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Post by squirmydad on Feb 2, 2017 20:51:15 GMT -9
Wow, what a drama! Basically, I'm totally d'accord with the PDFs are better than printed sets sentiment. However, when you are a designer participating in the conventions circus, you will need to produce sets, so you have something to present and sell, since – as has been stated above – customers won't buy PDFs in retail... Anecdotal, but having done the convention scene a few times, I sold quite a few DVDs full of my PDFs, but the pre-printed sheets and the pre-cut minis were mostly shelf warmers. My convention experience was about equal amounts of both dvd's and pre-prints selling. My profit margins on dvd collections were much better though and took up less space in my booth.
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Post by oldschooldm on Feb 2, 2017 22:06:05 GMT -9
I only speak for myself. I stopped buying P's minis when he dropped the black border. I'm not telling anyone what to do, but when you go physical you have to set limits to control manufacturing and inventory. That's just the facts. By definition that limits your market (even IF there are people who would never print/glue their own...)
PDFs have layers. PDFs can be recolored. PDFs can be rescaled (anyone been tracking how I scaled LOTS of stuff up for Giants?)
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shep
Eternal Member
Red Alert! Shields up! LENS FLARE!!!
Posts: 1,260
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Post by shep on Feb 3, 2017 0:16:19 GMT -9
Anecdotal, but having done the convention scene a few times, I sold quite a few DVDs full of my PDFs, but the pre-printed sheets and the pre-cut minis were mostly shelf warmers. Interesting, really interesting… One of the publishers whom I've written adventure modules/flyers for sells the "Master Survival Pack" a series of books (in printout-ringbook-style) with maps, adventure hooks and other tools for GMs. As far as I know, people buy either the books or the book/dvd bundles, but not (so much) the individual dvds. Could be that the customers on this side of the ocean too have not yet fully arrived in the 21st century. Then again, Europe's supposed to be the "Old World", isn't it!
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Post by radoslawkamil on Feb 3, 2017 7:33:08 GMT -9
Something not in a topic. I see that in this thred is actually everyone active in this forum. That is not happy news. I was read all post from last year and many older and what happend here? There was many many no longer active members for some reasons. I ask myself how I find this place and now I know why. Is very hard to find this forum. I was looking for some paper models to make, and accidently find link to Mel Ebbles site, and then find this forum. But to find Chris site is not easy too. That not explain why old members go away but give my idea why there are no more new ones.
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Post by whisper31 on Feb 3, 2017 8:02:18 GMT -9
I think I may toss in my tuppence here as well. For me, the biggest draw to PDF's vs Physical Models, is that having vision on only one side, it is very difficult for me to paint PM's, couple that with the fact that I can't draw a stick figure wth a compass and a ruler, but I am used to working with 2d, I can do much better work with PDF's than with what I can produce with paint and brush (was a 40k fanatic for a while and that showed me what I am incapable of doing). So, having someone create artwork or accessories or what have you, that I am willing to drop a few dollars on you when I can, means so much that I am able to enjoy the hobby altogether. I really have no plans to go to a con to play for prizes with just paper figs, and I wouldn't want someone to show up at a con with nothing but paper figs. But for me, with my work schedule and family life, this is a fulfilling hobby and I do want to thank all of you wonderful artists and designers out there who can do what I cannot. I'll still try to buy what interests me, when the budget allows me to, so when I say that I have so-and-so's pdf minis, I am happy to show off your work to others to try and get them interested in the hobby.
Hope this all makes sense. I've taken my medication and can't sleep due to a burnt-out water heater being fixed.
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 3, 2017 8:42:13 GMT -9
Makes perfect sense.
