What would you want from pre-printed packs?

[Dave]

Sky's the limit.

[Parduz]

I think that i don't understand the question... sure is my fault, but could you explain it?

[Tommygun]

Small market stalls:
Fruit and vegetable stand.
Fish vendor.
Bread stall.
Clothing, rugs, small weapons stand etc...

Each merchant stall would be on three pages.
Maybe a three sided tent open on one side or something like a lean to tent.
The tent would probably take up the first two pages because you have to show the interior.
But the tent can be reskined for different looks.
The third page would have the merchant's sell items in it.


Also an open air blacksmith shop with just a roof.
The forge and anvil in the middle and a few tools hanging from the rafters.

[Dave]

Here's what I've been babbling about. I've had a few emails from customers and retail shop owners asking if I have pre-printed packets for sale.

So with my modest resources, I think I can put together something like the packet shown here. It'd contain enough pre-printed sheets to build about 6 models -- about 25 cardstock sheets in all. They wouldn't be pre-cut, pre-punched or pre-scored. It would include a CD-ROM loaded with all of the sorts of files that you would normally get if you downloaded all those models, so you could customize and could print more of them on your own.

Just to break even on something like that, I would have to charge about $30 per packet (which doesn't include shipping -- but that's on you). I'd have to sell 20 sets to make my money back, however long that takes. (That doesn't include the cost of a shrinkwrap machine and the time I'll spend assembling the packets -- but I'll probably shrinkwrap everything in my house so that'll pay for itself quick.)

Do you think a packet like that is even worth $30? Would you pay that much? I'm not sure I would.

What I should charge, and what would be standard practice, is more like $50. But I'm really not sure anyone would pay that much for something like this.

So you can see that I'm not so interested in which specific models should go in the pre-printed sets. I would probably start with models that I have already completed, and maybe tweak a few things. I figure folks who shop in brick-and-mortar stores have a lot of catching up to do when it comes to collecting my stuff.

Anyway, I'm looking for opinions and ideas. But right now, it doesn't look good. It doesn't make sense to sell something just to break even (at $30 retail), but I don't think most people would see a packet of 25 cardstock prints and a CD-ROM as being worth much more than that. Maybe I'm missing something.

[Sirrob01]

Dave can you include more without the price increasing in a linear fashion?

If you could get say 4-5 buildings and 6-8 pieces of road all bundled in (say enough for a small 2'x2' layout) and then have an example of that laid out on the front cover I think they might be more attractive and possibly be able to gain a higher price. The current cover slip looks like it's just the one building. You could also slather a big "download link to free coachhouse model included inside" or something.

Your avg paperback these days sells for around $20 and a lot of rules around the $50-$80 mark (at least to buy physically in a shop). I think $35-$40 might be doable, heck we used to pay $30 for just music cd's .

I'd be pretty clear on your cover sheet that the printed pages are un-perforated and require cutting out or some people could be very disappointed.

Just some thoughts, I think your right though you might be fighting an uphill battle.

[Parduz]

Oh, i understand now.
My point of view is that i would pay for cutted parts.
Buy "only" printed stuffs seems not really a deal: i may use online photoprinting service available here and for the same price or so i could have them printed on super sturdy Fujifilm photopaper with a very strong ink.
US ppl seems to have lots of the same services, if not better (i really envy the ArtsCow playing cards service)... i've not checked the prices, but it seems to me that you're talking about an already established service which you may have to fight with.
- edit -
What i've not understood is how many sets your "pack" contains: if the 6 models you mention are the variations of the same set, then what i said is still valid.
If they are 6 different set, then it is much more worthy ;D

[Tommygun]

I misunderstood as well.
I would suggest keeping it more simple.
First you don't need a shrink wrap machine.
I have seen bagged items in those large seal-able type sandwich bags.
But they are not the ones from the grocery store, they are for commercial use.
They just print a label and fold it in half, then slide it over the top of the bag and staple it.

Just put one building in it on 110lb paper, no chipboard (No DVD ether) and sell it for about $6.90 to the retail store with a ten order minimum.
I assume it would be cheaper to have a local copy place do the printing in bulk for you?

