|
|
Post by noremorse on Jun 14, 2011 4:23:03 GMT -9
Thanks for the suggestion on the laser printer. I try to avoid contracts of any sort, I have been burned in the past and would rather buy straight out then rent to own or any similar payment plans. On the same vein is I was doing orders of above 500 prints a month, I would be buying a laser printer and a couple more cutters in short order, simply to keep up with demand. That would be a problem I wouldn't mind having though lol.
They are going to be cut pieces in a resealable poly bag. One bag per model so pieces don't get confused in large orders.
That was one of the first things I tackled was to find a supplier of fortified envelopes and cardboard sheets, for extra security.
That thought had crossed my mind as something which may be offered in the future with large bundle deals, or as a separate add-on to orders.
One thing I will point out is no matter how cheap it is to print off a CIS, the quality is still limited by the fact it is still a desktop printer and typically not on professional paper. As well, Archival ink is a little lower quality than standard ink, and much lower than a colour laser printer. I own a CIS and my original plan was to use that, but I wanted much better quality for commercial use.
Keep the ideas coming, the more input we have the more we can customize our service to what people want.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dominic on Jun 14, 2011 5:07:01 GMT -9
One thing I will point out is no matter how cheap it is to print off a CIS, the quality is still limited by the fact it is still a desktop printer and typically not on professional paper. As well, Archival ink is a little lower quality than standard ink, and much lower than a colour laser printer. I own a CIS and my original plan was to use that, but I wanted much better quality for commercial use. Good point. But come to think of it, I have printed in draft quality for most of my time printing roleplaying stuff, and I found that - besides being cheap on ink usage - any model printed in normal quality looks out of place in a setting made up of draft quality stuff. Which does not really concern the subject at hand... |
|
|
|
Post by noremorse on Aug 9, 2011 8:38:38 GMT -9
Hey all, here's a small announcement concerning the prepared prints/cuts for Dave's models.
I am getting very close to making Dave's Models available. To begin with I will be offering everything in the Jan-May 2011, the Oct-Dec 2010 and Maritime Buildings Bundle, as well as his most recent buildings, namely the Townhouse and Inventor's House. Other bundles will be added as I get the GSD files done and any adjustments made on older PDFs to make them work.
For general orders only the single layered models will be available. For those interested in "custom" multilayer buildings and who own Dave's PDF's will have that option available, but it will require a couple of days processing as I will have to design the files and get them printed before I can cut them.
Introductory price will be set at $2.00 per page, add $.50 per page for optional Premium service (done with double cuts rather than perforations for the fold lines). This does not include the price of shipping, which I have yet to set a price for. There will be a discount of 10% for orders over 25 pages, if that is well received a further discount may come into effect for larger orders.
The prints are done professionally with laser colour on a semi-gloss 110lb coated card stock. They will be shipped in a reinforced envelope along with a piece of corrugated cardboard to keep the envelope more stiff.
Unfortunately, I can't set a release date as of yet as there is still plenty of work to do before I can officially announce a date, but there will be a 2 week pre-order window before the official launch. I hope to have the first batch to the printer's this week, I am working as fast and as meticulous as I can. There has been many issues that have popped up out of the blue, so I have had to delay my own initial date and I would be loathe to announce a date only to have to renege on it.
All the information will be available on Dave's site when everything is set to go. I think that's everything for now!
