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Post by buckwiley on May 16, 2009 21:24:04 GMT -9
I'm brand new to the whole paper-mini hobby. I've been doing card stock modeling for about 4 or 5 months now and I just found One Monk from the Fat Dragon forums.
I bought the goblin set just to get my feet wet and give this a try. I printed out a few sheets figuring I'd make myself a good little horde and try them out at my next gaming session.
I don't know if I'm doing something wrong - but it took me FOREVER just to cut out one goblin. I'm talking like 15 or 20 minutes total to cut it out and edge it. Which in and of itself isn't that huge - but if you're going to do 10 or 15 that's a lot of man-hours. I definitely didn't expect it to take that long.
Is that normal? Does it just go faster once you get the hang of it, or am I missing something? I tried using scissors and using a hobby knife - they both had their advatages and disadvatages - neither one seemed clearly faster than the other.
Some beginner tutorials would really help. Thanks.
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Post by godofrandomness on May 17, 2009 0:13:52 GMT -9
I went from about 1 fig an hour (cutting out only) when I first started to about a sheet an hour (including outlining and basing) give or take (really depends on the sheet) after a bit of practice. It's like anything else; the more time invested, the better you become. With enough practice, you will probably learn that using the hobby knife will be faster and more precise. Overtime you will learn what the best method for you would be. I would also recommend trying out different styles of hobby knife blades. www.hobbyplace.com/tools/xknives.phpA lot of people here use the standard knife with the generic #11 blade, but I personally use the #16 and the #26 as I seem to break less points with these. Whichever blade you use, I recommend stocking up on spare blades and change them frequently or whenever you break a point. A sharper blade makes cutting quicker. |
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Post by abaddonwormwood on May 17, 2009 4:07:43 GMT -9
Avg. Fig = 8minutes
A mounted fig = 15min (about 2 times the avg. fig in size)
Yes it seems to take forever but just think where you would be with a primed figure and 8 minutes to paint it - good.
You will get faster as you start to understand how to get the best from your tools and what the figure's shape wants you to do.
Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by tugunmojo on May 17, 2009 5:04:27 GMT -9
One question for you buckwiley: are you cutting out the model before or after you fold and glue it? A similar question came up in another forum. We found out later that the person was cutting the model completely out, then folding--in essence, was cutting it out "twice." When I cut out Jim's minis, I score, fold, and glue a strip together. After it dries, I seperate each mini. Then I cut each one out, always cutting from the front of the model--you'll notice that Jim puts a slightly thicker black line around the backside of each model just for this reason. Unless there are a lot of nooks & crannies, I average 3.5-4 minutes on infantry-type models. Hopefully, the picture below illustates what I'm saying better. BTW, I always use an knife. I might use sissors to cut out a circle, but otherwise it will always be with a knife.  |
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Post by Aestelon on May 17, 2009 5:12:37 GMT -9
Excellent summary, Mojo! I was just puzzling how best to do a tutorial, and you've pretty much summed it up in one photo! ;D For myself, I use a scalpel to cut out, with a 10A blade, and do any scoring by running the back of the blade along the line. Aside from that, my system is exactly the same. Also, since I adhere to flat basing, I remove the tabs from the feet. Note that if you do this, it's best to remove the tab early on in the cutting process, as it's very difficult to keep the fig still enough to cut straight if you leave it till the end. |
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Post by squirmydad on May 17, 2009 6:53:46 GMT -9
A complete builders guide is on my to do list.
Like everyone else has mentioned, practice will improve your speed. I can now cut a full sheet of figures in about a half hour, and I have made everything I have designed.
One key is to work in quick short cuts, a constant supply of fresh blades as they break or dull, using a thinner card stock will help a lot too, 65# 110Gram card is perfect for the figures, or light weight matte photo paper.
Use a good cutting surface like a self healing cutting matt.
Have good light, I but in front of a window during the day so I can clearly see what I'm doing.
Try trimming the figures with scissors to about a quarter inch from the black edge.
