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Post by Dave on Jun 11, 2011 11:21:30 GMT -9
I'm in talks with someone about providing printed, pre-cut and perforated versions of my models. Some of you have asked about this and it's time to talk dollars and cents.
The question is, how much would you expect to pay per page for a pre-cut, perforated, ready-to-glue printed model? There would of course be some postage on top of these costs.
We've heard and discussed all of the pros and cons, and obviously this isn't something everyone will be interested in. But the only thing that we don't know is what people who do want physical prints are willing to pay for this sort of service. If your expectations are close to what we're thinking about charging, then there's a good chance we'll start offering that option for some models.
So if you're the kind of person who would be interested in this, please throw me a dollar amount per page that you'd be likely to pay. Keep in mind that a very small model might fit on 1 or 2 pages. Most of my models take 4 to 6 pages, and some of my larger models take 10 to 15 pages.
If you don't want to post your answers here, feel free to send me a personal message or email luminousbeings@yahoo.com.
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Post by Adam Souza on Jun 11, 2011 12:02:34 GMT -9
$1 a Page
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Post by Dave on Jun 11, 2011 13:00:13 GMT -9
Thanks, Adam. Definitely on the low side of what we were hoping, but not unexpected.
It's just occurred to me that papercrafters such as ourselves, who really take advantage of the affordability of creating our own terrain, may not be the best customers for this sort of thing.
Game shops and convention organizers could be our audience. I don't think it would be too tough to convince those folks that paper models that are ready-to-build will save them time and money. They won't have to worry about people walking off with their expensive resin models. They won't have to take products off their shelves in order to create gaming terrain, and players showing up for a tourney or convention over the weekend don't need terrain that's going to last forever (although of course, paper terrain can last for years). And they have somewhat deeper pockets than we do, but less time to futz with the printing, cutting and scoring.
That could be the way to go and still get what we're hoping to get for providing the service.
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Post by Vermin King on Jun 11, 2011 13:10:43 GMT -9
I had a model I was doing for someone else, that I had printed up at Staples so that it would look that much better. Not pre-cut, but still it was $.25 with me supplying the paper.
Time savings and better print quality would be what would lure me into purchasing Pre-Print/Pre-Cut models.
My mom still has a cardstock Independence Hall I did back during the Bi-Centennial. 35 years old roughly and it still looks good. It was pre-print/pre-cut and if I remember right it was about $15 in 1976 dollars. I think it was just under $2 a page back then.
If quality is very good, I would think that $2.50 to $3.50 would be very reasonable. If it is totally knock-your-socks-off good, maybe more.
The big question to me is how much is shipping going to run on this?
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Post by Tommygun on Jun 11, 2011 15:31:35 GMT -9
How thick is the paper you are thinking about using.
I have seen some models made from 1/16 inch chip board that are slotted together.
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Post by hackbarth on Jun 11, 2011 16:57:21 GMT -9
It would be hard to buy a physical product for me. Postage alone colud be on the order of 5$-10$, and if this gets classified as game (books are tax-free) by customs, I would pay 60% over the price+shipping.
But if that was sold (and posted from) here in Brazil I would pay 5$ a sheet.
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Post by Dave on Jun 11, 2011 16:58:41 GMT -9
Right now we're sticking with exactly the same stuff you'd use at home: 110# paper, printed using a CIS, cut and perforated with a Silhouette. I haven't yet seen the quality of the prints and cuts so this may all be moot.
Of course I'd love to offer thicker stuff with slot-fits, but realistically that's not going to happen any time soon. That sort of thing requires a serious re-engineering of my model designs and probably some costly R&D.
Hm. I just had a "dream big" moment and realized there's one game company in particular that I should approach with this idea. I know they have the resources and following to make the most out of something like this. I'm going to be ballsy and write that email. Wish me luck.
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Post by Vermin King on Jun 11, 2011 17:38:55 GMT -9
Good Luck
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Post by josedominguez on Jun 12, 2011 1:33:36 GMT -9
I'd suggest that you include some testimonials from some of the posters here....... a brief word on how we use your stuff, why it's the best scenery out there etc......