I think that paper does give a satisfaction that I haven't found in other media
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Post by vwilliams32407 on Feb 3, 2017 22:05:25 GMT -9
I think papercraft publishers should push the "it's faster than painting minis and looks better than prepainted plastic minis" line at least for minis. For terrain, it's still hard for me to see any alternative as flexible as papercraft and papercraft terrain looks so good. Paper can essentially do any terrain. For example, you can make cliffs with paper terrain and they fold flat. Are people really going to buy plastic cliffs or 3-D print them or make a mold of them? And can you get different skins/layers to make your cliff look like it's winter or a desert locale? We need to get oldschooldm and vwilliams32407 more publicity to really show how awesome papercraft can be. Hey oldschooldm have you thought about starting a Youtube channel? You could be the DM Scotty of Papercraft. Thanks for the shout out nolabert. I have a few slide shows of a couple past adventures on youtube. They’re not fancy or about the crafting process. I found it easier to share pictures with my players that way, Here is a link if you’re interested. www.youtube.com/user/vwilliams32407
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Post by Christopher Roe on Feb 6, 2017 10:34:20 GMT -9
Something not in a topic. I see that in this thred is actually everyone active in this forum. That is not happy news. I was read all post from last year and many older and what happend here? There was many many no longer active members for some reasons. I ask myself how I find this place and now I know why. Is very hard to find this forum. I was looking for some paper models to make, and accidently find link to Mel Ebbles site, and then find this forum. But to find Chris site is not easy too. That not explain why old members go away but give my idea why there are no more new ones. Yep, agreed. Many people don't even know this hobby exists, and a lot of people who know it exists don't know where to get started. It's mostly something that people discover by accident or while looking for something else. No idea where most of the 2000+ users wandered off to. I think maybe a lot of them prefer to read instead of post, or maybe they found the forum somewhat dead/boring and stopped visiting. I know I've read elsewhere that a number of folks think Cardboard Warriors is mostly publishers posting news about their own work.
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 6, 2017 11:23:42 GMT -9
Something not in a topic. I see that in this thred is actually everyone active in this forum. That is not happy news. I was read all post from last year and many older and what happend here? There was many many no longer active members for some reasons. I ask myself how I find this place and now I know why. Is very hard to find this forum. I was looking for some paper models to make, and accidently find link to Mel Ebbles site, and then find this forum. But to find Chris site is not easy too. That not explain why old members go away but give my idea why there are no more new ones. Yep, agreed. Many people don't even know this hobby exists, and a lot of people who know it exists don't know where to get started. It's mostly something that people discover by accident or while looking for something else. No idea where most of the 2000+ users wandered off to. I think maybe a lot of them prefer to read instead of post, or maybe they found the forum somewhat dead/boring and stopped visiting. I know I've read elsewhere that a number of folks think Cardboard Warriors is mostly publishers posting news about their own work. There are periods when it seems like most of the posts are publishers talking about what they are up to next. That's one reason I try to post free links of things that don't come from the publishers that call this place home. I also push the Hoards, which rarely have submissions from the Publishers. And periodically I start an appreciation thread for showcasing builds of a publishers work. I wish we had more gaming shots of terrain and figures in use. Some of the folks get tied up with real life and no longer have time for this hobby (or at least posting about it). Some of them felt badgered by other members to produce things that didn't interest them. Some disappeared from the internet all together and we will never know why. And some just found other interests. I was surprised at another forum when one of the mysteriously disappeared members showed up again. He's been making costumes and equipment for the folks that do historical reenactments. And then there are the folks with health issues. They can't see to build or design or it hurts too much to try to cut and fold, or they have tremors. And then there's the problem of just being internet-based. Like in most social media, we always want to put on our best face and shine. When things aren't going great (or even disastrously), we shy away from posting. There was an interesting study on the high correlation of Facebook use and clinical depression. When you see how well designing goes for some, and yours isn't going as well, it's depressing. Also, some things meant as a joke can hurt people's feelings. I think we are open to all skill levels and what goals folks have. We generally don't have any wars going on, but we can always do better
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Post by radoslawkamil on Feb 6, 2017 14:34:41 GMT -9
I here all that. I was suprise that many publishers and people I know just from Copyrights in things I build is actually here In person! I dont play board games, dont have people to play with. But I like paper models and paper miniatures. It strange it was easeier to find japan sites with some models than this one do. Will be intresting see how this games and minis actually work and being use so 'gaming shots' are easy to make and can help other strays like my get intrested:) There is one other things: people just dont do this any more :/ I dont know personally anyone who will be makeing paper models or miniatures or games. People I know react like I am crazy or strange when I tell them what I do and show my work I think they are crazy if they dont have any hobby more than drinking and watching tv but I cant tell that to them I find many people makeing paper models in internet so it was good to know I am not alone Anyway. Publishers posting what they will do or what they actually selling is not bad thing. (strange to say:'they' if most of You are publishers lol) Most people here are intrested in what they offer. Magic word: free is what most looking for is other thing. Forum Hoard, free links, links to other sites that expand some horizonts:) Even if this forum will be most about publishers posting what they up to where are they? Cant believe is only 20 publisghers in web lol. Well I will be just happy to find this forum but sadly I will not publish any miniature unless I see so much of them that I start to paint them in my dreems lol I am left handed so according to science I schoud have some artistic talent. Maybe I dont discover it yet lol. PS: My avatar is my photo when I play a model( that an rpg You never know) My wife was photographer.So I think she have all the gifts.