I have found a quick method for edging. Lay the cut figure flat, and use a flexible brush tip marker, then follow the outside of the all the cuts. The flexible tip with a nice point will allow you to easily get into the tight corners. This only takes about 30 seconds, then pick the figure up and touchup any missed spots.
Like I said, I really need to do a comprehensive tutorial, but I am really fixated on getting 100 figure sets complete first. Then I'll take some time out to do tutorials, terrain building, more free prop sets, more base designs, and start working on the print and play BattleMasters game.
JIM
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Post by buckwiley on May 17, 2009 7:34:51 GMT -9
Thanks for the hints, guys.
Mojo > thanks for the photo - actually that is one mistake I quickly figured out. I began to cut the first figure out before I folded the sheet and I thought, "what if these don't match up?" So I stopped and folded and glued the sheet before cutting the rest.
It sounds like it might help if I go to a lighter cardstock (I used the #110lb that I use for my terrain models...) and work with sharper blades. And like anyhting else - practice will help too.
Thanks again guys!
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Post by Aestelon on May 17, 2009 7:57:39 GMT -9
Sharp blades are a must, but the 110lb cardstock you're using should be absolutely fine - that's the weight I use, and I have no trouble cutting through it.
For the fine cuts and deep corners, I find the easiest way is to start in the corners and press down through the card with the tip of my scalpel, then draw it back.
For really thin pieces that you risk bending if you pull the blade with any pressure, I use a series of gentle stabs, pressing down through the card, then releasing the pressure, drawing back a couple of millimetres, then stabbing again.
You probably know this already, but a cutting mat is incredibly handy too, and saves you a ton of blades.
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Post by godofrandomness on May 17, 2009 15:50:04 GMT -9
I too second the 110lb cardstock, as the wal-mart stuff is the cheapest available (at least here in so cal).
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Post by kane on May 18, 2009 6:25:09 GMT -9
I always use matte photo paper for my paper minis. If your using an inkjet, the output quality is just massively better. As for cutting, I break tips so much, if I changed blades every time one broke, I'd only get 3-5 models done per blade. Just have to lower the tip down so the sharp edge does most of the work. I have often sandwiched a single layer of cardstock in the photo paper too for extra support. Its VERY stiff when built that way what with two layers of paper, one of cardstock and two layers of glue!
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Post by onemonkeybeau on May 18, 2009 6:41:10 GMT -9
Yup, Canon Matte Photo paper is the only thing I use now... unless I'm doing a quick test build or something like that. The Matte paper is a bit thinner at 45lbs but surprizingly sturdy when glued together.
And yeah, I break tips A LOT, and what Kane says is right on...
Tugunmojo hit the nail on the head with that photo and that is how I do everything... as for edging, Jim described the way I do it. laying the model flat and then tracing around the edges. After that's done, a quick spot check and you're done! Edging makes such a HUGE difference. If you're not doing it... you should be.
buckwiley, cutting out models is definitely an acquired skill. The more you do the quick you'll get.
One thing that helped me in the early years was when I discovered that I didn't have to cut out every little nook and cranny. I used to meticulously cut the smallest details out, until one day I figured out that this was unnecessary. I began to look at the model as a bunch of short angled lines. Always looking for the easiest and quickest way to cut out the whitespace. After a few figs I got the hang of it and now I can cut out a whole sheet in about half an hour without sacrificing quality.
The key and saving grace is edging. Jim's figs have a nice black border surrounding the whole fig. Use this to your advantage and fudge a little... it won't show because it will end up blending in with the black border. I'll often cut into the border a little to make a tricky cut easier. The black border hides the fact you didn't perform an x-acto knife miracle and you're on to your next model.
The best way to cut out those really tight whitespaces that you usually find between the body and a bent arm is to figure out the general shape of the whitespace... usually a triangle or a square (and if it's not I'd make it one). Then stab down one edge, cutting just a little beyond where you should stop. Do this around the whole shape and the whitespace will fall out. The black border will hide any long cuts you made. It's like magic!
Hope this helps... main thing to remember is, you don't have to cut out every nook and cranny.
onemonkeybeau
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Post by Aestelon on May 18, 2009 7:12:10 GMT -9
I do have one question to those of you who use matte photo paper. I'm having a go at using it to make 15mm figs (a 6x4 sheet of photo paper is exactly the right size to accomodate an A4 sheet at half size).