My group would be only to happy to add to it.
Pre-printed and cut: £3 a sheet.
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Post by Floyd on Jun 12, 2011 4:04:16 GMT -9
My thoughts:
Small kits 1-2 pages? ($3-$5)
Medium Kits ($4-$8)
Large $8-$15
some basic examples:
Cabin $3.00 w/Interior $5.00
Ruined Long House $4.00
Warehouse $4-$5
Widows House $7.00
Chapel $12
Any of the Gates/Inventors House $15
I might suggest 80lb Cover Stock(eg.Hammermill) as its more rigid, a brighter smoother substrate. It's perfect for buildings that have large flat areas like buildings as it is far likely less to warp. Costs are comparable to #110lb cardstock. Works fine in the silhouette.
Will
(I print mostly through a Commercial grade color Laser and these come out looking like high grade pro prints).
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Post by Adam Souza on Jun 12, 2011 12:07:14 GMT -9
It's just occurred to me that papercrafters such as ourselves, who really take advantage of the affordability of creating our own terrain, may not be the best customers for this sort of thing. I believe you are correct, and that's really going to be the main concern. You make a cool new model. I feel the impulse to buy. 5 minutes later I've downloaded and printed it I spend time cutting it out, which is not so much fun. I spend time building it, which I enjoy. I show off the new model to my wife, who could care less. Verses. You make a cool new model. I feel the urge to buy. I weight the cost difference between printing it myself and buying it preprinted, plus the cost of shipping. It gets printed and punched, maybe next business day It travels to the post office, maybe next business day. It travels to my house 2+ days I spend time building it, which I enjoy. I show off the new model to my wife, who could care less. Most of us, who frequent here, are already equipped to print our own models Prefab models could reach an entirely different audience, but you would probably have to reach out to find it. |
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Post by noremorse on Jun 12, 2011 12:44:21 GMT -9
As I approached Dave with this idea, the thought was to market paper models as a fast, easy and less expensive way to fill your war gaming table with scenery. Paper modellers will rarely buy into this stuff, that we understand. The fact is typical war gamers want to spend their money on shiny new models and most care less about scenery, but would love to have a nice table to play on. This is the perfect niche for paper models. It may or may not fly, its a risk I am most certainly willing to take. Proper marketing to our target customer is the key, as with all business endeavors.
That being said we are still in the preliminary brain storming phase and nothing may come of it. I am trying to work my end for suppliers etc. and Dave is checking into using chipboard, rather than going with my method. Either way this may come to nothing, but we both hope that Dave's business is able to grow and we see a lot more great models from him!
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Post by Parduz on Jun 12, 2011 13:49:16 GMT -9
While i'd like to have pre-cut miniatures, i don't feel that need for your models, 'cause they're so much simpler to cut... a mini is a whole lot of tiny, convoluted curves: cutting a sheet of miniatures requires to me 3-5 times the time i need to cut out one of your model (all sheets).
It may be different for a whole "Village Pack": i could see shy i'd like to build 12-15 precut models... making them all will kill a lot of my time. But my rythm is less than one house (the simplest ones) per week,
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Post by dcbradshaw on Jun 12, 2011 15:41:40 GMT -9
I second Parduz; comparatively, Graffam models are just easy to slice.
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Post by noremorse on Jun 13, 2011 3:36:16 GMT -9
I agree that paper minis would be better suited for paper modellers to have pre-cut/ pre-print, but again we are trying to market Dave's models to non paper modellers. And the idea would be to have orders of a half dozen or more buildings at time, I can't honestly imagine a person just ordering a single building unless it was a large model. Think of it more like a table full of scenery in a box/envelope.
Of course, I would fully be willing to market paper minis as well, but I do not believe they would have as wide a market, since there is still an unfortunate and silly stigma attached to paper models in the mainstream gaming community.
