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Post by Vermin King on Jan 30, 2021 6:02:17 GMT -9
A rather odd looking structure, with an odd history. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palazzo_DarioFrom the Grand Canal, it doesn't have a large face, but it extends back a long way It also has an interesting back. I picture giving the main building a square footprint, with the wing as a second structure on the back And PostImage is giving a 503 error. Oh, well, on with dialog Many architects and artists are intrigued by the oddness of this building, so there are a lot of old illustrations, paintings, wood cuts, and daguerreotypes. As I finished up the Sotoportego, I was thinking it had been a while since I built a vintage model. Hmmm, could I combine the two? Photographic would be like this Hey, PostImage is back! From the illustration, it would be more like this And here's the back
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 30, 2021 11:17:47 GMT -9
There are a number of reasons I think this could be a quick deal and be worthwhile to put some time into.
1) It certainly 'looks' Venetian, though it is really one of a kind 2) On the Sotoportego Building, I think my shallow roof is too shallow and the tall roof is way too tall. To develop a third roof only for it would not make a lot of sense, since the shallow roof works well. It could just be a bit better. 3) It isn't often I see all of this material on a building. There are more photos and paintings of Ca d'Oro, but not as many illustrations, sketches, woodcuts and dagguereotypes. You can follow the different changes of this building, which is very interesting to me. 4) My method of doing textures. I take photos that I find and turn them into something that isn't exactly photorealistic. Photorealistic rarely looks as good on a building as one would think. I then will take the texture or image and heavily cartoon it, with a lot of drawing. Then I merge the two. It is strange to me that I have yet to figure out what percent of my 'enhanced' image vs what percent of my cartoon I will end up using.
With this building I have a full slate of different types of images to manipulate. Very intriguing. The back will be done with my favorite Venetian Brick texture and stucco, but the windows and doors will use my normal process. It sits so close to the Palazzo Barbaro Wolkoff, there is little detail to see except along the front, back and top edges. In an early 1800s illustration, it is depicted as brick. It has since been stucco'd. The west side is more visible and seems to have been stucco in all of the material I have seen.
BTW, this building really does lean to the right, but probably not due to the myth that it was built on a Knights Templar cemetery. The Templars did some odd things, but burying their dead in a marsh next to deeper water on two sides is probably unlikely
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 30, 2021 18:34:00 GMT -9
Similar to Ca d'Oro, the facade wraps around the sides a little. In this case, one window segment's worth. On the west side there are the top three floors of windows. The ground floor is windowless in this area. On the east side, some time around 1870 to 1890, the windows were closed up. I can't see far enough down the canal in the daguerreotypes or in the passage between Ca Dario and Ca Barbaro how far the marble on the 'basement', the ground floor, extends. In sketches and paintings, this treatment extends past the edge of the windows areas. Is it artistic license? Maybe, but if so, I can apply artistic license myself. My thought is to have it extend twice as far as the window area. The experiment of trying to overlay photographic marble over the Ruskin illustration facade was a complete fail. So I spent my evening working on cleaning up the Ruskin art. I added the other door on the front, removed the balcony shadows (but not the balcony, yet) and replaced some of the missing polychrome circles that were missing or damaged. Not all of them, but quite a few. The worst ones. I also enhanced the writing on the basement. The main building will have the same footprint as the sotoportego building, but it works out to 8.2 inches tall I want to enhance the windows and find a way to get the marble to a more appropriate hue, still, but not bad progress EDIT -- Not as rosy pink as the photo, but the windows seem a lot better to me now and that's not a bad start on the sides. I went ahead and ran the basement all the way back
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 31, 2021 8:47:07 GMT -9