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Post by bravesirkevin on Feb 6, 2017 14:53:46 GMT -9
I'd say this forum is pretty active, considering... there are about 50 members that visit every day and we do actually have quite a few folks signing up to the forum. Maybe 5 to 10 a week. It's certainly more active than the facebook group, though a lot of folks who used to post regularly here have taken to just using that instead.
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Post by radoslawkamil on Feb 6, 2017 15:18:29 GMT -9
I see less active places for sure. Many blogs,fb account,even official pages are abandon in internet. That is props of www. No one care if you gone or still there but everything you do will be remembered. I was think about talk active members, there are not that many. But not everyone have to be so noise like I am lol Edit: Just find there are forum statictics lol. People are busy or shy I think
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Post by mesper on Feb 6, 2017 17:32:40 GMT -9
I see less active places for sure. Many blogs,fb account,even official pages are abandon in internet. That is props of www. No one care if you gone or still there but everything you do will be remembered. I was think about talk active members, there are not that many. But not everyone have to be so noise like I am lol Edit: Just find there are forum statictics lol. People are busy or shy I think OK, but (stats/complaints etc. apart)... any ideas what/how to improve Well, obviously more social-media activities would be appreciated and helpful (like active FB fan-page, Twitter messages about new entries, new freebies, new/released hoards, even reminders/deadlines, info regarding new/fancy posted users galleries etc., than some pics posted via Insta/Snap etc.) BUT... all it takes really a lot of time and work, and there is no benefits/salary here at hobby-oriented forum/website - folks like squirmydad , Vermin King , mproteau (Paper Realms) - just to name a few, are devoting their free time and effort just to keep forum running, being friendly place for both old and new users. Members like bravesirkevin , lightning , okumarts , madmanmike , chiefasaur (again just to name a few CWF members that comes firstly into my mind while writing) are posting some free stuff, pics, how-to draw/colour, posting assembling or game-sessions reports, many members and users like Rhannon , wyvern or oldschooldm are frequently taking part in discussions, helping/answering questions, providing some modding tips or useful reference links etc. IMHO what we have here is quite friendly, devoted and commited community, albeit rather niche and small one:) Still, things could be (as usual) better - so, quoting the classics, maybe the questions should be " What YOU can do for CWF" ?
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Post by chiefasaur on Feb 6, 2017 18:22:53 GMT -9
I think this discussion is swinging into the territory of the "Is Papercraft Dead" thread, but mesper has tagged me! And invoked my opinion! Either way. if this forum organically becomes a small community of crafters, then that's what it becomes. All newcomers are welcomed and accepted, but it's their responsibility to participate. If you're concerned about this forum, and papercraft as a hobby evaporating, then promote it. I get messages pretty regularly on my various social feeds from people who were unaware that card figures existed as an affordable alternative. I've introduced and converted gamers to using paper tokens, and I've only been publishing since June, and the stuff I publish only really intended for the already niche world of tabletop gaming. Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, Instagram are tools, easy tools. Tools you can use while pooping. These tools make us all ambassadors of papercraft. Congrats! Also, coloring books blew up a few years ago, maybe we could make gluing bits of printed cardstock together the next cool, hip thing
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Post by lightning on Feb 7, 2017 1:22:11 GMT -9
WOW! What a great thread. Love how everybody is contributing. It has grown to include so many topics that I can only add the few things I want to say.
