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Post by nikloveland on Feb 26, 2011 7:01:21 GMT -9
Sirrob has done a modification of the Terra Force miniatures and they are rather extensive. It has got me thinking about how do deal with modifications to paid sets.
I was thinking any mods over 25% of the entire set could just be included for free (if the modder wishes to share them) with the original set at the time of purchase. I think this allows for flexibility for all those modders out there that want to do a complete re-work of a set but still gives incentive to purchase the original. I realize '25%' is somewhat subjective but it's just a target number to give a rough guideline. I.e. three of a twelve model set=ok to give to anyone; three of a ten model set=include in the original download.
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Post by Parduz on Feb 26, 2011 9:07:29 GMT -9
There's something in this way to go that i don't like; nothing too strong, it is just a subtle bad feeling.... but i can't tell what it is and why, 'cause the reasoning of this guideline is fair and understandable. So this post basically worth nothing, but i want to give you how i feel about it anway  . |
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 26, 2011 9:28:36 GMT -9
I know the feeling.
I guess we'll see how things turn out, and not too many people will be turned away forever.
It's a work in progress ...
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Post by revgunn on Feb 26, 2011 11:59:29 GMT -9
Well, for my 2 cents, in tattooing, modification of flash or other art by more than 30% is considered a new image. Some friends of mine got in to a copyright dispute with Cherry Hill (the GW of tattoo flash) and that was what they were told. It opens up a huge can of worms. I've done some mods of Terra Force troopers too, (Floyd's) I'm not gonna post them. I changed the helmets, and the armor they have on, as well as a uniform re-color. The weapons were just too cool to change though.  A pure re-color, yeah, I can see the Sanity side of that. So, I guess the answer is, if you don't want your re-color to be a paid product (who all gets paid btw?) then you just draw your own stuff or keep em to yourself. I'm not in this for a business, that adds way too many responsibilities and has a real danger of turning a hobby I love in to a job I hate. If I don't feel like drawing, its no biggie, my stuff is free. No deadlines. I realize that Sanity's position on this has no malice involved, they just need cash flow and a return on an investment. Simply good business. I'm sure people have been looting the site since they became free. I know I did. But, I can also see how this move could cause some resentment. Not in my case, but... I'm an artist, I'll draw my own. Personally, I ONLY use paper minis. Storage, paint, expense, and limited choices pretty much turned me away from lead and plastic a while back. I'll still hang out and post here. I'll still share my work as long as it can be freely shared. But.. by allowing us to do that on this forum, does Sanity hurt their own business? |
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Post by Tommygun on Feb 26, 2011 12:18:00 GMT -9
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Post by emergencyoverride on Feb 26, 2011 13:20:55 GMT -9
But.. by allowing us to do that on this forum, does Sanity hurt their own business? I don't think so. Jim did it for years and it never hurt him. It was a way to get the figures that he would likely never get to, out to the members, and it took a little bit of pressure to do every figure in the monster manual or other places off his back. Plus just doing the figures for Bellicose that are in the rulebook will take several years. I also don't think that requiring more than 25% to be a give away with purchase is bad either. Many places do it, include WWG through their kitbash program and it works out well. 3 or 4 dollars here and there really isn't that much. People got spoiled when Jim made everything free and now they expect it. I am one of the guys that paid for everything before that happened and didn't think making them free was a good move to start with. It devalued them and set a bad precedent. Now trying to go back and set a price and some guidelines for sets causes this worry over 25% mods not being free. Just go with it. I believe it wont make a big difference either way and it will get everybody used to paying a decent price for sweet figs again. There really is no free lunch and I don't mind paying for things I'm going to use that also happens to be quality work. It's a win/win situation. Everybody enhance their calm and enjoy the forum. It'll work out! ;D (I realize that forum posts are bad as far as not conveying or confusing the intended emotion and therefore can be read the wrong way, and I just want to say that this was not posted with any meanness or anything like that in mind. Things don't always come out like I want them to sound. Its just me looking at the situation from several sides. ) |
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Post by nikloveland on Feb 26, 2011 13:57:48 GMT -9
