Post by Vermin King on Mar 9, 2011 17:40:49 GMT -9
I can see that now. A convention or tournament where anyone can participate, but all their terrain, vehicles, weaponry and figures have to fit in a 2.5 inch X 8.75 inch X 17.25 inch box like you'd get legal sized file folders in.
You know that the best tables would sport paper figures and props. You might have to build some things there, but if you had them all cut out, it would still work.
Okay, it probably wouldn't fly, but it is a cool thought.
There are no strangers in this world,only people I haven't embarrassed ... yet!
Post by josedominguez on Mar 10, 2011 9:05:06 GMT -9
THe last two ideas could be combined..... verminking and gillius. Run a skirmish level tournament, use something like Song of blades and heroes. Generate warbands first thing..... print and create 5 or six minis then play for the rest of the day. Every player takes his warband home.
Sell CDs/pre-prints at the door at a range of scales. Get Dave's games involved and have all of the scenery pre-printed. Sell that too.
All you would need is a couple of tables a PC and a printer.
Post by Vermin King on Mar 10, 2011 14:18:51 GMT -9
Since I'm probably the least Gaming-Oriented person here these days ( I only get together with my gaming friends a couple times a year), other forum members would be better reference for areas that might be open to that idea.
Come as You Are, Have a Great Time, Leave with Great Stuff
I would think that it could open a lot of eyes
There are no strangers in this world,only people I haven't embarrassed ... yet!
Post by stephengroy on Mar 10, 2011 20:39:55 GMT -9
Well, just remember that the internet business model is reverse of the real world business plan -- 90% of the product is free online, and 10% of the rest is what folks like me will pay for.
Also, I don't get to game very much, but still love the quick and clean models like Paladin's Holodancer otyugh looking thing. I fit six on a standard sheet of photopaper. Dunno how long it'll take to build them.
Also, I believe horror is under-represented. When's the last time anyone saw a paper werewolf?
Post by cowboyleland on Mar 10, 2011 21:14:24 GMT -9
Paper werewolf in revguns "western minis NOt . . ." thread. Check the Western Ghost file. There is also a 2.5d werewolf on my flickr page. I think I figured out how to upgrade him so maybe don't download right away. Oh yeah, undead are everywhere, Darkmook is a specialist. What horror do you think has been missed?
On the other hand, maybe it's the herd that is crazy.
Post by stephengroy on Mar 11, 2011 6:47:46 GMT -9
Now don't get me wrong; I love Darkmook, and own all that stuff. Heck, I pushed to get the backdrop included. You gotta admit tho that Lovecraftian horror, 'classic' werewolves, and even non-Warhammer-esque vampires is scarce.
So you are transferring horror+sex to this thread ...
@stephen, if you are confident, that you can handle the microscale holoprojectors, then you should build one unit in 20 to 30 min. My testbuild in the pic is only a B/W laserprint, so I made the pics B/W too. That adds to the atmosphere, that is not too much appreciated here by others ;D.
Vermin King, one pic shows, what could happen, if your Special Force is not aware of the surroundings ... .
jose, sex could sell, if it follows some rules : 1. Only show sex, if it's supporting storytelling or character (e.g. Cimmerian Slave Girls, sadistic Drow-Princess, the infamous AD&D Tavern Prostitute etc.). 2. Never show sex for its own sake (aka chainmail-bikini-syndrome), cause this gets annoying and boring quickly - or even distasteful as cowboyleland correctly termed it. Of course, you could feel, that Slave Girls are distasteful anyway, but then the whole genre of e.g. Heroic Fantasy is it.