|
|
|
|
Post by Christopher Roe on Aug 9, 2011 11:50:23 GMT -9
I've actually been down this road before. I'd like to offer some words of encouragement and experience. 1. Don't feel too dejected if they don't sell as well as you would like at first. You're fighting an uphill battle with the PDF crowd, and this is very much a "you don't know what you're missing until you actually see it in the flesh" sort of thing. Everyone who I sent out test precuts to loved the things, but most of them were in the "not interested" camp before they received their test copies. 2. It's a lot of work. Realistically, you're charging too little for each page right now. It took me several hours to process 64 frames of moderate complexity, and I came to the conclusion that this sort of thing really needs several machines operating in tandem, and this was also why I "invented" the disposable carrier sheet. The more pages there are in the file, the less profitable it is, because you'll reach a point where the labor cost alone exceeds what people are willing to pay for the thing. 3. Paper is heavier than people expect. Shipping won't be cheap, and envelopes do not offer enough protection. The ones I sent out in stiff mailers usually showed up in a pretty chewed-up state, and postmen have this tendency to try and roll up or fold large mailers to fit them into slots and mail cubbies. You need to box them. I liked the variable depth 9.5x12 mailers I used for the purpose. 4. The margins on this sort of thing will be extremely low. Most people get into this hobby because they're...well, not to put too fine a point on it, a bit frugal. You can't charge a lot before people start resisting, and that includes shipping costs. You can't really sink shipping into margins, so you either need to subsidize it with download sales or accept that you're going to lose money from the get-go. 5. Your first customers are going to come from a market that's filled with unrealistic expectations. You need a plan to deal with replacement frames (because paper models are easier to mess up than plastic models, and people will expect you to replace them because that comes with the PDF mindset), and many of these people will also balk at the thought of buying replacements. (PDFs are a buy-once kind of thing, it's hard to shake that expectation.) 6. Things will seem a bit slow in the beginning. Your initial market will consist of people who are already biased towards preprinted/precut models and people who are curious. Word of mouth may result in more people taking a chance on the preprint/precut models, but you may want to consider targeting a different market entirely. Take PaperTerrain as an example--they don't do PDFs at all, and they do enough business off the "I hate PDF" crowd that it's a full time thing for them. Be prepared to accept that this is a product best aimed at a different market, and manage your marketing strategy accordingly. I think that's it for now. If you have any other questions, I'll try and answer them to the best of my ability.  |
|
|
|
Post by noremorse on Aug 9, 2011 12:10:46 GMT -9
Thank you very much for that! I value your experience in this.
I will definitely take it all into consideration.
The $2 price tag is the introductory offer, to hopefully garner interest in the product. If I find that I have to raise prices I will, but only if I absolutely have to, if I can keep the price low and still make it worth my while I will. Right now during proofing my time is about 5 min per page, taking into account mounting on the carrier sheet etc. I have 5 carrier sheets going now and I cut the time down considerably. For me this a side venture, and I have no expectations as to how much/little I will sell.
I am glad I had not committed to a shipping method yet, I think you may definitely be right on the money about sending boxes.
My marketing is going to be directed towards the "average" gamer who does not want to spend hours putting together a single building, then painting the thing. Given an afternoon you could assemble an entire table worth of scenery with paper models, and its much easier to store.
Thanks again! I will take advantage of your offer and pick your brain further, as the release date looms closer.
|
|
|
|
Post by Floyd on Aug 10, 2011 6:21:12 GMT -9
I've actually been down this road before. I'd like to offer some words of encouragement and experience. 1. Don't feel too dejected if they don't sell as well as you would like at first. You're fighting an uphill battle with the PDF crowd, and this is very much a "you don't know what you're missing until you actually see it in the flesh" sort of thing. Everyone who I sent out test precuts to loved the things, but most of them were in the "not interested" camp before they received their test copies. 2. It's a lot of work. Realistically, you're charging too little for each page right now. It took me several hours to process 64 frames of moderate complexity, and I came to the conclusion that this sort of thing really needs several machines operating in tandem, and this was also why I "invented" the disposable carrier sheet. The more pages there are in the file, the less profitable it is, because you'll reach a point where the labor cost alone exceeds what people are willing to pay for the thing. 3. Paper is heavier than people expect. Shipping won't be cheap, and envelopes do not offer enough protection. The ones I sent out in stiff mailers usually showed up in a pretty chewed-up state, and postmen have this tendency to try and roll up or fold large mailers to fit them into slots and mail cubbies. You need to box them. I liked the variable depth 9.5x12 mailers I used for the purpose. 4. The margins on this sort of thing will be extremely low. Most people get into this hobby because they're...well, not to put too fine a point on it, a bit frugal. You can't charge a lot before people start resisting, and that includes shipping costs. You can't really sink shipping into margins, so you either need to subsidize it with download sales or accept that you're going to lose money from the get-go. 5. Your first customers are going to come from a market that's filled with unrealistic expectations. You need a plan to deal with replacement frames (because paper models are easier to mess up than plastic models, and people will expect you to replace them because that comes with the PDF mindset), and many of these people will also balk at the thought of buying replacements. (PDFs are a buy-once kind of thing, it's hard to shake that expectation.) 