[Dominic]

I think the main problem will be that getting six times the same model won't sound like a good deal to most people who are not familiar with your work and it's versatility. Besides, having, say, six country houses or taverns won't make a good-looking village.

I'd say either make a pack with a single model in 3 variants and put them all on the cover, or make a set from 3-6 different models but only one each. People might photocopy them, but some might see the variety of your models (from the ads you put inside ) and buy them anyway.

Personally, I don't know about these pre-printed packs. For me, printing the stuff myself is easier and I can chose what I print. Then again, I bought a new printer a while back with paper models in mind, and I got a CIS, so I can print them rather cheap. The way I see it, these packs are for either non-papercrafters who want some scenery or for those you can get hooked on the hobby.

I don't know which variant would be better for the purpose of selling and marketing your stuff, but I think both would have their market share.

Oh, one more thing that just occurred to me, where do you intend to sell them? I mean, online via mail or "physically" at some rpg store? It might make a difference.

[labrat]

Ah... the dilemma of every paper model publisher who wants to sell brick and mortar to reach a wider audience.

We have looked into this as well. We haven't figured out a great solution yet. Print in China, that's what I say. I don't know really.

If you figure out a good printing solution or find a printer who will do it for a decent price then pass it on.

We have a local shop that sells a new, very fast color printer at about $0.01 per page, 100 sheets/minute. Guess how much this wonderful printer costs? About 50 grand. So if you could afford an investment like that, you'd be in business. No problem printing at reasonable prices after that.

[Dave]

First of all, thank you so much for your input here, gang. This is exactly the sort of brainstorming I need. I'll just say that some of what you suggested is encouraging, but most of it makes me think this isn't something worth doing now.

I did a little more number-crunching and I might be able to get my costs down to about $20 per set. I'd still have to stick at least a $29.99 price on the packet, but that's about what I was aiming.

Nov 17, 2010 21:36:40 GMT -9 Sirrob01 said:

Dave can you include more without the price increasing in a linear fashion?

Not really. The more sheets in the set, the more it has to cost. The best deal I'm likely to get on color laser prints is 59 cents per page. That's my cost. For the customer, that means about $1 per page. I like the idea of including road sections, but it means $1 per section. If anything, I would release a set of tiles on their own.

The current cover slip looks like it's just the one building. You could also slather a big "download link to free coachhouse model included inside" or something.

Haha, that's just a mockup. I would definitely include pictures of every model in the set. (In fact I have to sacrifice one of the printed sets in order to make the graphics for the wrapper. So that kind of needs to be factored into the production costs. And I'm not paying myself anything for my time putting these together. And I'm essentially giving the PDFs away for free...)

Not looking good for the printed sets, I must say.

I'd be pretty clear on your cover sheet that the printed pages are un-perforated and require cutting out or some people could be very disappointed.

I would probably assume that they're cut, too. That's my second biggest concern. Is there even any point in selling pre-printed stuff if it isn't cut and scored already? I might be able to get the sheets cut and scored, but that's certainly going to add to the cost.

[Dave]

Nov 17, 2010 23:40:10 GMT -9 Parduz said:

My point of view is that i would pay for cutted parts... If they are 6 different set, then it is much more worthy ;D

It would definitely be a collection of different models, not just one model 6 times!

[Parduz]

Nov 18, 2010 7:21:31 GMT -9 Dave said:

Nov 17, 2010 23:40:10 GMT -9 Parduz said:

My point of view is that i would pay for cutted parts... If they are 6 different set, then it is much more worthy ;D

It would definitely be a collection of different models, not just one model 6 times!

Well, that changes a lot.
I don't know what could be the shipping costs, but 6 model preprinted for 30$ are less of what i'd pay for the PDFs and the printing service.
You raised my attention.

[Dave]

Nov 18, 2010 0:34:55 GMT -9 Tommygun said:

First you don't need a shrink wrap machine.
I have seen bagged items in those large seal-able type sandwich bags.
But they are not the ones from the grocery store, they are for commercial use.
They just print a label and fold it in half, then slide it over the top of the bag and staple it.