1. I love this community because (with pauses) this has been my virtual paper crafting heart home for over 10 years. I don't care how small this forum appears to be. It will always be very special to me.
2. PDF vs physical prints: for me living in Austria, Europe I have no idea how to feasibly sell physical prints in the US. I would have to print and assemble local and then add huge shipping costs. Or have someone do the local work in the US and have no chance to see how the quality of the final product is. So for that reason I can only go the PDF route for now.
3. Is paper crafting dead? It might not be main stream, that's for sure. But in this age and with this technology we are able to connect with clients like never before all over the planet. I strongly believe that with ANY product, if you put your love and sweat into your product AND stay in the market long enough to allow for a fan base to grow you should have some success. Also with all the virtual stuff going on I believe that there is a growing need for physical stuff. People enjoy having something in their hands (books, toys, ...) vs just virtual consummation of goods.
4. Income viability: I also experience as others have said here, that selling your paper craft is like having a larger first income wave at release of something new and then a trickle of income after that so you need to have a certain number of products out there before your little creek turns into a big river of income that is able to support you. So make sure you long enough breath for that period. I don't have any experience with selling physical products yet. I am hoping to go there some day too.
5. Piracy: There will always be people who steal. I have had discussions with grown men who cannot see that taking something they have no right to (like downloading movies on the internet just because you can) is theft. They argued that they have a right to culture products or something in that alley?!? What can I do about? Nothing. It is their karma. I believe in focusing on building a strong relationship with people willing to exchange money for value.
I also believe in practicing generosity in general. What you sow you will reap. Almost any major religion or philosophy hints at this being a good thing and it is kind of a physical law (reflection). What you send will be reflected back. Sometimes sooner, sometimes later, but it all comes back. Will be turning 50 this year so I have some experience to back this up :-) And it works with loving thoughts too (if you have no physical things or money to share). Think about it! If you sow barley and you want to harvest wheat you will have a problem :-) So make sure you sow the things/actions you want to harvest!!!
OK, end of my mind-dump :-)
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Post by radoslawkamil on Feb 7, 2017 2:39:59 GMT -9
I will read this all later with more time. I am here and make fun:) I have few other places I post my work, not all is here. I am now sad because I broke all my knifes blades and I need to stop cutting minis and that make me depresses lol
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 7, 2017 5:35:53 GMT -9
I will read this all later with more time. I am here and make fun:) I have few other places I post my work, not all is here. I am now sad because I broke all my knifes blades and I need to stop cutting minis and that make me depresses lol I use an Olfa knife with the snap-off blades. The two blade shapes are narrow-and-slim and snub-nosed. I switch out blades depending on what I am cutting. Breaking off points is either from applying too much pressure or from trying to do tight twists instead of making multiple cuts. Usually. They also have a tendency to break if the blade is getting dull. When I start to feel the blade pulling while I cut, I give a couple swipes of the blade on a sharpening steel that came with a cutlery set I was given years ago. I've used it more on hobby blades than cutlery. A steel smoothes out imperfections in the blade and maintains the sharp edge. The one I have came with a cheap set of kitchen knives, so I would have to say that you don't need an expensive one.
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Post by radoslawkamil on Feb 7, 2017 5:53:19 GMT -9
I have very same kitchen tool from knife set. I try sharpened olfa blades but they are to thin for that. I use designer olfa knife. Very small blades. Not expensive at all but not avaliable from any show I been only in internet. But for now I dont have money to order them eider way I stack with my hobby. I will try to make something useing scissiors. Have printed few models that can not require knife. About other things papercraft is not dead but a little forgotten. With all new shine plastic and metal around paper is push away. Also many people dont do anything handmade for many reasons and kids are learning computer games instead of board one. I play few computer games and understand why so many people go for that kind of intrest. I think by showing our work. Publishers or builders We all in some way make this hobby alive. Last night I tell my friend that I find great free papercraft and he was suprise that I am happy about it. He think if it just paper why someone will pay for it? Well it was hard to explain to him that he not pay for paper but for work behind it. To make a model is a lot of skills and long time work to make. And he said: but it is just paper. I was a little sad people think that way.