it is just a subtle bad feeling.... Maybe it's the spicy peppers you ate last evening. But no really, if you have a better suggestion, let us know. It's a work in progress ... This is very true! I intended it to only be the person who orignally did the set. There's nothing that says the artist and modder couldn't come up with an agreement together and sell it. I just thought of covering the scenario where the modder wishes to share his mods (implying want's no compensation) but the artist is selling the set (does want compensation). Again, the mods are not being sold but distributed for the modder. I'll still hang out and post here. I'll still share my work as long as it can be freely shared. But.. by allowing us to do that on this forum, does Sanity hurt their own business? I think it's great to have such a diverse group of artist producing great gaming products. It's not really about our 'own business' anymore. When we bought One Monk, I feel like we have kinda become the ambassadors for paper minis (maybe I think too much of myself). It's true, we have a business and our own products but we could never come close to satisfying all the needs (really they're wants but we call them needs ;D) of miniatures gamers/hobbyists. We want to continue to provide a place for people to come for paper minis, whether they're ours or someone elses. Actually I'll include a bit from my email to Sir Rob since that's what started this whole discussion: "For me it's not really about the raw dollar amounts but the perceived value. I'm fully aware we won't get rich from paper mins (but I would like it to pay the website bill ). When you give it away, people don't take it quite as seriously. I know for me I'm much more likely to build something if it took some effort (monetary or otherwise) to get it. Even if I get it for free but it's normally a paid product (promotional) I think it's at least worth the MSRP (if it's a good product anyway). I also put more effort to make it look good (photo matte paper, ply-wood bases, etc). Anyway, I've rambled on enough. Those are just some of my ideas on pushing the paper mini hobby forward." I got to admit I hadn't seen those and they are nice. Don't take anything down until we've gone live with the website (which has an unfortunate slipping deadline) and even then there's going to be a generous grace period. Really the shields should stay up since that's not tied to the sets (but it would be nice to be able to include them with your mod in distribution too). EO posted after I wrote most of my post... yeah, I agree Thanks for the comments. |
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Post by Parduz on Feb 27, 2011 4:17:25 GMT -9
it is just a subtle bad feeling.... Maybe it's the spicy peppers you ate last evening. But no really, if you have a better suggestion, let us know. I have not, 'cause (as i said) i thing your solution is fair, and the reasoning behind it is true. Also i know that you want to promote the whole hobby (or at least all the artists in this forum) and not just your business, having saw the image of that CON with all that products on the table. And no, in don't eat spicy peppers (i can't handle anything spicy). Maybe it is just my different "approach" to this art. Seems that i am the only one that think that the price (or the lack of) does not add (or reduce) the value of the models and the minis. I don't like more a painting if its value is thousands of euros, i like a song equally if it comes from a 30€ booklet CD or from an indie artist site, and so i don't give more value to paper models or paper minis if they have a price instead of being free. So this may be reason of my subtle bad feeling but, as i said, i still have to find what exactly it is and why i have to have it since i rationally find the reasons behind this good and fair. This may also explain why i have no business "sense" at all |
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Post by Vermin King on Feb 27, 2011 5:24:11 GMT -9
My bad feelling is tied more to a perceived change in perspective.
Even at the old One Monk Store, there were core products sold. The Forum was to sponsor creativity and supply additional material to support the core products. Look at the variety of what was done. There was a general support of helping each of the originators to improve their art and if they chose to do so, have their work available in the store. For those that just wanted to Share their works, the forum was there and there was no queasiness that what they did was going to be restricted, or that their work was going to be included in a package for sale at the store.
Until we have things spelled out a bit more, I think people have the right to be a little concerned. A little more communication from the owners on direction would be appreciated. Even discussion, with the owners, of course, having final say, would help.
An uneasy calm has settled on the forums. Kind of a Waiting for the Shoe to Drop feeling. Reminds me of a married couple that aren't talking to each other, and each one is wondering what the other one is going to do next.