Post by josedominguez on Mar 12, 2011 2:38:28 GMT -9
The chainmail bikini thing never bothered me.... that whole 'it's not very realistic' argument is a little redundant in fantasy art. I don't get bored with it, it just kind of fades into the background. I've yet to see a paper mini that had more graphic content than your average perfume advert. Look at the Linx deodorant adverts for an excellent example of distasteful. I don't think the nudity thing is a problem, there are rules to adhere to here which make it a relatively safe place for kids. The argument over whether nudity or violence is more damaging isn't really an argument. It's violence, but for some reason our culture has evolved to the point where horrific, violent images are somehow less of a problem that a hint of nipple or a navel. But them's the rules I bet Darkmook would get more complaints about his cheerleader than his Hodder blood dripping machette wielding maniac.
Anyway, back to the point..... Paizo do a good range of paper minis that directly support their pathfinder modules. As Bellicose takes off, the purpose made minis will be a big selling point. One issue I have when looking for paper minis on RPG now etc... is the difficulty in actually finding them, they are scattered in lots of categories. THe idea of having everything in one place really appeals. One other suggestion would be to maybe tweak some of the sets to increase their compatibility with certain other games..... hero, leader, standard bearer and musicians for WFB. THe human models so far cover most of the empire infantry, not many others needed (flagellants and halberds I think). Appeal to as many game systems as possible (Jim's Elves and undead do a good job on those armies.... modding the dark riders to have lances was a quick fix to add another option).
Post by josedominguez on Mar 12, 2011 5:02:03 GMT -9
Another idea..... lots of modders out there. Why don't we get more of a group effort going to increase available minis? I can mod what I want for personal use, but a well done mod could indeed be sold on by the publisher (maybe the modder gets a modest thankyou). I mod for my own group, just like I convert 3D figures. I wouldn't make my mods freely available as they aren't my own work.... is there a middle ground? More mods, more figure sets, more people buying.
Mine are quick and dirty mods, not up to a saleable standard... But this is a quick example. I've reworked Jim's High elves so I can have some stand in Dark elves until someone makes some good ones. This was really quick and isn't shaded yet. But if I can manage this, what else is possible for an actual artist?
I'm doing these at 15mm and they look fine at that scale... but with an original to work from it's a really quick job.
I've yet to see a paper mini that had more graphic content than your average perfume advert. ... The argument over whether nudity or violence is more damaging isn't really an argument. It's violence, but for some reason our culture has evolved to the point where horrific, violent images are somehow less of a problem that a hint of nipple or a navel. ... I bet Darkmook would get more complaints about his cheerleader than his Hodder blood dripping machette wielding maniac.
Well and wise spoken, jose. I couldn't agree more with you. It's quite a phenomenon, not in the US alone. We are all living in a permanent condition of daily WAR, business-wise or really in a REAL WAR. Somehow, sexuality (or love ?) is a danger for this worldwide state. People are controlled not only by their living standards and income levels, but especially by their emotions and natural needs. It's a very old problem of controlling mindsets and feelings. Sexuality means pleasure, hedonism and fearless lust of life aka freedom. That's dangerous to a disciplined worldwide power machine of money and politics. That's why greek male politicians of ancient Athen forbade womens' wild orgies of Dionysos BY LAW. But that's a bit off-topic and not the whole story, of course.
I think, modules/rules/minis-bundling is in general a good idea (I've looked at Paizo's minis a while ago. They're really funny, but also very crude, aren't they ). BUT, as I've already written above, you are referencing your minis to a specific system/product and THAT makes them specific in the reception of the customers too. So you build a niche product, even if your minis are very generic and useful for a wide audience. It's a problem of marketing strategy. If we are talking about the masses, then there are only three to five game systems of relevance worldwide. Of course, it's never impossible to be the breakthrough system/game of the decade, like Magic was in the 90ties. But then we're talking about the market for games/rule systems and not their accessoires, like gfx, gameboards and minis. That's a whole different topic - and a much harder one than mini-production. Game design and marketing needs an epic breath of time, work, intelligence, courage. That's even more true for computer games. Try to write a simple, but effective dungeon crawl for Flash. You will cry, once in a while.