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Post by radoslawkamil on Feb 7, 2017 6:09:20 GMT -9
There was a lot about piracy and after conversation with my friend I think the reason why people piracy is because they ont understand the value of digital products. Its just paper. Is there so I take it. Why I have to pay for this? That what people need to learn from kid. But no one really learn that. My 12 year old dont know how to call son of my sister in english learn to play computer games since he was 5. In age 10 he actually can write on ceabord better that manually with pen. That a new generation. How to explain kids like that they have to pay for paper. I have no idea.
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 7, 2017 6:21:05 GMT -9
Kids who like video games like to be able to have something they can handle. My son didn't think much of this hobby until I started making him things from Halo and from movies.
You have to meet them where they are. If they like video games, there are lots of papermodels from the games
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Post by madmanmike on Feb 7, 2017 19:07:21 GMT -9
While I've been a freelancer in the gaming community for 20+ years and a gamer for 29, I've only been in this forum and community for a couple of years. I still enjoyed paper craft long before I discovered this place, and I'm sure I'm no exception in that regard. So to that end, there has to be more people out there who enjoy this hobby than are represented on the interwebs.
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Post by jeffgeorge on Feb 9, 2017 3:45:09 GMT -9
I use an Olfa knife with the snap-off blades. The two blade shapes are narrow-and-slim and snub-nosed. I switch out blades depending on what I am cutting. Breaking off points is either from applying too much pressure or from trying to do tight twists instead of making multiple cuts. Usually. They also have a tendency to break if the blade is getting dull. When I start to feel the blade pulling while I cut, I give a couple swipes of the blade on a sharpening steel that came with a cutlery set I was given years ago. I've used it more on hobby blades than cutlery. A steel smoothes out imperfections in the blade and maintains the sharp edge. The one I have came with a cheap set of kitchen knives, so I would have to say that you don't need an expensive one. This thread has certainly evolved from my original post while I was AFK for a few days. Great discussion! In particular, Vermin King's tip about using a kitchen knife sharpener to extend the life of hobby knife blades is brilliant! Maybe we should start a thread in the appropriate forum for people to share their tips for using non-obvious tools and materials to make their hobby easier or cheaper? That, by the way, is the exact sort of discussion that is useful to people who are new to the hobby, and will keep them interested in our community.
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Post by jeffgeorge on Feb 9, 2017 4:06:32 GMT -9
..if this forum organically becomes a small community of crafters, then that's what it becomes. All newcomers are welcomed and accepted, but it's their responsibility to participate. This is a well-made point. I haven't been a member of this community very long, but I felt at home very quickly. I've learned a ton from the expertise that was cheerfully shared by the existing membership--not just about paper gaming miniatures, but related topics like how to use tools like Scribus to make multi-layered PDFs and how to bind real books from the PDFs I've printed out. (5 perfect-bound books and counting...I really need to make a thread to share those...) As many of you will attest, I'm not shy, and I often don't carefully consider what I've typed before clicking Create Post, but I've found this community wonderfully open, tolerant, welcoming, supportive, and respectful. People here may have differing opinions on a given topic, but they don't let that lead them to being disrespectful or dismissive towards others who may not agree on this point or that. As long as newcomers accept and respect the existing culture of the CWF community, they are assimilated quickly, to whatever degree they choose. That's good advice for our entire lives, not just our hobbies--when you have a concern, take action! If you want our niche-within-a-niche of a hobby to expand, show people the cool things you've made. Get more gamers playing with your minis, and make it clear not only how cool they are to game with, but also how inexpensive, easy, convenient and fun they are to make. At this point in my life, during a middle-aged career transition, I don't have time to play face-to-face RPGs regularly, but I do drop in on Wednesday-night pickup sessions at our local game shop from time to time. When I do, I always bring my binder full of paper minis (which are stored in baseball-card-sleeve pages). People are always amazed and impressed at how I can carry a thousand or more miniatures in on two-inch-thick book, and are excited to page through it to find just the figure for their PC--and they always seem to find one that fits. Some of these people may become papercraft gamers some day...for all I know, they already are! That's how we can tell you're a great artist, chiefasaur ...because you can paint such a vivid and lasting picture in our minds with just a few keystrokes...