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Post by josedominguez on Feb 27, 2011 5:38:07 GMT -9
If we want our hobby to be taken more seriously, then paid minis is the only way to go. At the moment we only have those doing it for the love of it. If it becomes economically viable then more artists and producers will become involved. When Jim stopped producing figures the number of quality paper miniature releases slowed to a trickle. By that i mean true miniature style paper minis, not 'stand ups'. Jim released new stuff almost weekly and that kept my group interested in the product, we were happy to pay. Since Jim stopped the fantasy releases have slowed to the sanity studios monsters and human soldiers and two sets of dwarves from slick. I've searched online and realy can't find anything else. (with exceptions for the few sets artists ahve released here). I'm attempting to run warhammer fantasy battle at 15mm with paper minis as I really believe that a well produced paper army (on good bases) is as good as all but the best fully painted army of minis. However, I'd love to be able to buy these minis and not have to do any kitbashing, photoshopping etc. Problem is, at the moment that only really allows for an undead army and an elven army. THere just aren't enough mini sets out there for anything else (the ratmen got a rather marellous boost yesterday though!). One day it wil be possible to make a living creating these models..... they really should be available as pre-cuts and will be a staple in game stores when people come around to it. But as long as it remains an unpaid hobby the release rate will be slow. And face it, none of the sets available now will break the banks. I'm happy to pay $3.95 for a page of minis I'll print out 50 times. So bring on the prices and speed up the releases Where are Slick, Jabbro and Ken? I'd love to see DarkMook and some of the other artists doing some fantasy stuff too. Look at Sirrob's release schedule..... he keeps Song of fur and buttons players happy all on his own! I want dark elves, beastmen, orcs, goblins, lizardmen, wood elves and chaos. There are talented artists out there. Actually, how much to commission a page? At £23 for a single box of warhammer minis, I think we could probably get enough players together to commission artists directly. |
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Post by cowboyleland on Feb 27, 2011 18:33:38 GMT -9
Like Parduz, I have no business sense  and I don't value things more or less according to price. (My favourite bottled beer, Lakeport honey brown, is the cheapest one in the store.) But as a guy who feeds his family by working in theatre, I certainly agree that artists should get paid. I'm a little unclear how this will be "enforced." I just did one back for Hackbarth's BOPE. Suppose I go and do another back every three or four months and post them one at a time. Will anyone notice how many I have done? On the other hand, I recently I added chef's hats and aprons to one of Jim's goblins and his hobgoblin. I don't think posting those would really effect the sales of the originals or be much of an addition to the set. I'm not worked up about this, (ie my calm is enhanced )just thinking out loud. |
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Post by Adam Souza on Feb 27, 2011 19:58:20 GMT -9
Jim once said that the mods and recolors on this site would drive up sales of the set the were based on.
We were creating freebies that cost him nothing and drove up his sales.
Admittedly though, none of us had redone entire sets.
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Post by glennwilliams on Feb 28, 2011 7:27:12 GMT -9
I'm in between. Essentially a mod is a collaboration. If released separately, I can see a mod getting out of hand, taking off, and yet, the IP underlying the entire work gets no credit (money).
That said, why not give it a try and see? Maybe announce that the mods are available for 3- or 60 days and evaluate.
Even so, shouldn't the original artist have at least a right to say no even when the modded set is included as a bonus with his own original?
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Post by labrat on Mar 4, 2011 5:13:56 GMT -9
I think Nik's idea is a good one. It simply makes a way for mods to be available to anyone who has purchased the original set, rather than being available to the general public. I think it's a very small price to pay to have access to so many awesome paper minis.
Input and solutions are always welcome.
It's hard to say what solution will work best for everyone. It's hard to keep everyone happy, and you never can make everyone happy all of the time. But we will always try to be fair and to do what is best for this hobby in the long term.