Great idea. That'd be the way to go. Cheers for that!

Just put one building in it on 110lb paper, no chipboard (No DVD ether) and sell it for about $6.90 to the retail store with a ten order minimum.

Quick number crunch on that one: West Gate (for example) fits on 7 sheets. 59 cents times 7 = $4.13 my cost, or roughly $4.30 with packaging. That doesn't leave much room for profit with retailers.

Buying directly from me means additional postage and packaging. If a set gets lost in the mail and I need to replace it, that comes out of my pocket too.

Not looking good.

[Dave]

Nov 18, 2010 7:35:52 GMT -9 Parduz said:

I don't know what could be the shipping costs, but 6 model preprinted for 30$ are less of what i'd pay for the PDFs and the printing service.
You raised my attention.

I'm also starting to feel that $30 might be an acceptable price for a collection of 6 medium-sized models, but only if it includes the CD-ROM with all the files. The CD is also nice because it lets me include instructions and catalogs and other extras without having to spend anything to print them.

[Dave]

Nov 18, 2010 1:06:16 GMT -9 Dominic said:

I think the main problem will be that getting six times the same model...

It would be a set of different models, not 6 of the same.

The way I see it, these packs are for either non-papercrafters who want some scenery or for those you can get hooked on the hobby.

That's exactly how I see them. So it might work in my favor that those folks might not know what it costs to print a cardstock sheet.

I should have made it clear that the shops asking to carry my stuff are game stores. Potential customers won't necessarily be familiar with papercraft, but when they see the packaging they should instantly understand that it's terrain for gaming.

Maybe I should stress how 6 paper models for $30 can be ready to play in a single afternoon, while 1 resin model for $40 won't be ready to play without spending hours using expensive brushes and paint -- for just one model. It's been a while since I've had to convince anyone of the benefits of papercrafting!

[Dave]

Nov 18, 2010 4:37:54 GMT -9 labrat said:

We have a local shop that sells a new, very fast color printer at about $0.01 per page, 100 sheets/minute. Guess how much this wonderful printer costs? About 50 grand. So if you could afford an investment like that, you'd be in business. No problem printing at reasonable prices after that.

Ironically, the reason I started selling paper models is because I got laid off from my job at a print shop. If I hadn't lost my job, I'd still have access to all of that great equipment and could probably work out a great price with the boss. Yes sir those machines are awesome, but no sir they ain't cheap.

Now my best hope is to work out something with a local printer.

Another possibility is approaching book publishers directly, but that's obviously a long shot. But publishers of children's books might want to work with something like this, so maybe I'll carpet bomb them with unsolicited emails.

[old squirmydad]

Nov 18, 2010 8:56:28 GMT -9 Dave said:

Another possibility is approaching book publishers directly, but that's obviously a long shot. But publishers of children's books might want to work with something like this, so maybe I'll carpet bomb them with unsolicited emails.

Usborne books used to sell pre-printed, uncut, papermodel sets aimed at young audiences;www.usborne-books.com/?gclid=CLDxoZSVq6UCFQN7gwodpTGVaA

There's also Scott Washburn's Paperterrian; www.paperterrain.com/
He sells historical pre-prints, and imho, they're kind of dull and over-priced. However, he has created a loyal customer base that his work appeals to.

[josedominguez]

I think the best approach would be a stand or part of a stand at a games convention..... rack them up and you'll be cleaned out. The problem is here that you are asking a group of paper modellers who all have access to various printing methods what they think. We aren't your market for pre-print because we are all so deep into this stuff that printing is second nature, we all ahve bulk paper/card or printing set up.
What you need is the opinion of some 'normal gamers' who haven't seen the quality of your stuff.
You need to get it to a games fair...... a table of your assembled stuff is stunning, it really looks like hand built sculpted terrain. Any pre-prints available there would sell out.