The Ramo Dario, the dead end calle between Ca Dario and Palazzo Barbaro, leads to steps at the Grand Canal. I see no visual evidence of it, but I imagine it was the back entrance for deliveries, so I put a door on the east wall. When you go through the gate for Ramo Dario, you can proceed north to the Canal or my fictitious back door, or you can make a left to a small terrace in the northeast corner of the walled garden. There is a grander door here, also, between the palazzo and the garden. The garden also has a door to the canal that runs along the west side of the property. I am half tempted to add the small garden at the back and the Ramo Dario gate. The back is thinly stucco'd over brick you can see hints of in the photos, but I am just going to do it in brick to match the brick I used on the east wall. Even though I am going to do the little wing with the liagò on top, I am going to develop the wall so that one can build a simpler building without the wing. Going back to Reason 2 above, I am going to work on the roof next. The liagò roof will have the same slope as the main building roof and needs to abut the main building roof. After the roof I will return to the rear wall and wing EDIT -- Okay, figured I needed the base back wall and realized I still had the side tabs on page 2 that needed deletion EDIT #2 -- Did the base wall for the wing Decided to add the chimney from the back to the west side also, since it is obvious in so many images
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 31, 2021 14:29:25 GMT -9
I think that my tall roof isn't that far off from the slope of the real roof, but I want it to be shallower. I remember some documentary on the evolution of the Egyptian pyramids, and how they had to learn the hard way how to make them stable. I don't remember the angle on the later pyramids, and it was speculation on how they came up with the correct angle, but they demonstrated that if you pour sand into a pile, regardless of how large a pile you make, the angle of its profile remains the same. The same angle as pyramids. Try to make it steeper and the sand rolls down. I think the same applies to standing a figure on a slope. Too steep and the figure will slide down or topple over. So this building probably will not have an altana, though it has had several altana configurations in its history. I don't want the roof to look too shallow, but not too steep either. Here's my workpage again. On the image at the bottom, the lower one is my shallow roof and the upper one is for the tall roof. So, I decided to split the difference, the middle one, which I copied and pasted above so I can easily extract it to build the roof files. Once I work those up tonight, I might even start printing and building this grand palazzo. Well, I might get it scored. In all actuality, I will probably work on the wing instead. I really would like to see this printed up though. I actually saw the terrace called an altana today. So my working definition of 'liagò' may need revision. I think I might just call it a terrace
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 31, 2021 19:09:38 GMT -9
That took a bit longer than I expected. Need to finish up the wing and terrace with the roof Need to arrange the front to accomodate the balcony Still probably not too bad for a quick project. The original post was 37 hours ago...
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Post by aleks on Jan 31, 2021 22:44:46 GMT -9
Great!
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 1, 2021 10:05:25 GMT -9
Well, over lunch I wanted to get more info on the original sketch. It was John Ruskin's (Stones of Venice), but not done by him. He commissioned Giacomo Boni to do the work. He did it with watercolor and pen and ink over graphite on wove paper. As Ruskin gifted this to Oxford University in 1883, it was done before this. Since Boni was born in 1859, my guess is that it was done in the 1870's.
Also over lunch, I worked on the front a bit and pulled off a copy of the balcony to work on tonight, and did the chimney bases.
Ruskin made several trips to Venice to write his three-volume book on the History, Art and Architecture of Venice. I have never read it, but I would tend to think I would sympathize with his concept of 'the destruction of Venice through restoration'. The 'restorations' were destroying things he was mesmerized with on his first trips there. He started commissioning other artists to capture as much of Venice as possible before it was wiped out
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Post by monstersbtm on Feb 1, 2021 13:57:13 GMT -9
Ok, I was just missing this thread. Bookmarked instantly! Thanks VK!
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 1, 2021 17:59:22 GMT -9
I think the dental work is done for a long time, but between work today and the dentist, I didn't accomplish much tonight. I did get the balcony removed from the front of the building for those wanting to do the 3d balcony. I had hoped to re-texture the balcony from the Sotoportego Building. Geometry is different. I'll have to look at it with fresh eyes tomorrow. Here is the new front And the old one for those wanting a simple build And this gives me an idea for those wanting a simple build. When I get the graphics done for the wing, I can actually have them on the back wall for a simple build, or you can build the wing and place it over the other graphics. On the wing, the altana/liagò terrace will be playable. The sotoportego passage shows that this needs better access. I think I have it worked out so that the roof will lift off, but can also sit securely on the wing and roof of the main building.
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Post by monstersbtm on Feb 2, 2021 0:08:34 GMT -9
How big are you planning to do this palazzo? Seems a quite imposing building to me. (it's not a bad thing, don't get me wrong!)