But I'm having trouble with gluing. The photo paper is nowhere near as porous as my normal cardstock, so my PVA just doesn't grip, and I need an alternative adhesive. I've heard mention of Aleene's tacky glue being used, but that's not available over here - does anybody have any more widely-available alternatives?
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Post by luckyjoe on May 18, 2009 7:31:18 GMT -9
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Post by tugunmojo on May 18, 2009 7:34:11 GMT -9
I use a glue stick--so far, its worked with the photo paper that I've used in the past. I use them for all my builds because the is very little water content and I do not have warping issues.
Besides they're cheap--especially when the back-to-school season kicks in around here (late July/early August). I can get them for 10 cents a piece!
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Post by Aestelon on May 18, 2009 7:46:01 GMT -9
Thanks for the tips. I don't think I've seen the glue sticks before, but then I haven't looked for them.  I'll have to have a look next time I'm going near Staples. |
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Post by godofrandomness on May 18, 2009 18:18:22 GMT -9
I do have one question to those of you who use matte photo paper. I'm having a go at using it to make 15mm figs (a 6x4 sheet of photo paper is exactly the right size to accomodate an A4 sheet at half size). But I'm having trouble with gluing. The photo paper is nowhere near as porous as my normal cardstock, so my PVA just doesn't grip, and I need an alternative adhesive. I've heard mention of Aleene's tacky glue being used, but that's not available over here - does anybody have any more widely-available alternatives? Glueing is the second reason why I dont mess too much with photo paper (first is cost; the slightly higher cost for the paper and the larger amount of ink required adds up pretty quick). For some reason the glue pens I use didnt hold the different photo papers I tried out didn't hold very well. That could have just been me though. |
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Post by luckyjoe on May 19, 2009 4:52:12 GMT -9
One other thing to add to a tutorial is pressing the minis while waiting for them to dry, and as was mentioned, allowing adequate dry time. I usually do the scoring and gluing of a line of figures and then press them under a heavy book overnight. Perhaps the combination of pressing and allowing more time for drying can improve any glue's performance. I don't know for certain, but I generally don't have much problem with glue not adhering. Anybody else press the minis and give them a long time to dry?
Luckyjoe
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Post by anvil242 on May 19, 2009 5:21:38 GMT -9
I use a thin coat of good ol' Elmers (PVA) and press overnight. Sometimes longer, depending on general level of distraction. One thing about cutting them out. While you are cutting out your horde they are the most intricate things to look at. Once they are on the table they are much more...um, mundane. Don't sweat the fiddly stuff. I have printed out 1 sheet of each of the hybrid aliens, a mere 13 total figures, but on the table, they are a spiky, vicious, nasty looking bunch and I didn't spend very much time cutting them out at all.
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Post by abaddonwormwood on May 19, 2009 5:32:00 GMT -9
I always place them under my cutting board or between the last and second last cork placemat in a draw for about 12hrs. This gives them time to set up and dry out, allowing them to cut cleaner. If your figs are still wet or damp (cold to touch) then you are more likely to rip the figure than cut it.
If I am doing a lot of figures at once I layer up with baking parchment.