6. Things will seem a bit slow in the beginning. Your initial market will consist of people who are already biased towards preprinted/precut models and people who are curious. Word of mouth may result in more people taking a chance on the preprint/precut models, but you may want to consider targeting a different market entirely. Take PaperTerrain as an example--they don't do PDFs at all, and they do enough business off the "I hate PDF" crowd that it's a full time thing for them. Be prepared to accept that this is a product best aimed at a different market, and manage your marketing strategy accordingly. I think that's it for now. If you have any other questions, I'll try and answer them to the best of my ability. Invaluably good advice Mel. I hadn't considered replacement frames for screw ups... that's a really good point. And one that could become overwhelmingly cumbersome very quickly. How does one handle that so that : 1. You don't get the unscrupulous whom want an entire extra model for free ? 2. For the honest bloke whom really did either receive a damaged set or was just ham handed in its assembly. The way I see it to my untrained eye you could have them send back the damaged piece for a 1:1 replacement. Or I guess they could photograph the damaged frame and e-mail it. - The ham handed situation might be a case where... the customer would need to pay for a per-frame replacement. But later, if business is good, it might be better to just replace the frame for them for free or for just shipping charges. And where would you see a sweat spot in # of machines/cost effective? 3 cutters? Anymore than 3 I would imagine you are entering into the realm of $$$ where purchasing a 24"-31" cutter (cheap ones around $300) and either getting rolls printed or mounting the individual pages to be cut, would be a serious consideration. But beyond the means of the average hobbyist/entrepreneur. Speaking of markets... Anything that's made of paper, especially thin card such as this I would be hesitant to pay a lot for because of its delicate nature (And because I am a hobby gamer/modeler with easy access to Laser prints. And now a cutter. And a desire to do both...) The next level up from Cardstock terrain is GW Card buildings and Terrlinx pre-prints. They are a level greater in durability. And I would consider both to be just one step below a molded piece of terrain (plastic/resin). Less durable than resin/cast stuff. But with careful care should last many years. I still have all my card terrain from GW 1990s) and its all still in fine condition. The biggest benefits of this of course being pre-printed, pre-cut ready to assemble nature. So I am not the target market. I imagine the target market is the guy/girl whom wants a nice set of terrain for their games. But has neither the inclination, time or money to create, print, paint their own. But wants to get something that's ready to go(or nearly ready to go out of the box) and for a price point which meets the perception. Most likely the Gamer/Game Master/Family guy and less the modeling hobbyist. I might enter Game Designer and Store owner as well. AS this would be a great low-cost, high visual appeal for getting your games demo'd at conventions and game clubs. ~Just thinking out loud~ apologies for any jumps in logic. Floyd ~~ also, I will be buying some sets because I support the hobby. And it would be nice to not have to print/cut everything all the time. :-) |
|
|
|
Post by noremorse on Aug 10, 2011 7:20:10 GMT -9
You mentioned some good points Floyd, some of which I had considered myself. Replacement frames could be an issue, I think you had a great idea for photo evidence. I will be hand inspecting each frame as they go through the cutter, so manufacturing problems won't be an issue, thus any claims of bad cuts etc. will be eliminated. I am not keen on replacing frames for bad modelling, thus I will be sending EXPLICIT instructions as to how to assemble the models, but everyone makes mistakes. Initially I wouldn't have a problem sending out a frame, if profit allows, but the customer would have to pay postage. Other wise I would have to ask for payment for the replacement, as Mel pointed out the profit margin is very thin and one free frame might take me 5-6 frames to make up for, which basically equates to an entire building. I am not in this for making tonnes of money, but if I can't manage a moderate profit for my time I will have to raise my prices, which I think will kill my sales. Price point was a very sticky issue, I am starting low with the introductory offer, and hopefully I can keep prices near that range. But you can put into per building terms. If you look at WWG recent chipboard buildings you basically get a 2 or 3 buildings for $60, comparing that to paper buildings you get 30 frames for that, or about 6-10 medium sized buildings (assuming 3 to 5 frames per building). As an aside I am still not convinced about the durability of the WWG game stuff with constant breakdown/reassembly, but that is a different issue. The other thing to keep in mind for the standard paper modeller is that these are all being printed on semi-gloss coated card stock on a professional laser colour printer, which is far and away nicer than most modellers have access too. And pre-cut means more time for building/kit bashing. I HIGHLY doubt unless a modeller has access to cheap but quality prints and a cutter they could beat this price, even with the cost of shipping. I would love to have tandem machines working and I hadn't thought of getting the buildings printed out on a roll and feeding the entire thing into the silhouette as it can handle up to 10' in cuts, but I have no idea the inner workings of that yet, and will only attempt it if demand becomes to high for the standard method to handle. I was thinking about getting a larger cutter, but with the new Cameo coming out that will solve that problem  Here's hoping I make enough by October to justify the expense of another machine lol. Keep it coming guys, you have my mind racing with ideas as to how to improve efficiency and customer service. |
|
|
|
Post by cowboyleland on Aug 11, 2011 16:41:18 GMT -9
How about returning the damaged frame along with a self addressed lable and sufficient stamps in the box it was delivered in? You get the evidence and recycle the boxes too.
|
|
|
|
Post by noremorse on Aug 14, 2011 5:30:52 GMT -9
First set of PDFs ready to go to the printer! Approx. 190 pages for just one run. Lots of background work to do to get prepared for sales.
|
|
|
|
Post by pblade on Aug 14, 2011 6:28:39 GMT -9
Good luck!