Looks good, jose. And in 15 mm scale the elf would not take much more detail. It's the modular approach of single element combinations which Jim Hartman tried with mixed results. Sometimes the figures get a bit stiff and awkward because of the mismatching line flow. It sucks the life out of the mini, or you would need much more thoughts about matching parts. If you are a programmer, you can automatize the whole process of part combining though.
There is one and only approach to mini-design, that is unbeatable and brutally fast in regard to economy. It's 3D-design like the work of Graham Bottley of "Arion Games". I saw him cranking out Traveller characters in 15 minutes. But only because of his vast database of prepaired and PREPAID model parts. It's a business of investment and fore-front-costs. Personally I don't like all of his designs. There are major problems with larger creatures, because the models are not good. Good models would be too expensive for him to resale as a paper mini. So the technique is limited and not as charming and flexible than real drawing/painting skills. If you had to model all the models by yourself, boy, you had to be a very fast (and excellent) 3D artist.
BUT, as we all know, Graham maybe the only one, who was/is successful with his solo mini venture for a long period of time now. Some customers on RPGnow wrote, "it's still the industry standard". That's a matter of taste. The masses though could be leaning towards gritty realism with natural proportions, lighting and coloring. They're used to computer gfx. Look at Graham's range of historical minis. If you want to achieve those effects by painting, it would take lightyears. And maybe only okumarts could try this anyway . So there are two major stylistic schools: handdrawn and 3D rendering. I prefer the first, but not in any case. I wonder, why Graham has no link to his work on this site. Too "gritty" . Wrong information. On the homepage he's linked.
I've tried making more realistic looking paper minis, but I find they just get kind of muddy as the scale reduces and all that hard work is for nothing. I haven't totally given up on that though and I'm thinking of developing a line of standees that are designed to rival 3D minis in the way they look. It's just not what I'm interested in doing at the moment. I've got two sets to get out this week! Just tweaking some rules before I can finish the game cards.
Post by stephengroy on Mar 12, 2011 8:05:51 GMT -9
No offense to the artist, but I never cared for any of Paizo's paper minis. I love Worldwork's terrain, but not their minis. I bought their minis, but just don't really care for them as much as others out there.
I dunno for sure that this is the thread for this... but, I see Arion minis and to me they look a lot more CG than they do photo-realistic. I think its something to do with the shading and the textures they have.
I tried using poser as a basis to get my.. well, poses correct, but I wasn't pleased with the results. My mind's eye or just using the poses from life or existing minis worked better. I may yet get some mileage out of some vector silhouettes someone linked to.
okumarts, yes, it's all about clearness/readability/information or the "I need new glasses"-problem. But it's kind of strange: I have seen 28 mm paper minis of reenactored WWII-soldier-pics (real life photography). I have found them rather convincing. Same to Star Wars film shots as paper minis, or (most frustrating to paper-mini-painters) photos of D&D-minis/metal minis from the web. They could destroy the whole handdrawn biz.
Good luck with your cardgame, looks really ripe for the market, as usual.
So, we need a large enough crowd loving comic art. Because it's more or less comic art I have seen here on the board - in different tastes, styles and workmanship.
@stephen, WWG's minis are very well crafted and quite expressive. Though typical Peter-Pan-comic-stuff (I have seen their pirates lately).
revgunn, I agree. Arion Games' poser stuff is not the greatest in terms of 3D, but sufficiently good for 30mm worlds. That's Graham's trick. I think, there is a great potential of 3D-modeling, if you are working in a low detail level with fast results. But you still have to be a good modeller. There is also the whole greyzone of 2.5D-painting and bump/material-effects. Stony terrain, though.
The worst thing in poser is lighting/rendering. You can just guess that a 3D figure is made in poser 'cause it seems that it have a light source in the stomach, lighting all back teeth. Also there's no "weight" and "meat" in the figures: everything (robes, clothes...) seems floating in a no-gravity universe, and Poser isn't able to simulate a hand that "squeeze" a handle: it always seems that the figure is just touching a weapon made by blown-glass.