Lord Abaddon of Wormwood
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Post by onemonkeybeau on May 19, 2009 6:41:59 GMT -9
This is interesting... I don't wait very long at all. I start cutting usually around 5 minutes after I glue. I do put them under my cutting mat for that 5 mins though. I use UHU glue pens sparingly which sets up quite quick. I also burnish (rub) the heck out of glued parts which helps with the glue set-up. I have not had any problems with Matte Photo Paper not holding when glued. <side note> I learned a long time ago to put a spare piece of cardstock over the piece I'm burnishing so as not to smear the ink or leave fingerprints all over it. </side note> I'm in the process of making a tutorial video on how I do things... look for it as soon as I can get it edited  onemonkeybeau |
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Post by tugunmojo on May 19, 2009 14:24:27 GMT -9
I let mine sit for a while before cutting them. I only use a stack of books (or something similar) if I'm cutting out large pieces (such as a building). But if you try to cut too soon, it can cause problems. One reason I use glue sticks (elmers--purple, dries clear) is the low water content. Dries quick, no warping
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Post by godofrandomness on May 20, 2009 8:31:42 GMT -9
I let mine sit for a while before cutting them. I only use a stack of books (or something similar) if I'm cutting out large pieces (such as a building). But if you try to cut too soon, it can cause problems. One reason I use glue sticks (elmers--purple, dries clear) is the low water content. Dries quick, no warping I guess the warping depends on the brand of glue stick. WHen I started cutting out figs, I was using the Michael's generic brand gluestick, and it seemed to warp like crazy if I didn't get the model glued and under something quickly; though I admit I was inexperienced and was probably using way too much glue. |
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Post by squirmydad on May 20, 2009 11:12:02 GMT -9
I think I would drive some of you nuts, I use a glue stick, but start cutting them right after I fold them up, they are even a little squishy as I'm cutting them. I've gotten an average sheet of figures down to 15 minutes. And they turn out fine, they are the ones I photograph for the store!
It's all about practice and getting use to cutting the inside corners. of coarse I change blades now after two pages of figures. But at 5 cents a blade, who cares?
JIM
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Post by old squirmydad on May 20, 2009 11:25:30 GMT -9
Canon Matte photo paper for figures; bright, strong, and yet soft like butter when cutting.
Glue stick to hold them all together. I usually glue up a whole bunch of figures (3-4 pages worth) at a time so I get an assembly line going. I don't consciously give them a drying time, I just burnish them really hard and set them aside while I'm working on the next batch. If I wind up with any little floppy bits that didn't get quite enough glue I shove a dab of Aleene's tacky glue in and pinch it shut.
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Post by onemonkeybeau on May 20, 2009 11:36:34 GMT -9
Yup, I figure, "why wait?" when the end product looks just as good as if I'd waited overnight.
Eric, what glue stick are you using?
onemonkeybeau
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Post by old squirmydad on May 20, 2009 14:08:46 GMT -9
Yup, I figure, "why wait?" when the end product looks just as good as if I'd waited overnight. Eric, what glue stick are you using? onemonkeybeau I like to use the Scotch purple gluestick (dries clear) so I can see where the glue is going as I'm applying it. I like having a pile of glued figures to work on at hand as sometimes in my job my ears are needed more than my eyes so I keep my hands and eyes busy trimming out figures while my ears stay tuned for feedback and vocal balance. |
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Post by godofrandomness on May 21, 2009 0:54:16 GMT -9
I've done both the "cut right away" and "wait til dry approach." It doesn't seem to make too much a difference for me. However since I have been doing cutting at several different places, I currently tend to glue stuff together way ahead of time so I can just cut wherever I go. I do have a few things that have had several months to dry because fo this...  |
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Post by kricket on Jun 16, 2009 12:20:30 GMT -9
Hi everyone,
I'm very new to this stuff, cuttting out my first set of bases now after picking up some supplies from the local craft store. (X-acto #11, extra blades, cutting mat, glue sticks)
Quick question about cutting - I'm using Matte photo paper as suggested above (61 lb). I'm finding it difficult to cut through the paper once it's doubled/glued together.
Should I be cutting all the way through on one stroke? (pressing harder) Should I cut, then cut again within the same groove? Cut one side, flip, cut the other?
Do I only use the tip or should I try and use more of the edge of the blade when possible?
Any tips/tricks for cutting curves?
Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks!
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Post by Dagger on Jun 16, 2009 12:28:58 GMT -9
I use 110lb card stock and cut through in one slice... I use the stab and pull method... stab the tip into a corner and then pull the blade along the line I want to cut...
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Post by kricket on Jun 16, 2009 12:40:59 GMT -9
I use 110lb card stock and cut through in one slice... I use the stab and pull method... stab the tip into a corner and then pull the blade along the line I want to cut... Ok, I'll try that then, thanks! |
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I'll have to have a look next time I'm going near Staples.