I do have a question though - will there be a way for those of us with Dave's older stuff to get copies of the cutter-friendly versions? I know I'd love to get them.
I'll probably order at least one of the pre-cut sets, just to look at the print difference. Personally, the matte look I get with my inkjet is one I really like. Dave's textures on his fantasy buildings just look really good like that.
- Pb
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Aug 14, 2011 7:02:24 GMT -9
I do have a question though - will there be a way for those of us with Dave's older stuff to get copies of the cutter-friendly versions? I know I'd love to get them. That's one of the goals of this project, but updating the older models is probably going to be a couple-years-long process. |
|
|
|
Post by noremorse on Aug 14, 2011 14:04:27 GMT -9
You mean the GSDs? Dave is correct for him to update all his files would take a VERY long time. Many of the older models need numerous GSD layers due to having so many options available (not that I am complaining about the amount of variability), as well most need work on the PDFs to make sure they fit with the within the cutting area, so I have to truly custom make each PDF and GSD file for each order as they come it for those older buildings. Thus even the GSD files I made are useless to anyone but me as they don't fit his current PDFs. In doing his Maritime Buildings bundle I had upwards of 25 GSD files for a single building! Along with having to rearrange a couple of the PDFs.
Honestly, I think Dave's energies are better spent making amazing new models, than doing all that work making cutter files available for the few who own a cutter.
I do plan on doing my best to make all of Dave's models available for sale printed and cut, but this is going to be a long process, one I will take bundle by bundle.
Obviously finish is a matter of personal preference. I am going to see what I can do to get them done on a Satin finish rather than Semi-Gloss, but it may require a significant financial investment for me to do that i.e. buying 5000 prints up front. Which is not something I can even conceive of right now. Mind you... if this becomes bigger than my wildest expectations lol
Dave's textures look great no matter the medium lol. Even though I say this myself, on a laser printer and semi gloss finish the small details in the textures are so crisp and clean, it truly does make them come alive.
|
|
|
|
Post by noremorse on Aug 15, 2011 5:58:11 GMT -9
A quick double post update. Just got back from the printer's and they had exactly what I was looking for in paper, 10pt (approx 110lb card stock), with a smooth matte finish. I ran off 440 prints.... maybe a little optimistic, but I hope not I also found out they run off the prints on 11x17 paper, so I could convert my GSD files to compensate and cut two pages at once! That will take a bit of work, especially on the multiple option files but I will look into more next time I run some prints off, for now I left them on 8.5 x 11. |
|
|
|
Post by pblade on Aug 15, 2011 7:35:40 GMT -9
Yep, I have a pretty good idea about the work involved making cut files for the older buildings. I've tried making them myself. Lots of work involved, even before considering all the layers involved.
I look forward to seeing what ends up being available. I definitely intend on trying this out. Can't really comment on finish & such without having product in hand, after all.
Your order form will probably be an adventure by itself, given all the options Dave's stuff has. ;D
- Pb
|
|
|
|
Post by noremorse on Aug 15, 2011 7:49:59 GMT -9
To make it easy on myself I am only offering prepared models for the general public. For those who own Dave's PDFs and want custom models, they may contact me with the details of what they would like.
My shipping supplies were just ordered. Not cheap! The most expensive part of this venture so far.
|
|
|
|
Post by oldschooldm on Aug 24, 2011 10:23:31 GMT -9
Ooh. Do you have a site? I have a cutter and printer. I'd buy the GSDs alone if you post them. But would consider buying them pre-printed/cut as well... (At least the one's I don't have yet.)