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Post by vodswyld on Mar 4, 2011 5:45:15 GMT -9
First off, I would like to say that I have no problem with paid sets, and would happily buy more if they were made available, especially some of the sci-fi Terra Force stuff.
That being said, one of the reasons I like paper miniatures is because of the ease with which you can convert them via some simple GIMPage. I feel like at least the modded parts should be allowed to be shared.
I am one of the folks that did a recolor of almost all of the terraforce set. I also changed the helmet on the guys and made it into an enclosed mask. When I was doing it I broke that part off so I could easily dupe it to the other soldiers that has stuff like hats on. What if I were to release just the helmet mods I did? You would HAVE to get the original Terra Force stuff to use it, but you would also have to work in photoshop or GIMP to be able to use the mod.
Really not sure how best to handle this considering what is already out there.
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Post by labrat on Mar 4, 2011 6:22:26 GMT -9
I feel like at least the modded parts should be allowed to be shared. I am one of the folks that did a recolor of almost all of the terraforce set. I also changed the helmet on the guys and made it into an enclosed mask. When I was doing it I broke that part off so I could easily dupe it to the other soldiers that has stuff like hats on. What if I were to release just the helmet mods I did? You would HAVE to get the original Terra Force stuff to use it, but you would also have to work in photoshop or GIMP to be able to use the mod. Really not sure how best to handle this considering what is already out there. I actually think that is a very good idea. If you just allowed the sharing of the "modded parts" and not the entire set, then people have freedoms to customize their sets without a bunch of free sets floating around. A brilliant suggestion, and one that will be taken into consideration along with everything else. Thank you very much for your input. |
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Post by cowboyleland on Mar 4, 2011 7:21:42 GMT -9
Yep, I like.
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Post by josedominguez on Mar 5, 2011 2:53:53 GMT -9
Anything to increase release rates! If everything was charged for, it would still be a fraction of the price of 3D sculpts, the thing that's getting in the way of this revolutionising gaming is the fact that it's still a small market. Why? You can't pick up a rulebook an army book and then buy an entire army of figures as the release rates are too slow. Figs are hard to find and producers are rare. Speed it up and I think this will be a powerful industry, not just something cool enjoyed by a few enthusiasts. Jim should have been able to live comfortably from his art, but he couldn't.... we are getting wargames figures for next to nothing, but that's not enough, we want them for free. THe result is that the only people producing them are doing it as a hobby or a on rare occasions a small second business. Look at the quality of the Sanity monsters, satyrs and human army models..... why in God's name can't they be doing that full time? I'm about to start a Warhammer FB campaign with huge 5000 point armies, it's cost us next to nothing to buy all of the resources but it took ages to find anything. If we'd been buying 3D figures then the cost would have been astronomical. One PDF of human soldiers from sanity provides most of the core troops for an empire army (around 300 models when it's complete) they cost the same as a packet of ten plastic bases. Keep them coming |
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Post by labrat on Mar 5, 2011 5:50:23 GMT -9
It's the sane thing to do. ;D
...sorry... couldn't help myself.
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Post by josedominguez on Mar 5, 2011 10:06:47 GMT -9
True though Our games look as good (probably better) as they did with 3D minis, it doesn't take as long to make them and it's a fraction of the cost. Paper Mini Pros: Much more variety quicker to make easier to transport more convenient to use in a game (magnetic bases and steelpaper movement trays are a dream). Cons: GW executives can no longer afford gold plated houses |
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and I don't value things more or less according to price. (My favourite bottled beer, Lakeport honey brown, is the cheapest one in the store.) But as a guy who feeds his family by working in theatre, I certainly agree that artists should get paid. I'm a little unclear how this will be "enforced." I just did one back for Hackbarth's BOPE. Suppose I go and do another back every three or four months and post them one at a time. Will anyone notice how many I have done? On the other hand, I recently I added chef's hats and aprons to one of Jim's goblins and his hobgoblin. I don't think posting those would really effect the sales of the originals or be much of an addition to the set. I'm not worked up about this, (ie my calm is enhanced 
