birthday (about mid-year) or keep an eye out on ebay for it.
Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by silentsquirrel on Mar 4, 2009 16:36:25 GMT -9
Wow! At that price I hope the ink is made of gold! That's really a bit steep for rules.
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Post by boromirandkermit on Mar 4, 2009 17:25:25 GMT -9
I'll be picking up these rules without a doubt. Yes its expensive, but it really does look like an awesome set of rules. I thout there was a convertor for Warhammer stats into Lord of the Ring stats somewhere - so it can't be too hard to do for the paper minis - which would be awesome! Jim you'd need to do a reptile/amphibian army though ;D Ben.
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Post by kane on Mar 5, 2009 7:56:10 GMT -9
The price is a bit high, but considering the quality of the book, I'd say well worth it. 300+ pages I believe and all glossy color in a heavy, hard binding. That said, I would recommend Wayland Games for GW products. They sell the original LOTR hard bound for £22.50, so this one should only be a bit more. With the exchange rate, they are typically 30% to 40% off retail and their shipping rates are EXCELLENT. For this book only about $10. Their plastic models, for several sets was only $7. ANYway. Yes, more lizards, please! Hmmm...thinking those kobolds with an alternate head and color scheme could make some skink-y soldiers. Also, in the LOTR boxed sets, their are only 3 or 4 different designs for each troop type and even then they are just minor changes. I gotta say, they look really good ranked up. Jim already proved it with the shots of the Elves, but it bears repeating, when its rank and file soldiers (with standard armour/dress), less variety is actually more convincing. As for a Warhammer -> LOTR conversion, will check on the LOTR Yahoo sites. Lots of resources there.
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Post by abaddonwormwood on Mar 5, 2009 21:54:13 GMT -9
This game looks great - I mean it's a real standard GW game but it's up there with Epic and BattleFleet in fun and lightness but with the depth of a fast moving river. I spent two and a half hours in a GW store today, I went in during the day whilst the kids were in school so the store guys (not kids) had time to real run through this game with me. I got to leaf through the rulebook (full colour) and it is impressive in layout - though I will have to get it from a third party as the $90AUD tag is a tad too much. I think they GW has this mind set that if a computer game will drop $90 - $110 then it's only clear that wargamers will do likewise. On the note of computer games, this game (WotR) has that RTS feel to it more so than their other games. I cannot put my finger on it right now why I say this but the feeling is there. As for the minis - I could only smile and say "Well I'm waiting for the elves to be released" to stave off the sell of the GW chap (he wasn't bad, he knew that I was not going to part with cash right now. ). I do love the feeling of the LotR range and I know that they would paint up very nicely but when you think that the trial game is about 300pts and that the avg. standard game is going to start around 1000 well that is a lot of cash that you still have to sink into it. Sinking cash into games is GW's bead and butter, this I understand but the set up of this game is very clever - they are selling plastic - selling the fact that it's cheaper than metal therefore it's a cheaper game to get into..... Then the other shoe drops once you see the force sizes that this game is meant to play at, this game is Epic is scope and epic in wallet gouging. I look forward to building One Monk WotR forces for this game. It is up to us, the forum, to spread the truth of Jim's work with pictures and battlereports. We need to come up with some movement trays and Cav. base plus monster base. On a off topic note: After play this game - which I think is going to be great fun, I understand my love for reaction based games even more so now. I was so preaching the love of All Things Zombie to this guy. Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by magpiestear on Mar 6, 2009 2:08:09 GMT -9
Yep, one box of plastics gives you 3 bases of troops, but then you'll need heroes and command figures and they do those in metal. The pre order section of their site showed the orc command set being £15 GBP for three figs!!!!! Now I know why Jim's releasing the elf command separately!!
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Post by kane on Mar 6, 2009 7:30:12 GMT -9
Yeah, the command units are a bit much, BUT, you only need one per FORMATION not per unit. They are the last models killed in combat, so don't need more than one set per formation. Of course, if you use lots of tiny formations, you would go broke FAST.
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Post by abaddonwormwood on Mar 7, 2009 3:45:26 GMT -9
Just one semi off-topic comment.