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Post by gothique on Feb 2, 2021 3:26:26 GMT -9
How big are you planning to do this palazzo? Seems a quite imposing building to me. (it's not a bad thing, don't get me wrong!) I wondered the same thing. If Palazzo Dario is too grand for the sortoportego, how about making it to fit in with Glenn's Merchant Prince houses? I have a place on my table ready for another one of those. The dimensions of the Merchant Prince are 7" wide, 4" deep and 9" to the top of the front wall. mine are cut cutaway to protrude 10mm over a 2" riva.
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 2, 2021 5:03:35 GMT -9
The Ca Dario has the same footprint as the sotoportego, only taller. 8.2 inches tall before adding the roof. I chose this one for its narrow facade. As Shep noted when we were working on Ca d'Oro, it is so wide, it is hard to figure out where to put the seam. Ca Dario is narrow but long. I have shortened it to only about 35% to 40% of its length. If you add the little wing on the back, it will be 2 inches longer than the base model.
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 2, 2021 6:34:22 GMT -9
I wondered the same thing. If Palazzo Dario is too grand for the sortoportego, how about making it to fit in with Glenn's Merchant Prince houses? I have a place on my table ready for another one of those. The dimensions of the Merchant Prince are 7" wide, 4" deep and 9" to the top of the front wall. mine are cut cutaway to protrude 10mm over a 2" riva. I maintained the proportions of the Boni watercolor for this (I didn't want to have the circles turning into ovals), and that puts it at 8.2 inches. Just a little shorter than the Merchant Prince.
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Post by gothique on Feb 2, 2021 9:57:55 GMT -9
The Ca Dario has the same footprint as the sotoportego, only taller. 8.2 inches tall before adding the roof. I chose this one for its narrow facade. As Shep noted when we were working on Ca d'Oro, it is so wide, it is hard to figure out where to put the seam. Ca Dario is narrow but long. I have shortened it to only about 35% to 40% of its length. If you add the little wing on the back, it will be 2 inches longer than the base model. Perfect, they will match up nicely and still fit inside the riva
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 2, 2021 10:22:17 GMT -9
My biggest concern with this one is whether the 150 year old graphics will fit in well enough with the other buildings
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Post by gothique on Feb 2, 2021 12:53:01 GMT -9
My first big papercraft project; Fuel Crisis on New Venus mixed Glenn's models with a few other designers. My second; Rio Bonito was all Glenn Williams but not all the same. My third: Graveyard mixed Chris Nahler and David Graffam with others. My fourth; Samurai Village was all Chris Nahler. With this project; I have, so far mixed your work with Glenn Williams and David Graffam. Do your buildings fit in? Most certainly. Do they look the part? Just look at the likes and comments on my pictures. I sometimes have to compensate for slight variations in scale and detailing, but I often have to do that with different releases by Glenn. That being said, variations in style and a little artistic licence really gives a table character. I joined Cardboard Warriors because I wanted to champion paper scenery, for its beauty and economic sense. This project is a classic example. So many Carnevale tables are collections of expensive MDF buildings by the same designer (often unpainted) or basic and inaccurate flat paper fold ups. I want a table that is quirky and colourful but looks believable. Suspension of disbelief, as they say in the movies. Your buildings look fine alongside Glenn's and I am not averse to tweaking his models to blend in.
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Post by monstersbtm on Feb 2, 2021 14:13:19 GMT -9
Now I have to print what gothique said and put it into a frame over my bed. Bye bye, wedding photos 😂😂 wife shall understand
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 3, 2021 5:53:57 GMT -9
And this balcony should be a more simple set-up than the sotoportego deluxe balcony, but it gave me headaches all night last night. And the balcony graphics do not carry over well to a stand alone piece. I am currently experimenting with a merger of the Ca Dario graphics and the other balcony graphics, hoping for a happy medium, but it didn't go well last night. I may end up doing a mod of the old one ( the two central posts need to align with the door frame behind them) and hope that the graphics do not look too out of place.
