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Post by Antohammer on Feb 11, 2019 5:21:53 GMT -9
Hi guys... i was on kickstarter watching theese guys project... and i was wondering what do they use to make those miniatures? i want that thing too!!!! i cannot go asking them... it would be a bit awkward... you know.... but i want to know if you guys know what kind of printer do they use... i tried to look on internet but i dont understand... i already found something similar print on demand from the game crafter... www.thegamecrafter.com/publish/product/CustomLargeCardstockbut i wanted to know if is possible to avoid ordering there... and they print on trasparent plexiglass!!!!!!! .... buying a printer that can print on cardstock of 1 mm thickness or plexiglass and then laser cut them.... i think they do it that way.... do you have any idea guys? ? it would be awesome to print miniatures and assemble them without cutting with scissors and gluing.... directly from a box!!!!! i can immagine a super cheap army of prepainted napoleonic soldiers.... :Q______
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Post by wyvern on Feb 11, 2019 5:55:44 GMT -9
Can't help you with how WoFun Games print their minis - I'd guess the same way anyone would print onto plexiglass though. The images on their website suggests they'll be laser-cut at least. I'm a bit surprised they haven't said something about how they're printed and cut, and it's odd I didn't spot any questions about this on the KS campaign. My concern would be how robust are these? I don't mean just from the flatpack option to set up, use and then disassemble the minis for each game, but how robust will the printing be after a few games' handling, or in a year or two's time? If I have properly painted, based and varnished 3D cast minis, I know they'll be pretty robust over time, and only rarely need retouching where the paint chips off. But printed plastic isn't so hard-wearing in my experience. There is definitely a move towards more such flat mini options though. In the UK, Flatpack Forces have recently started producing WW2 minis and scenery printed onto 2mm laser-cut MDF, for instance.
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Post by pavaro on Feb 11, 2019 6:40:00 GMT -9
Unfortunately, I have no idea how to help you but wow! Why do not I know about such a project! Thanks for the link.
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Post by Rhannon on Feb 11, 2019 7:28:09 GMT -9
I don't know technical aspects but I find these figures so ugly as to be horrifying. I think they have not even been drawn. Only images or photos modified with photoshop.
Too bad.
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Post by pavaro on Feb 11, 2019 7:34:30 GMT -9
I agree. These characters are at least weird.
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Post by Rhannon on Feb 11, 2019 8:06:54 GMT -9
I agree. These characters are at least weird. I spoke with the authors. Their explanation for the head with deformed proportions is that for them the expression of the face is important. For them it is a stylistic choice. Correct. As I said on other occasions the stylistic choice of an author is not commentable. Then they say they are wargamers for a long time. And that facial expressions are important for immersion. A wargame is not a rpg. Easily they have never played on a 2m x 4m table. With 8/10 players. With thousands of miniatures (all painted) 18 mm. high. I assure you for sure that the face isn't seen. And you don't even see it with 32 mm miniatures. But in the end these are just photoshopped images imho. Not drawn. Then, those who will pledge this project will play with many big-headed dwarfs. Really realistic!
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Post by yifferman on Feb 11, 2019 9:57:18 GMT -9
well i see that, and those minis... well are too strange for me, and i suposse are more cost as paper XD
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Post by cowboyleland on Feb 11, 2019 13:05:57 GMT -9
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Post by squirmydad on Feb 11, 2019 19:17:27 GMT -9
Arcknight miniatures also makes clear acrylic front and back miniatures that are quite lovely. Arcknight MiniaturesThey use bubble cuts for the figures though instead of the edge of the mini art.
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Post by jeffgeorge on Feb 11, 2019 22:46:29 GMT -9
I find these miniatures intriguing, especially the process used to create them. But what I find most interesting is that the copy in the video for the project seems to be aimed people who know virtually nothing about miniature wargaming, rather than existing wargaming hobbyists. I suppose trying to grow the market is better than trying to steal a chunk of the existing market is a valid strategy, but this seems like a pretty niche product to be marketing to non-gamers.
Another weird thing about this project is the scale they've chosen: 18mm. If you were trying to sell into the existing hobby market, you'd probably make your minis 28mm or 15mm, so customers can use the terrain they already own.