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Post by nolabert on Feb 17, 2017 7:47:50 GMT -9
Thanks for the shout out nolabert. I have a few slide shows of a couple past adventures on youtube. They’re not fancy or about the crafting process. I found it easier to share pictures with my players that way, Here is a link if you’re interested. www.youtube.com/user/vwilliams32407 The slide shows are awesome! But what I'm talking about is a Youtube channel with a host to promote papercraft. Like the DM's Craft, Drunkens & Dragons, Wyloch, Black Magic Craft, and Nerdarchy. I know Wyloch and Black Magic Craft have talked about paper minis (Black Magic Craft has a brand new video on paper vs. plastic minis). But I'm thinking a whole channel on papercraft. I know that is daunting from a time perspective. And I was thinking of you and oldschooldm because you guys have such extensive builds.
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Post by kgstanley81 on Feb 17, 2017 9:37:53 GMT -9
That would be great, or if someone could get ahold of them and maybe have them do a video, maybe a free set for them and a discount code for others that watched the video
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Post by nolabert on Feb 17, 2017 11:10:36 GMT -9
Well, wyloch, who is a member here, did do one video where he highlighted One Monk Minis. Hopefully that resulted in a bump at the OBS sites. Maybe that translated to sales for other publishers too. Black Magic Craft's new video does discuss the merits of paper vs. plastic minis but he makes his own like Wyloch's method using mirrored backs. I wish he talked more explicitly about published minis. Nerdarchy has talked about ArcKnight minis. And as far as I know none of those big RPG Youtube channels have talked about papercraft terrain. Here is Black Magic Craft's latest:
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Post by yifferman on Feb 20, 2017 12:02:04 GMT -9
Well i have both, because i like put my own character in a battle and its more easy draw it than model a figure, and i dont have a 3dprinter.
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Post by lightning on Feb 21, 2017 2:17:54 GMT -9
...Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, Instagram are tools, easy tools. Tools you can use while pooping. ... *ROFL* (I guess I skipped over that the first time) The new paper model marketing office! Made my day!
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 21, 2017 4:56:53 GMT -9
'I'm going to the office' has a new meaning
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Post by printableheroes on Feb 21, 2017 14:33:47 GMT -9
I'm way late to the party as usual, but I wanted to throw down a few bars on the subject, My PDFs are cheap and inexpensive, so you don’t have to be pensive, download them for a pittance or for free, and join a wonderful community. It’s really quite holistic, Cause everyone wants a treat, But let’s all be realistic, An artist’s got to eat. But seriously. PDFs and digital distribution make it possible for artists to in essence resell a PDF file infinitely. Which makes a myriad of things possible: - I can engage with a larger audience through cheap and/or free PDFs/content
- The larger my audience the more money I make
- The more money I make the more content I can create
- The more content the more points of engagement
- (repeat from the top)
Because each PDF I create is not tied to a physical/limited resource I can establish libraries of content which fundamentally shifts the dynamic from a product based interaction to a service based interaction. Like Netflix, Amazon, or Steam, I’m no longer selling a product, I’m providing a service; access to a library of content and the promise of regularly updating that content. Everything is “alive” now. Our phones, our computers, our games, nothing is ever “done”, whether through version updates, patches, content is now on-going. The communities we grow aren’t showing up for any one product, they’re showing up for the experience of _all of the products_ and for the promise of new products. What I love about this, what I find absolutely wonderful about this, is that it frees content creators from having to worry about selling a product and allows us to take the more holistic view of enriching a community. What is good for the community is good for us. Anything we can do to help a community grow – making content more accessible, listening to feedback, doing tutorials, boosting other creators that are growing the community – everything, it all comes back around. The more accessible the community, the larger it grows, and the larger it grows the more resources are available for content creators. And it’s all made possible because the digital distribution of PDFs unshackles the content creator from the burden/cost of physical (finite) content.
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