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Post by Parduz on Jun 13, 2011 4:58:32 GMT -9
I can't honestly imagine a person just ordering a single building unless it was a large model. Well, i don't know what percentage of gamers i represent, but i'll be one of that persons  I don't play GDRs with minis, and i use Dave models for tiny skirmish games (mostly Song of Blade and Heroes) basically as "unpassable terrain / LOS Blockers". So, with the exception of some unbelievable bundle offers, i'll buy some spare model just to renew the scenery. Always talking about me, i'd like to try a modern skirmish (think at "Black Hawk Down" movie): that day i'll need a full "north-african" village . |
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Post by Adam Souza on Jun 13, 2011 5:10:51 GMT -9
I think bundles would be the way to go then.
Figure out how many models you could offer for $20 and make a package deal out of it.
$20 for enough scenery to, loosley, cover a 4x4 playing area would meet most casual gamer needs, for most mass battle fantasy games.
Single building will never sell as well as a bundle like this. They would also be more accepted in retail outlets as bigger sets, as opposed to single buildings.
Retailers dreaded the old D&D metal models. There would always bee some that were unpopular and remain on the shelves untill they put them on clearance. When they went plastic and bundled people would buy up the bundles and there would be no black sheep left on the shelf.
Let's use an outhouse as an example. Some fans of Dave's creations would want an outhouse for their village, but not everyone would buy it if it was a solo model. Included in a set, it would sell every time a set was sold.
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Post by Vermin King on Jun 13, 2011 6:07:43 GMT -9
As Parduz said, there are many that want a single building, but I think that single building purchasers would just download it and go.
Bundling would make it much more practical for merchandising. Shipping wouldn't be such an overwhelming obstacle then either.
I was looking at some of Dave's bundles and my first thought was that it would sit on my shelf for a while because that would be a bunch of stuff to cut out. Pre-printed and Pre-cut would definitely make it more attractive, even at a higher price point.
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Post by noremorse on Jun 13, 2011 6:32:45 GMT -9
I was actually thinking of a few marketing options. The obvious is the bundle deals (maybe 10-15% regular cost per page), second; is price per page for people without the time to cut or ability to get good quality prints that wish to have multilayer buildings done and lastly; is a set price for stock prepared models depending upon their size. And of course, there could be the possibility of free shipping with bulk orders, but I will have to weigh the cost/benefit of that.
I believe it would be the bundle deals that would so the best, and would be beneficial both to the customer and myself, as I could have bundle's printed off and ready to ship immediately, same goes for stock models. "Custom" buildings would require a day or two to get printed/cut and shipped.
I appreciate everyone's input, the more opinions the better as you may have thought of something we didn't.
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Post by old squirmydad on Jun 13, 2011 9:27:17 GMT -9
Take a look at Scott Washburn's business at paperterrain.com
Not pre-cut, sells as sets/bundles, no free postage-> postage will kill you if you start giving it away. He seems to do well with his products.
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Post by noremorse on Jun 13, 2011 10:00:26 GMT -9
Good example of a business model similar to ours. Thanks for pointing that out, I had seem it before but forgot about them.
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Post by gilius on Jun 13, 2011 12:22:27 GMT -9
My opinion isn't that useful since shipping would probably make it too expensive for me. Supposing it wasn't an issue, I'd pay US$2 (maybe US$3) a page. Currently it costs me around US$1 a page to print on cheap matte "photo paper" (sort of) on my home printer -- this is a very rough estimate. Still, that's not as thick as 110# paper and I assume the print quality would surpass my basic printer. Then there's the matter of cutting which takes time and is prone to errors. The notion of bypassing all of this, especially if building a large set of models, sounds really great. I'd second Adam Souza in that bundles look more attractive, for saving on shipping if nothing else. If this is mostly a print-and-cut-on-demand business, people might be able to make their own bundles. When I think about the modular sets such as walls, fences and tiles, that ability to customize might be a necessity.