So...interesting tech, even if it does seem to marry the worst aspects of traditional plastic minis (per-figure expense; storage space) and printable cardstock minis (flatness). But very strange marketing choices. Not sure what to make of it, but I am quite sure I won't be backing it.
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Post by Rhannon on Feb 11, 2019 23:23:07 GMT -9
I find these miniatures intriguing, especially the process used to create them. But what I find most interesting is that the copy in the video for the project seems to be aimed people who know virtually nothing about miniature wargaming, rather than existing wargaming hobbyists. I suppose trying to grow the market is better than trying to steal a chunk of the existing market is a valid strategy, but this seems like a pretty niche product to be marketing to non-gamers. Another weird thing about this project is the scale they've chosen: 18mm. If you were trying to sell into the existing hobby market, you'd probably make your minis 28mm or 15mm, so customers can use the terrain they already own. So...interesting tech, even if it does seem to marry the worst aspects of traditional plastic minis (per-figure expense; storage space) and printable cardstock minis (flatness). But very strange marketing choices. Not sure what to make of it, but I am quite sure I won't be backing it. Hi jeffgeorge, about 18 mm. scale. It is a scale used for many years, especially in the Napoleonic wargame ( at least here in Europe ). I know this is an unimportant thing but 3 mm. in addition allowed further details respect the scale in 15 mm. I remember with pleasure sessions of games lasting months ( a couple of times a week ) with 10/12 players and thousands of miniatures (prepared before) using Napoleon's Battles by Avalon Hill ( and many Italian-English dictionaries because our school lessons were not you are so productive ) Our favorite producer was AB Figures. We considered these pieces as the Rolls-Royce of Napoleonic miniatures.
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shep
Eternal Member
Red Alert! Shields up! LENS FLARE!!!
Posts: 1,260
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Post by shep on Feb 11, 2019 23:42:20 GMT -9
Now, I don't know how to print onto acrylic, but I have a budget idea for likewise minis. Step-by-step:
1) Open any of our hoard or other minis in a graphics program and mirror the page.
2) Print onto OHP transparencies. I think laserprinting would be best here.
3) Cut up the sheet and carefully score on both sides of the film (don't cut through).
4) Fold over, so the printed front and back come onto each other while the non-printed sides show outwards.
5) Glue with superglue. Trim minis to fit.
I guess, the best result will be obtained by including a white sheet of thin plasic or cardstock, sandwiched between front and back, so the lines of both sides don't shine through the respective other side, obscuring the lines of the artwork. In the end you should have a quite sturdy homemade plastics flat.
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shep
Eternal Member
Red Alert! Shields up! LENS FLARE!!!
Posts: 1,260
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Post by shep on Feb 11, 2019 23:56:53 GMT -9
I find these miniatures intriguing, especially the process used to create them. But what I find most interesting is that the copy in the video for the project seems to be aimed people who know virtually nothing about miniature wargaming, rather than existing wargaming hobbyists. I suppose trying to grow the market is better than trying to steal a chunk of the existing market is a valid strategy, but this seems like a pretty niche product to be marketing to non-gamers. Another weird thing about this project is the scale they've chosen: 18mm. If you were trying to sell into the existing hobby market, you'd probably make your minis 28mm or 15mm, so customers can use the terrain they already own. So...interesting tech, even if it does seem to marry the worst aspects of traditional plastic minis (per-figure expense; storage space) and printable cardstock minis (flatness). But very strange marketing choices. Not sure what to make of it, but I am quite sure I won't be backing it. For what you get, these minis are just way too expensive... Also, they want to sell their own scenery pieces, so they have no trouble using neither 15 nor 25/28 mm scale...
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Post by Antohammer on Feb 12, 2019 7:02:27 GMT -9
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Post by cowboyleland on Feb 12, 2019 7:42:42 GMT -9
Now, I don't know how to print onto acrylic, but I have a budget idea for likewise minis. Step-by-step: 1) Open any of our hoard or other minis in a graphics program and mirror the page. 2) Print onto OHP transparencies. I think laserprinting would be best here. 3) Cut up the sheet and carefully score on both sides of the film (don't cut through). 4) Fold over, so the printed front and back come onto each other while the non-printed sides show outwards. 5) Glue with superglue. Trim minis to fit. I guess, the best result will be obtained by including a white sheet of thin plasic or cardstock, sandwiched between front and back, so the lines of both sides don't shine through the respective other side, obscuring the lines of the artwork. In the end you should have a quite sturdy homemade plastics flat. This effect wouldn't be so different from laminating paper minis. You could also maybe print on thin styrene, glue front and back together and laminate that. But if I am going to pay for a plastic fig, I want it to be 3d. In the end I agree with jeffgeorge, worst of both worlds.