[afet]

Nov 19, 2010 7:53:49 GMT -9 josedominguez said:

I think the best approach would be a stand or part of a stand at a games convention..... rack them up and you'll be cleaned out. The problem is here that you are asking a group of paper modellers who all have access to various printing methods what they think. We aren't your market for pre-print because we are all so deep into this stuff that printing is second nature, we all ahve bulk paper/card or printing set up.
What you need is the opinion of some 'normal gamers' who haven't seen the quality of your stuff.
You need to get it to a games fair...... a table of your assembled stuff is stunning, it really looks like hand built sculpted terrain. Any pre-prints available there would sell out.

This is exactly right.

[Two foot Tom]

I would like pop out parts if you know what i mean so we dont have to bother with accidently slicing through the building with a hobby knife.
Oh and if i were to request or suggest a building; how about a fortified manor house of somekind ... just a thought

[ken]

I think a $30 - $40 price point would be great to see in a Brick and Mortar Store. Maybe reduce the number of buildings in each to 3-4 at that price. I would include your website on the packaging and maybe eliminate the cd.

The ziploc bags would be much better packaging than the shrink wrap, it would also allow the buyer to store uncut sheets till they're ready to assemble.

I would really like to see these for sale in different scales, mainly in 15mm, but thats just me

[kiladecus]

I am not sold on 15mm scale, Ken, sorry..

As far as the pre-printed sheets... That is kinda like buying a Wonka Bar, only to NOT find the Golden Ticket!

As far as I am concerned, Dave, YOU are the person that made Multi-layered PDF's the easiest kit-bach there is (and I am BIG on that).

I like to have my models look different than ANYONE elses, and your M-L PDF's do just that!

I REALLY enjoyed building your boats (Patrol and Rowboat) because I was able to customize them the way I wanted! I loved playing $40.000.00 because I loved to build the models, and paint then... (Bittersweet, because it took ALL the fun out of it at the same time because there was SO much work involved, but AHHH, the final result...).

Your M-L PDF's give the SAME satisfaction, and let's face it, you can customize and print one of your miniatures in MINUTES, and then build it. Tell me one OTHER company that offers the ability to have a model delivered to you that is PRE-PAINTED in just the COLORS and ACCESSORIES that you want... NOT MANY!!! (None outside of Papercraft)!

So, I say, MAKE SURE you include your M-L PDF's in the CD. That is your strong point! Exploit it.

Throw a lot of pictures arount this thing saying, "Here is the Tavern as it comes in the kit [with a picture of it built] and say, using my Multi-Layered PDF's you can also create "XX" variations using "XX" options."

See, I built the Smuggler's Rowboat. This was my FIRST model from you... I was able to add all of the accesories I wanted, change the color, add trim, give it a name, and on and on...

Why not tell people what they can do?!

On my Facebook Page, I have your Rowboat on there, and even mention that you have over 30 options that can create over 100 different models for $3.00!!

Let's face it, I never even knew what a M-L PDF was until I build Sir Rob's Gecko! I had more fun playing with the options and colors than I EVER did painting a model!

Ok, it is clear that I am long-winded, but I feel that you have a gift for these layers, and you need to tell people what you TRULY offer, and what they can do with your stuff!!

A single pre-drawn rowboat... yeah, ok... that's nice... BUT. OVER 100 MODELS and the ability to MODIFY them with your OWN colors and accessories... that is AWESOME!!

Ok, I will crawl back under my rock now...

[BilliamBabble Inked Adventures]

*Very quickly skims*

This is such a difficult one DagobahDave. I've been fantasising about producing a very similar pack, when I have a few more products out there, a CD with some print-outs. But I just can't make the maths work in my favour.

Your pack looks really great. The quality of your work justifies the $30 price, if not higher. I'm guessing that the cost of that amount of printing sends the price through the roof. You're packing a lot in there. How about just a few sheets of a standalone part of the model (or a single building) along with glossy photos of what's possible if people use the the models on CD. Then you could charge $10-$15, comparable to PDF prices and the store can still take a decent cut, perhaps. They'd sell like hot cakes. Also you can see it as advertising for the online sales, whilst creating a presence in real shops.
This where you can keep your unit cost and distribution weight right down.

Ker-ching!