Post by cowboyleland on Mar 12, 2011 18:11:41 GMT -9
When threads collide! Jose's call for more mods reminds me of the recolour question. I think adding the recolours back on to the original set for free with some credit to the modder is the way to go. I like the dark elves he's got started.
On the other hand, maybe it's the herd that is crazy.
Post by josedominguez on Mar 13, 2011 2:58:11 GMT -9
THey don't take much work from the originals, I just redraw over the top and replace anything that's not 'DArk elfy' enough. These will be fine for 15mm but I'm sure an artist could rework the full set into a dark elf vector file in keeping with the original.
I'm going to redo the kilt, make it into a chainmail shirt. I need to use an existing mini for reference because I just can't do backs.
I think Paladin has the best point..... make figure ranges more generic. Sanity figs are specific to Bellicose, but the human army is equally appropriate to WFB, with a few command groups you'd have a range that would cover both games and massively increase customer base. I've already said that Labrats 'regimental' troops have enough variation for each of them to be great as an RPG character too. Labrat is going to create Bison riding orcs for bellicose, I bet that a boar riding variant could use the same riders Personally I'll be using the bison riders in Warhammer as 'counts as boars' as I love the idea of Bison riding orcs. I'm totally sold on paper minis, I don't view them as stand ins as in most cases I feel that they have a greater tabletop presence than the badly painted, poorly assembled crap we often see on a wargames board..... a paper fig is always clean, crisp and its equipment,race etc... stands out a mile. I base mine on magnetic bases and use flock, sand etc.... they look just as good as 3D sculpts and they are a whole lot easier to move on the board and transport to a game. You can't see the full impact of the switch to paper until you play a large scale wargame using steel paper movement trays and magnetic bases. It's an absolute dream. Everyone I show this to feels the same, my group is switching completely and I feel that current WFB players are a definate group to aim for..... the products are no so expensive that it is almost impossible to field a balanced army. My group is lucky enough to have the cash to spend them, this is because of our jobs, which also means we don't have the time to prep, assemble and paint the models. Anyone who has the time is unlikely to have the money. Paper is ideal, I can ssemble a unit of 100 15mm zombies in an hour or so, that's the unit size you should be working in..... but you rarely see that on the board. Paper is the only way to have large scale, good looking armies available for a large number of players.
Spread the word!
Note: we play Warhammer because we always have, since first edition, we can't help it.
Post by Vermin King on Mar 13, 2011 7:59:58 GMT -9
Funny you should mention Boars. I was about to add a post in the current Hoard about wanting them. They would be around the Southern, and especially Southwestern States. Bison, a Bear standing on four legs and one on two, boars, a coyote baying at the moon, and a buzzard that could be placed on a tree, fence or perched on a building would be wonderful.
Your comment about making items that are somewhat generic is well taken. A figure that can be used in multiple venues would be useful to a larger audience, and therefore have greater marketability. But game-specific pieces are also necessary.
Look at Dave's Buildings. Useful for a variety of games. But if a person is needing specific characters, there needs to be a way of getting those requested and available.
There are no strangers in this world,only people I haven't embarrassed ... yet!
Post by josedominguez on Mar 13, 2011 8:10:12 GMT -9
If I want a really heavilly armoured orc with a two handed warhammer, then there's no reason why the artistic style can't allow him to be a specific character in my campaign and a really cool unit leader for anyone else. He's a specific character to me, in bellicose he's an orc with heavy weapon. In warhammer he's an orc with great weapon. I've got Drizzt do'urden in my wood elf army.... the figure is Drizzt, the rules are wardancer lord
Post by josedominguez on Mar 13, 2011 8:23:06 GMT -9
Also, I know 'papercon' has been floated around on the boards..... but could that be possible? A series of demo games all in one place with a selection of pre-prints and CDs available. Bellicose, the whole Ganesha family, a demo game of warhammer to show any system is appropriate. Blood bowl in particular is a game I think would actually be better with paper figs.