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Post by Vermin King on Jun 13, 2011 13:45:46 GMT -9
Ooo ... Build-a-Bundle
I like the sound of that, but I'm not sure how manageable it would be
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Post by noremorse on Jun 13, 2011 14:15:16 GMT -9
I think Build-a-Bundle is quite manageable, but may be a bit in the future. Right now my main concern is to get Dave's most recent buildings done up in GSD and offer them (Rake's Corner and later). Once I have those done as I get time I will work on his earlier builds. Build-a-Bundle would be even simpler if all people wanted were the "stock" single layered buildings as I could get those printed off in large numbers in preparation, not having to send them to the printer's one at a time. Of course, if business really takes off (you never know  ) I would eventually look at doing all my printing in house, but a $1500 investment for a Laser Colour is beyond me as it stands. I am seriously considering offering pre-orders a month before I actually begin shipping, that way I could judge what demand will be like and have enough stock and materials on hand for casual orders after launch. As it stands right now I am preparing for 100 orders, I have no idea if that is low balling or not. Dave and I have had a price point in mind for a few days now and it seems to fall within everyone's opinion, but final price will depend upon all my suppliers and how much overstock I can reasonably order at one time. Keeping in mind I am trying to keep initial investment as low as possible and still maintain high customer service. |
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Post by Adam Souza on Jun 13, 2011 17:45:11 GMT -9
$1500  How about $50 a month ? www.freecolorprinters.xerox.com/ Apply for a free color laser printer. If you get accepted, they'll send you a top of the line solid ink color laser printer for free, but you have to pay for the ink. If you don't get accepted, they'll make you an offer of $50-$75 a month for the printer, but you get the ink free. A friend of mine runs a local buissiness and he qualified for the FREE printer. You have to print a minimum amount of pages per month, something like 500+ and fax them a report at the end of month. I didn't qualify for the FREE printer, but they made me the offer of $50 a month for the printer, with free ink. I wasn't doing paper modelling back then, so I really didn't have a need of a printer that badly. Now a days I have a Cannon Color Laser, I caught on sale for $350. The photo quality is fnatastic, but I don't know how economical it would be for high print runs. In any case, you should look into the Xerox Printer deal. $50 a month to give you the ability to print on demand is something to seriously look into. |
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Post by Dave on Jun 13, 2011 18:19:45 GMT -9
I think that 500+ copies a month requirement probably kills that deal. I don't think we'll get that many orders.
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Post by pblade on Jun 13, 2011 18:48:35 GMT -9
The biggest question that occurs to me, is how are the pieces going to be shipped? Will they be similar to the older style of perforated pages that you punch the pieces out from, or loose pieces in some sort of package?
The first option would probably ship cheapest, and offer an easy way to bundle models via binding. Bound sets/bundles would also probably be most attractive to any 'traditional' merchants.
The second option provides clean outer edges & seems easier for you to ship. You could even offer "convention bundles" that include glue & black pen in them.
Good luck, guys!
- Pb
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Post by Adam Souza on Jun 13, 2011 19:56:39 GMT -9
I think that 500+ copies a month requirement probably kills that deal. I don't think we'll get that many orders. That was to get the free printer. If you willing to pay the $50 a month, it doesn't matter how many copies you print. |
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Post by Dominic on Jun 14, 2011 2:44:27 GMT -9
First thing that came to my mind is that you'd need to take care that the cut pages do not get bent during transport, for example when inserted forcefully into a postbox. Granted, it wouldn't kill the model, but it might be inconvenient, so you'd need to use stronger envelopes... Just a thought.
As for my opinion, i guess I'm one of those who'd rather print and cut their models for themselves. Maybe that's because I own a CIS and an automated cutter...
Also, if I buy a product online, I can print out as many copies - when I buy a precut version that is not the case.
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Post by Parduz on Jun 14, 2011 3:49:37 GMT -9
Maybe that's because I own a CIS and an automated cutter... It may be a good reason, yes |
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) I would eventually look at doing all my printing in house, but a $1500 investment for a Laser Colour is beyond me as it stands.