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Post by jeffgeorge on Feb 12, 2019 13:37:23 GMT -9
Hi jeffgeorge, about 18 mm. scale. It is a scale used for many years, especially in the Napoleonic wargame ( at least here in Europe ). I know this is an unimportant thing but 3 mm. in addition allowed further details respect the scale in 15 mm. I remember with pleasure sessions of games lasting months ( a couple of times a week ) with 10/12 players and thousands of miniatures (prepared before) using Napoleon's Battles by Avalon Hill ( and many Italian-English dictionaries because our school lessons were not you are so productive ) Our favorite producer was AB Figures. We considered these pieces as the Rolls-Royce of Napoleonic miniatures. Thanks for educating me. I wasn't aware that 18mm was widely used for miniatures wargaming. Is it still in use in Europe? I don't recall seeing much of anything except 15mm and 28mm here in North America in recent years. To be fair, though, I haven't been to a wargames convention in decades; I'm basing my perceptions on what I see advertised through online retailers and mentioned in online blogs and videos, and what I see being played at my local club and shop. (Which is pretty much Warhammer and more Warhammer...).
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Post by jeffgeorge on Feb 12, 2019 13:44:27 GMT -9
For what you get, these minis are just way too expensive... Also, they want to sell their own scenery pieces, so they have no trouble using neither 15 nor 25/28 mm scale... Honestly, I was intrigued by the technology and process, not the product as executed, so I didn't bother doing the math to compare price and value. As I said, it seemed to me that they were aiming at a relatively unsophisticated market, unfamiliar with existing miniatures gaming systems and products, so their targeted customers probably wouldn't have much basis on which to judge value. All the more reason for folks already involved in the hobby not to back this particular Kickstarter. Generally speaking, while the plexi miniatures are kind of cool, they aren't that much better than paper. And since you have to buy them as manufactured pieces, rather than infinitely printable files, the cost per figure would have to be much less than the cost of traditional metal or plastic minis to make the loss of realism worthwhile. They only advantage they have over cardstock minis and traditional minis is that they come ready to play--no printing, painting, or assembly. That's just not enough of an advantage for me personally.
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Post by jeffgeorge on Feb 12, 2019 13:54:12 GMT -9
Now, I don't know how to print onto acrylic, but I have a budget idea for likewise minis. Step-by-step: 1) Open any of our hoard or other minis in a graphics program and mirror the page. 2) Print onto OHP transparencies. I think laserprinting would be best here. 3) Cut up the sheet and carefully score on both sides of the film (don't cut through). 4) Fold over, so the printed front and back come onto each other while the non-printed sides show outwards. 5) Glue with superglue. Trim minis to fit. I guess, the best result will be obtained by including a white sheet of thin plasic or cardstock, sandwiched between front and back, so the lines of both sides don't shine through the respective other side, obscuring the lines of the artwork. In the end you should have a quite sturdy homemade plastics flat. Yes, you'd have a sturdy homemade plastics flat, but you'd have put in much more time and expense than would be necessary to print and assemble the same figures using 110 lb. cardstock. I've printed and played with literally thousands of cardstock minis over the past few years, and less than a dozen of them have been damaged to the point they aren't playable. Unless your miniature collection is submerged in some sort of flood, properly made cardstock miniatures are plenty durable for tabletop use. There are two reasons why I actually do end up re-printing cardstock miniatures occasionally: 1) Because I lost the originals, or 2) because I have so damn many of them, not well sorted and stored, that I can't find the ones I need when I need them, and it's faster just to reprint them. Making them out of a more durable material won't fix either of those problems, but it will make it more expensive, in both time and materials, to replace them. Shep, if you actually do make any minis this way, please do report back on whether it was worth the effort. I'm pretty sure that the procedure you described was intended as a thought experiment, though.