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Aug 24, 2011 10:53:48 GMT -9
Ooh. Do you have a site? I have a cutter and printer. I'd buy the GSDs alone if you post them. But would consider buying them pre-printed/cut as well... (At least the one's I don't have yet.) We don't yet have a site for this stuff, but we'll get something together by the time this thing is ready to launch. There's a lot to figure out still. I hadn't thought about selling the GSDs! But I think we're always planning to release those for free. The problem you'll have is that my original PDFs don't have registration marks (yet). It's one of our long-term projects to go through my catalog and add reg marks and GSDs to all of them, but I have to stress that it's going to be a long time before that really even gets started. I'm the only one who can do the job of altering my source PDFs, and I have a ton of other stuff going on before I can think about doing that. I don't have any problem with releasing whatever GSDs Jason (Noremorse) is comfortable with releasing -- but they'll come with the disclaimer that it's up to you to figure out how to make them work with my PDFs. I'm sure we can provide registration mark graphics that you can work with, which should help. But I think it's going to take some expertise, patience and practice on your part. |
|
|
|
Post by oldschooldm on Aug 24, 2011 11:31:41 GMT -9
thats ok, it is probably less work than making them myself! |
|
|
|
Post by emergencyoverride on Aug 24, 2011 12:13:13 GMT -9
For end users to add reg marks is relatively easy. I do it all the time with non supported terrain. Just use whatever graphic program you like, Gimp etc. and convert the page to a bmp file. After that open it in Silhouette Studio and click the show reg marks button and then save as a studio file. (You can then print it out from there and its easier to make any adjustments) Just make sure you don't manipulate the pieces on the page any, or it won't match the cut file and you'll have to create your own cutfile which is also pretty simple to learn.
I don't want to take away from what you are doing because its super cool and many people don't have cutters or don't want to take the time to hand cut pages or use alot of ink printing, so if you want we can get a mod to split the rest of this off into another subject area, but I wanted to discuss users making their own cutfiles.
I thought making cutfiles was harder than it actually is. I have gone to 20mm for most of my games and that leads to me rescaling the terrain files. I remove any extra print or logos and then rearrange the page and make the pieces fit better. This causes me to have to make new cut files.
To use your Tall Hostel as an example, I recently converted it to 20mm. I had previously rearranged it to make cutfiles at 28mm. At 28mm, the main page is actually outside the reg lines so I split it in half, copied and pasted the glue tabs on the edge that was left, rotated it 90 degrees, added reg marks and then made another page with the half I had cut from the first page, adding reg marks. On the roof page I just rearranged the pieces. I then made the cutfiles for all three pages using line, polyline, and either Red whole or Blue dashed lines for the cut and score lines and voila! Its done. Doing that, literally took me 20mins. Now I can print and cut as many as I want in no time. For the 20mm version I just had to resize the 28mm pages in Gimp and recreate the cutfiles. I think you can actually rescale the cutfiles, but I had some small changes I wanted to make.
If anyone owns a cutter and you don't make your own cutfiles on it, you are missing out on half of its benefit. Play with it a little and you'll see that the learning curve is not steep at all and its actually fun.
But like I said earlier, many people don't have cutters and still love to build the terrain, so, please support Dagobah Dave and Noremorse in their venture! I enjoy using the tech, but will probably still be picking up the sets for my brother who is not the least bit technologically minded, but loves your terrain. (He is always trying to borrow mine for the games at his house) ;D
Edited for spelling and missing words...
|
|
|
|
Post by pblade on Aug 25, 2011 0:19:05 GMT -9
I'll agree with EmergencyOverride about making cut files. They really aren't as difficult to make as they may seem. (I would budget a bit more that 20 minutes per page though...at least at first!)
Honestly, the biggest stumbling block I've run into (and the reason I don't already have most of Dave's stuff cutter-ready) is the inability to move all the layers at once. And I'm pretty sure that is a major source of the time it will take Dave to make his stuff cutter-friendly.
I'll be patient for the cut files. Not having them doesn't keep me from building things, after all. And I am officially on the list to get one of the pre-cut buildings once you get those off the ground.
Good luck, guys!
- Pb
|
|
|
|
Post by Dave on Aug 25, 2011 0:46:42 GMT -9
Honestly, the biggest stumbling block I've run into (and the reason I don't already have most of Dave's stuff cutter-ready) is the inability to move all the layers at once. And I'm pretty sure that is a major source of the time it will take Dave to make his stuff cutter-friendly. Yep, the layers are a big part of it. Also, some of my earlier models won't fit in the margins of desktop cutters, so I'll need to rearrange those sheets in order to make them cutter-friendly. It's not hard to do, but multiplied times 85 models, it becomes a pretty big job. I had to upgrade the RAM on my computer in anticipation of some of the projects I'll be working on. This is one of them. |
|
Here's hoping I make enough by October to justify the expense of another machine lol.