When I was in the GW store it really hit home how crap the terrain is that GW produce and the lack of terrain that is on the tables. I know that I have been spoiled by THW & Song of Blades and other games but ....WTF. That and the fact using Cardstock terrain for so long that looking at some of the plastic terrain and the self built stuff just lacks the depth. Now this might sound elitist and blinked but just looking at the lack of depth of colour and the bleakness of textures gets my blood up. I mean where is the pride of fighting on a fully furnished table, a table that can tell a story on it's own let alone once the battle is done.
Sorry but it's just one of those things that for me make the game - it's not just the figures nor the rules but also the tabletop that helps created the whole effect.
I can see WotR actually being good for terrain. This comes back to the feel of a RTS - the ability to use the housing, ruins and tree lines in a way that really shows up the units ability to hide or deep strike (whatever the term).
Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by josedominguez on Mar 8, 2009 3:27:32 GMT -9
Finally, it's come full circle. The cardstock modellers are now being elitist about all of that inferior sculpted crap In a weekend's work you can produce a fully coloured, detailed battlefield, dungeon etc... with all of the models to inhabit it. Maybe you can do that in a few months with painted minis. But you'll use those models over and over due to the investment. With card you can have a totally new set a week later. The predator took me an afternoon to paint. I can get an entire skirmish created in the same time with card. I'll never get the marine or SST model finished now. I can get the same tabletop impact with a craft knife in 20 minutes
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Post by onemonkeybeau on Mar 8, 2009 17:41:57 GMT -9
Preach it brother! Preach it!
onemonkeybeau
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Post by Aestelon on Mar 9, 2009 2:31:37 GMT -9
Right on. I do love painting miniatures, but I love painting individual miniatures. I get bored if I have to do too many figs almost the same, and for most armies, that's pretty much a necessity. I think the only playable armies I could ever consider having completed are a Necromunda Orlock gang and a 28mm scale converted Inquisitor warband.
Card miniatures? The Terra Force sets mean I've got several squads knocked up in a matter of days (on and off), as well as several Finger and Toe vehicles and some terrain.
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Post by josedominguez on Mar 10, 2009 7:35:57 GMT -9
I wish I was 12 now and discovering card stock models. Rather than back in 1984 and discovering lead minis. I'd probably have learned a real skill (I've discovered drawing too late dammit!) and saved so much time that I could have spent playing. Not to mention the memory loss from all of the lead I handled as a kid It's only a matter of time before one of the big gaming companies spots the potential and comes knocking at Jim's door.
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Post by josedominguez on Mar 15, 2009 0:25:29 GMT -9
I'm going to do the bases with a piece of black foam core covered with steel paper. I'll then use some of Jim's base texture and mark out circular cut outs. Once that's stuck down you've got a 5mm raised movement tray with cut outs for circualr bases (I base mine on magnetic sheet for weight, so they'll stick).
An army of the dead made up of Jim's Halloween figs will be stunning.
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Post by kane on Mar 16, 2009 18:19:21 GMT -9
Mocked up some quick infantry trays.
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Post by boromirandkermit on Apr 5, 2009 14:22:14 GMT -9
Well, I have bought the book and its awesome! Great articles and features, nice enough rules (not brilliant, but better than Warhammer Fantasy)
But as much as it is a cool book (and I'm glad I purchased it), the more I read it, the more I think to myself "I'm never going to play this game"
The reason why is the obscene number of minis required to play. If you want to field an Epic Hero - for example Boromir (175points), really need to play higher point games as they turn the tide so much. A Knight of Dol Amroth charge with Prince Imrahil at its front can knock out massive amounts of units - as can a Rohirrim charge.
A regular Minis Tirith formation is 25points... they are dealing with totals of 1500+ points. The scale is waaaaaay too much for 25mm, both in cost and painting.
I think if it was in 15mm it may be more realistic, but it should have been 10mm and an extension of Warmaster. I think after the hype has died for this game, people will still be languishing painting their armies.
I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see this being a possibility for me.
One of the scenarios pits 2,000 points of Ents (about 20 Ents) and Treebeard, Beechbone and Quickbeam against Sarumans orcs at Orthanc. Looks like a wicked battle, but to buy what's required for the Ent's side alone... well over $1000 and you'll never use that many Ents again...
So initial thoughts are wow - but unrealistic that I'll ever get enough models to play.