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Post by gothique on Feb 3, 2021 6:13:57 GMT -9
The only problem I can see with balconies is support. I feel they need something solid underneath to anchor to the wall. Not everyone will be using light resin or paper figures
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 3, 2021 6:38:59 GMT -9
It is pretty stout. Had to add ballast to the building to keep it from falling over, but that is pretty substantial weight I was looking for a bag of lead shot (that wasn't where I thought it was) to put in the spice bottles, but couldn't find
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 3, 2021 13:56:03 GMT -9
That did get me thinking, though. On the Sotoportego building, the balcony is just above the posts which are double and the whole passage structure. On Ca Dario, there is no substructure for support. Will the weight cause the wall to bulge? Probably not, but maybe. If you are going to use the 3d balcony on Ca Dario, internal bracing might be a good idea. A sheet of cardstock that attached to the front and back, perpendicular to the front and back walls would handle it. Either that or just double up the thickness on the front wall. Requires some thought. I did make some progress on re-texturing the other balcony for Ca Dario. Have only done the front section and haven't re-worked the top plate, but this has been the most promising so far. Up at the top is the balcony from the print. Under it is the new texture. My experiments with narrowing the railing spindles has been less than successful, so I just tried darkening them 3 pixels in from each side. But it looks promising
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Post by factoria tabletop on Feb 4, 2021 4:19:58 GMT -9
the building looks amazing! wow nice touch to put that mini ( from antonhammer right? ) on the top
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 4, 2021 4:58:18 GMT -9
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 4, 2021 7:22:13 GMT -9
Well, the winter weather today and Saturday, and arctic air mass moving in Friday has changed my plans for the weekend. I really dislike traveling when the high is 12 F. I have hit that point where I am spread out. The page 4 rear wall had windows that I developed from the one clear view of a rear window I had at the time Placement of the windows is good, but the windows are not correct. So, here is where I am at now Only one is a good proxy. I have been also working on the wing and almost have the terrace worked out. I actually found an image of the mosaics being installed with the latest remodel, but it was barely started and probably not period correct (they have glassed in the terrace, too). So I need to find images of tiling that I think will fit with this for the balcony and terrace. I am actually leaning towards the tiling found in one of the chiesas I'm not very organized right now. Time to complete one thing before moving to the next. If I get the back wall of the wing done, those images will be transferred to the same location on the base rear wall. Then I will do the more correct rear windows to replace the ones I removed. At that point, the base simple Ca Dario can be built. Then I will hopefully have found a 'proper' texture for the balcony floor and finish it. At that point, I will only have the rear wing to finish things. I have played around with the roof of it and I think I have a generally good concept for a lift off roof so that the terrace will be playable, but until I have the terrace built, it is only a guess that I have it worked out. The wing roof will have a flat base and either corner pieces that slide into the terrace or maybe little boxes that will fit into the top of the terrace. Then I will have to resist the urge to design some more chimneys...
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 6, 2021 14:38:01 GMT -9
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 6, 2021 17:43:03 GMT -9
And I got sidetracked by tile shopping. A guy goes around taking pictures of his feet on interesting tile, and this one was listed as 'a Venetian church'. So, I did a little straightening and through creative cutting and pasting have a sheet of it I think it will do
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 7, 2021 12:00:48 GMT -9
Still not sure about a non-reinforced front wall. The balcony sits high, but it is close to the corner, so it should be fine, but I'm not 100% positive about that. Balcony weight should be fine. Paper figures fine. I even think resin figures would be fine. If someone used metal figures, they might want to think about reinforcing the front wall. But I think I will go ahead and put it together
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 7, 2021 13:24:42 GMT -9
Razzum frazzum. Roof is still too steep to stand a figure on 'with confidence'. Some figures stay until the least little jiggle, and others just slide off immediately. Roll for fall damage. Something tells me that if I were to do the right search, the answer has got to be out there for maximum pitch to have a figure stand on. Haven't found the answer yet
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 7, 2021 17:19:41 GMT -9
I still think the shallow roof is too shallow on the Sotoportego. It works, but visually, I think a little taller would look better. For a model on the shelf, that looks pretty good, but if figures slide off... The original roof on this was designed with the peak of the roof halfway between the heights of the tall and short sotoportego roofs. Now I am going to try halfway between this roof and the short roof. There is only 136 pixels difference, so at 68 pixels shorter, the hypotenuse of the right triangle needs to be shortened by a mere 15 pixels. Only 30 pixels difference between the two roofs. It is amazing how such small numbers make such a huge difference EDIT -- I think Vegas would give me a 50/50 shot of the new roof working. Well, Vegas might not give me that good of odds, but I think I give it a 75% shot of being good
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