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Post by jeffgeorge on Feb 12, 2019 14:00:22 GMT -9
There is definitely a move towards more such flat mini options though. In the UK, Flatpack Forces have recently started producing WW2 minis and scenery printed onto 2mm laser-cut MDF, for instance. I wasn't aware of these. They look nice and are priced pretty reasonably--which is to say, much less than traditional 3D miniatures. A much more attractive option than WoFun's printed plexi solution. Thanks for making us aware of them, Wyvern.
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Post by 8rad on Feb 14, 2019 9:59:27 GMT -9
Interesting choice of angle used as compared to trad euro flats which tend to be side on. So would limit their use in dioramas, but to be fair it feels like they are aiming at a different audience. Looks like something one would buy for a 8-13 yo to either get them interested in history or board gaming (a win on both fronts). Everything in a box and ready to go in no time, so good for short attention spans more akin to hitting a power button. Not aimed at the collector or RPG crowds for sure and to be fair a pretty brimming cup already. These guys would to well in the more posher kids toys market. Granted they do look a little ugly up close but in game should look pretty cool in a mass battle, picketts charge etc. More over they pop out the bases so you have loads of dead scattered about.
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Post by wyvern on Feb 15, 2019 14:13:11 GMT -9
Antohammer : You may be able to print 1 mm thick card using a standard printer, as long as you can feed the paper through flat (so the paper doesn't have to be turned around a roller when printing). Finding 1 mm thick card with a surface that will give a good finish for paper minis and scenery is another problem entirely, as this thickness is some way beyond the heaviest weight printing paper I've sourced for printing paper minis. I think you might be better off printing onto your normal good quality paper, and then gluing that to card of suitable thickness separately, if that's what you need. jeffgeorge : The 18mm scale thing for cast minis is simply classic scale-creep. As the mm "scales" aren't really scales at all, nobody could ever decide whether 15mm, say, was meant to be the height of a normal standing human figure from sole of foot to crown of head, sole of foot to eye, or some other measure. That's aside from what exactly a normal standing human figure is meant to be in real height terms anyway. So if you took 15mm as being the distance from the foot to the eye, that meant the full height of a figure (foot to crown of head) without elaborate headgear was around 3mm taller. The same problem meant 25mm became 28mm and now more often 30 or 32mm. Some manufacturers, especially of MDF scenery, are using specific true scale ratios again now, because that's of greater relevance when you're trying to convert real world structures into game models. This naturally causes much confusion among folks who have only ever used the mm scaling conventions for minis! The natural range of human proportions means this isn't always much of a problem, of course. The real snag is when sculptors change the bulk of the figure to suit a different perceived scale height, so some ranges of cast minis just don't look "right" when used together. 8rad : The face-on style of these KS minis follows the relatively new style established with the Peter Dennis paper minis, many of which have been published in printed book form only by Helion in the UK. I think this is the more recent CWF topic that dealt with these minis (with links).
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Post by 8rad on Feb 16, 2019 3:47:22 GMT -9
"8rad : The face-on style of these KS minis follows the relatively new style established with the Peter Dennis paper minis, many of which have been published in printed book form only by Helion in the UK. I think this is the more recent CWF topic that dealt with these minis (with links)." Its a valid angle for sure, indeed used it myself back in the 2014 papercuts (below link). Works really well for wargames with block regiments where the players are face on to each other. Also very much suits the rank and file setup where a number of minis are set together. Again really depends on where they aiming, the flats community are very historically focused like these guys hence comparing the euro flats. cardboard-warriors.proboards.com/thread/6242/townsfolk-undead-battleset
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Post by Antohammer on Feb 17, 2019 12:45:38 GMT -9
wyvern thankyou i was thinking the same but then i decided that is best sticking to printing on 200 grams paper .... it s cheap and works very good .... your idea was very good but then i need a laser cutter aniway.... it s very interesting but i dont know.... i was thinking to make as you suggested using a self glueing paper but too much problem.... thankyou anyway
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Post by creyates on Feb 27, 2019 6:33:53 GMT -9
8rad those look great! I've found myself falling in love with the smaller scale. Currently working on an army project at 10/15mmm myself. Antohammer i am also intrigued by the idea of printing on some sort of transparent material. I think it would be great for projects that require groups of minis in rank + file, not to mention flyers!
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