Ben.
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 5, 2009 17:24:55 GMT -9
Blimey, that does sound like a lot of figs. But what about if you scaled it down and used card minis?
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Post by josedominguez on Apr 7, 2009 14:37:58 GMT -9
I think that's the only way to play it. I've got the cash and can buy the minis with no problems. Unfortunately that's because I've got a job and don't have time to paint them. Catch 22. Anyone who can afford to play doesn't have the time Anyone notice that while you're a student/school kid you look forward to being able to buy all the models, then when you finally have the cash you just look back at when you had the time? I can't keep up with a painted mini game and I've got decent holidays. I think Jim's models at 15mm is the way to go.
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 7, 2009 16:41:41 GMT -9
Blow that, I'm unemployed and still couldn't find enough time to paint that much. You'd need to have a large savings account, no job to get in the way, and nothing else in your life. Or work for GW, (which may well entail the part in italics), whereby you still get paid, but get to paint and play at work.
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Post by tonsha on Apr 7, 2009 22:17:04 GMT -9
Blow that, I'm unemployed and still couldn't find enough time to paint that much. You'd need to have a large savings account, no job to get in the way, and nothing else in your life. Or work for GW, (which may well entail the part in italics), whereby you still get paid, but get to paint and play at work. Nail...Head...(Ouch! that was my head!!) ;D DaveA
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Post by stevelortz on Apr 8, 2009 3:54:44 GMT -9
Or work for GW, (which may well entail the part in italics), whereby you still get paid, but get to paint and play at work. Believe me, nothing can kill the fun quicker. And you know what I'm all about... Have fun! Steve
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 8, 2009 4:02:47 GMT -9
Or work for GW, (which may well entail the part in italics), whereby you still get paid, but get to paint and play at work. Believe me, nothing can kill the fun quicker. And you know what I'm all about... Have fun! Steve Indeed. I've never worked for GW, but I did briefly do a work-at-home job painting ceramic ornaments. It took less than two weeks to leech the fun out of painting at all. There was absolutely no creativity involved either, which was even worse (making the house stink of turps didn't help, either. ) The first warning actually came when I first went to check the place out. One employee told me that she used to enjoy painting models...
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Post by josedominguez on Apr 18, 2009 8:38:14 GMT -9
But everyone in GW always seems so enthusiastic and happy! A bit like the Hitler Youth. Just to inject some life into this topic (as I loved warmaster), I'm working on a few of the others too
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Post by josedominguez on May 4, 2009 3:42:34 GMT -9
Just got my rulebook and I'm very impressed, but really needs to be played at 15mm with card figures. Anyone else still interested in this?
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Post by Floyd on May 4, 2009 4:23:34 GMT -9
a table that can tell a story on it's own let alone once the battle is done. Sorry but it's just one of those things that for me make the game - it's not just the figures nor the rules but also the tabletop that helps created the whole effect. I can see WotR actually being good for terrain. This comes back to the feel of a RTS - the ability to use the housing, ruins and tree lines in a way that really shows up the units ability to hide or deep strike (whatever the term). I am all about the aesthetical when it comes to table top games. So I am right there with you. A deep immersive set of terrain will have me that much more immersed in the game. Having me invest in the action, character & story at hand. Rather than it simply (only) being an mathematical, tactical exercise. Or he whom spends the most money wins. Is what gaming is all about for me. (Not that I don't mind the tactical challenge). But I am not in it to win it... I am in it for the experience. ~F
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Post by josedominguez on May 4, 2009 7:30:10 GMT -9
If it's not for the aesthetic, then why did we bother moving on from chess?
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Post by kane on Jun 15, 2009 10:34:13 GMT -9
Been posting this everywhere else, so thought I'd share here, too. I have been working on breaking down the point system for WotR and after several false starts and much heartbreak, have just about nailed it. At least for Common Infantry. I should have the final few units done tonight at which point I will be posting it to the GW_LOTR Yahoo group. If anyone but would rather not join the group, just let me know and I'll be happy to e-mail it to you!
With that said, back to the case in point, Jim's miniatures! Once I have the breakdown set, we can start talking about new special abilities not covered in the rules or army abilities not covered in the rules. Any and all input is more than welcome!
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