Bellicose: is there a skirmish level game in the pipeline? That would be a great starting point. A small number of figures could be provided pre-cut with the game 'ready to play out of the book' much more easily than the multiple troops you'd need for massed battles. Same goes for Song of Blades etc... each rulebook comes with a random pre-cut warband (great for conventions). Or even...... a song of table at a convention, pay a small set entry fee, each player receives a totally random, pre-cut warband in an envelope. Warbands play 'king of the hill' the warband with the most victory points (for lasting longest on the hill) at the end of the day wins.
cowboyleland: Putting on my pedantic hat: some of you are mis-using the term "begs the question." Some day I will make myself a paper pedantic hat.
Nov 14, 2019 6:02:10 GMT -9
Vermin King: I wouldn't hold my breath. He used to be very active on a French forum, so I asked him if he was going to be back there. no response yet
Nov 13, 2019 9:04:45 GMT -9
squirmydad: Crap. I hope he's able to recover and republish his work.
Nov 13, 2019 8:57:48 GMT -9
Vermin King: I sent Mauther an email. My guess is that it will be inaccessible while he is migrating things over to Blogger
Nov 13, 2019 7:45:54 GMT -9
wyvern: Today though, the Papermau blog is no longer accessible unless you have an invitation (and of course you can't get one unless you visit the blog, Catch 22). Anyone got any better news about it?
Nov 13, 2019 6:22:34 GMT -9
wyvern: I know Papermau's blog has been having problems because of virus infections lately - it's fired-up my antivirus system every time I've visited there for some weeks, though he did write and say the problem was resolved a while back (it wasn't).
Nov 13, 2019 6:21:08 GMT -9
Vermin King: I suppose it could have been worse. She could boost someone up in a positive uplifting supportive manner...
Nov 9, 2019 10:25:44 GMT -9
Vermin King: Okay ... double negatives are bad, but how about triple saying the same thing. I just heard someone on TV saying, 'I found we really boosted each other up in an uplifting supportive manner'. And that was probably meaningful to her. duh
Nov 9, 2019 10:11:48 GMT -9
Vermin King: Be careful what secrets you let out of the bag
Nov 5, 2019 12:33:45 GMT -9
oldschooldm: ... SO ... One of my players now has a cutter and has joined the forum. :-) For the first time I have to worry about WIP spoilers. :-) Just kidding! Welcome h0meralm1ghty!
Nov 5, 2019 7:40:19 GMT -9
woosh: I FINISHED THE M722 LRV AND I LOVE IT. will post pics when i get the chance
Nov 4, 2019 1:10:23 GMT -9
Vermin King: Back in my younger days, I tried to get 'Trick or Drink' running. We would go door to door in costume with our Halloween-themed rocks glasses in hand.
Nov 3, 2019 4:39:43 GMT -9
shep: On the other hand, Halloween is not that big for kids, here in Germany, anyways. It's more an excuse for teens and young adults to dress up and have a party... and for the latter ones to get drunk beyond speaking their native tongue...
Nov 3, 2019 1:44:29 GMT -9
shep: "A ninja, a mage, a knight, and a fish enter a tavern..." Wait this is no joke??!? Great costumes! The kids in my neighborhood were, as always, either too shy or too lazy to climb up into the third floor (40 steps, man, 40 steps!)...
Nov 3, 2019 1:42:29 GMT -9
forgedchaos: or to traslate
Nov 2, 2019 13:14:13 GMT -9
squirmydad: Every adventuring party needs a fish to guide them.
Nov 1, 2019 8:14:51 GMT -9
WackyAnne: This year's adventuring party - no sexy witch but fish!
Nov 1, 2019 1:07:18 GMT -9