(apologies if I've repeated anything mentioned in the posts above)

[ken]

Nov 20, 2010 7:46:34 GMT -9 kiladecus said:

I am not sold on 15mm scale, Ken, sorry..

Thats why I said "but thats just me."

I do think the WWII stuff would sell very well in 15mm scale. There are a lot of historical players out there. Flames of War is still a very popular rule set as well as Blitzkrieg Commander, both play with 15mm and good looking, easy to use (build, store, and play with) terrain would be a stong seller.

I personally would perfer to buy hard copies. After paper and Ink costs I'd spending about the same for these as if I just bought preprinted. It would also allow me to support the store I game at, rather than just using them as a place to play.

I think it all just comes down to finding a balance between cost, profit and time that would work for you Dave. I think your quality is above and beyond whats out there and selling your sets/buildings as a hardcopy in a gaming store would expand your customer base beyond just those who are already into paper modeling.

just my $.02

[kiladecus]

Don't stress it, Ken, I am NOBODY!

Your two cents carries more value than everything I have in my WHOLE WALLET... (I kinda would expect Parduz to ask that question, "What's in YOUR wallet?).

Ok. I know that the stuff my gaming group uses is 25-30mm, but I also recognize the need for 15mm!

So, please over-look me... like EVERYONE seems to!

Seriously, Great stuff, Dave!

[Dave]

Right now I'm thinking that the best way to offer pre-printed models would be something like this:

1 model worth of quality laser prints on cardstock, in a zipper bag. Because we're only talking about a few sheets of cardstock, we need to bring back the chipboard sheet to prevent bending.

I would use part of the first sheet to describe the model, show it off in its built form, and other trade dress. This means not having to print any sort of wrapper.

But there's more! I would make it clear that when you buy this model, you can get a bonus free PDF download of the model, including multi-layered versions. All I need to do is print the link on one of the pages deeper in the stack, so it's not visible from the outside.

If I did that, I could probably set up a pricing scheme (suggested retail price) like this:

3 page model: $4.99
4 page model: $5.99
5 page model: $6.99
6 page model: $7.99
7 page model: $8.99

If I did that, I could sell the prints directly through my site. I could offer the PDF download instantly when you order, and then you'll get your prints in the mail a bit later. Shipping costs would be yours to pay, and to get the most bang for your buck you'd want to order several models at once.

I could still get these into stores, but I wouldn't make very much on them. If you're not familiar with how this sort of thing works, basically I'd end up selling each model to a retail shop for about 60% of what I would charge you directly. They keep the remaining 40% as profit when they sell it. Just having products in a store is a great thing, since it's pretty sure to bring customers to my website (which is where I really want them).

Anyway, that's my plan for global domination. Think it'll work?

Nov 19, 2010 10:41:13 GMT -9 Two foot Tom said:

I would like pop out parts if you know what i mean so we dont have to bother with accidently slicing through the building with a hobby knife.

This might be possible, and I would certainly prefer to do offer this than uncut, unscored sheets. It really just comes down to the cost. If it's too high, the whole idea is shot.

But it's also possible that cutting/scoring would allow me to maximize which pieces I can get off of each page. That's potentially a big help.

Nov 19, 2010 10:41:13 GMT -9 Two foot Tom said:

Oh and if i were to request or suggest a building; how about a fortified manor house of somekind ... just a thought

It's on my wish list, too.

[Tommygun]

Nov 27, 2010 14:17:10 GMT -9 Dave said:

But there's more! I would make it clear that when you buy this model, you can get a bonus free PDF download of the model, including multi-layered versions. All I need to do is print the link on one of the pages deeper in the stack, so it's not visible from the outside.

Is there a way to do this where the person has to register on the site and get a unique password code for the down load?
This way if you get 100 downloads on the unique password you can disable that password.

[Dave]

I'm sure there are lots of ways to protect the downloads, if I want to. Right now I'm not too worried about it.

[Two foot Tom]

Nov 19, 2010 10:41:13 GMT -9 Two foot Tom said:

Oh and if i were to request or suggest a building; how about a fortified manor house of somekind ... just a thought

It's on my wish list, too.[/quote]

Exelent!! ;D