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Post by cowboyleland on Mar 3, 2014 13:05:23 GMT -9
I'm not a Palladium Fantasy player, so take this with a grain of salt: I think 24 player figures are enough for one set, but I would recommend that some of them be female. Splitting the Characters and Monsters probably makes sense too.
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Post by madmanmike on Mar 3, 2014 13:39:59 GMT -9
Thanks for the input; Originally I had a few females in the base pack, but as there is one to represent each class, that would have meant some classes would only have been represented by a female mini. As most players are male, I felt that wouldn't do.
Yes, I think I'll split them into two sets, one with 24 and the other with 28. The third set then will have some females in it (5 already), and I do have enough to make that one ready right off too.
So basically a few more monsters, an intro page with directions for assembly and they're ready to go. While I do present them in an A-Frame format, all of them have matching black outlines on front and back so they can easily be trimmed to regular paper minis.
Unfortunately I have to finish my other art commitment and that will probably take all the rest of my free time this week. It needs to be done now and I'm going on a trip Thursday, so I've got to buckle down.
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Post by madmanmike on Mar 4, 2014 6:15:15 GMT -9
Oh, and a few pages of these will be included as well; my art process has greatly reduced the file-size (two full pages of minis, 48 in all, make a .pdf at just 1.8MB), so I figured I'd add a few pages with textured bases to up the ante.
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Post by madmanmike on Mar 5, 2014 14:41:43 GMT -9
Right, I'm needing some feedback.. After a comment from a friend I find myself rethinking the thick black outline. I liked the original look I was using without, but I understand the value of the ability to trim the edges to make that cool mini silhouette, so I'm thinking something like this as a compromise? Opinions? The first mini you'll recognize as the Elf Gladiator from the freebie packet, but the second is one of the Ogre's from the first monsters set.
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Post by cowboyleland on Mar 5, 2014 19:13:41 GMT -9
Interestingly, pasiphilo just posted today that he is giving up the black border option on his (pre-printed and pre-cut)mini's because he doesn't get enough demand to warrant them. I'm not sure I'm understanding your example. Do people get to choose between versions or do they have to print out a page of "incompatible" figures? Personally, I think people can get used to either, it really only becomes a "problem" if you are trying to mix sets. I think Jim Hartman chose the black borders because he believed it (along with an extra 2mm at the eyeline) gave 2d figures the same "presence" as 3d figs on the table. For the winter landscape of his snowball game Dave Okum chose a white border as being less conspicuous. In the closed system of the game he didn't need to compete or compare to 3d figs
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Post by madmanmike on Mar 5, 2014 19:52:31 GMT -9
The intent was to show the two styles; minis would be presented in one format or the other, not both. Likewise, I would never put multiples of the same figure on a single page. So I'm curious what people think of the style with the thin outline instead of the thick one. If you're inclined to do a simple A-Frame, would the thin outline be distracting?
Personally I feel that the images pop much better without the thick black outline, and the thin will still allow those who want to cut the outline to do so.
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Post by zygrott24 on Mar 6, 2014 5:05:23 GMT -9
I personally like flats better than A frames but the thin line option is nice in that it lets people who are fans of either style to get what they want. Have you thought about doing a layered pdf that could let users turn the outlines/black silhouettes on and off?
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Post by madmanmike on Mar 6, 2014 5:38:21 GMT -9
I personally like flats better than A frames but the thin line option is nice in that it lets people who are fans of either style to get what they want. Have you thought about doing a layered pdf that could let users turn the outlines/black silhouettes on and off? Well.. how long has that been staring me in the eyes... <wheels turning>.... <spring being sprung>... I've only had Acrobat for a few months and only started using it in the past 30 days, so.. I'll get on that.. Thanks.
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Post by WackyAnne on Mar 6, 2014 16:38:53 GMT -9
Interestingly, pasiphilo just posted today that he is giving up the black border option on his (pre-printed and pre-cut)mini's because he doesn't get enough demand to warrant them. I'm not sure I'm understanding your example. Do people get to choose between versions or do they have to print out a page of "incompatible" figures? Personally, I think people can get used to either, it really only becomes a "problem" if you are trying to mix sets. I think Jim Hartman chose the black borders because he believed it (along with an extra 2mm at the eyeline) gave 2d figures the same "presence" as 3d figs on the table. For the winter landscape of his snowball game Dave Okum chose a white border as being less conspicuous. In the closed system of the game he didn't need to compete or compare to 3d figs I think pasiphilo's minis do so well with the white border because they are real-life Card Hunter minis And in snowball wars, both black-bordered and border-less versions are available, on separate sheets. I prefer black borders, as I agree it allows a figure to blend better into the background. But having options is always best
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Post by Parduz on Mar 7, 2014 1:47:35 GMT -9
Ok, some general feedback... - i like more the black border... but i agree that the white one could have some use. Dunno how much efforts are required to maintain both as an option, but i'd like to have the white as an option. .. and parduzzing: - the backside of your orc is "not simmetrical" to the front.. if a very skilled modeller or a cutting robot owner decide to cut out the "holes" between his right arm and the body, i'll cut the back side of the arm. - one of the reasons that makes hard to me to swallow 3D generated figures (from Poser, i'd guess?) are the mistakes it makes with lights, and how hard is for the author to make things look real. Close your left hand in a fist (and close it hard: you're angry and vicious and menacing) and compare with the left hand of the orcs. Your fingers are tied toghether, you can't see the "side" of them, and there's no light between them. Now grab something that could be a weapon handle...or just grab a decent size hammer, and compare your hand with the orc right hand: to hold the weight your hand have to exercize some force, to the point that the skin between your thumb and the first finger is "squashed", deformed around the hande by the pressure you're applying by the other fingers.... the orc is handling that sword loosly, like as if it was a drum stick. Also, there shouldn't be so much light on the handle and on the hand palm (look at the back side) unless a light is pointing there. HTH
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Post by madmanmike on Mar 7, 2014 4:44:35 GMT -9
Thanks for the feedback everyone; after my first attempt at using layers to make the outline an option, I'm thinking it will be easier (and smaller file size) to just include the outlined minis as a separate page. I'm on a family vacation trip and did one page of minis sans outlines while my wife drove us to our first stay, in about two hours, so making the other version won't take long for each mini. - the backside of your orc is "not simmetrical" to the front.. if a very skilled modeller or a cutting robot owner decide to cut out the "holes" between his right arm and the body, i'll cut the back side of the arm. - one of the reasons that makes hard to me to swallow 3D generated figures (from Poser, i'd guess?) are the mistakes it makes with lights, and how hard is for the author to make things look real. Close your left hand in a fist (and close it hard: you're angry and vicious and menacing) and compare with the left hand of the orcs. Your fingers are tied toghether, you can't see the "side" of them, and there's no light between them. Now grab something that could be a weapon handle...or just grab a decent size hammer, and compare your hand with the orc right hand: to hold the weight your hand have to exercize some force, to the point that the skin between your thumb and the first finger is "squashed", deformed around the hande by the pressure you're applying by the other fingers.... the orc is handling that sword loosly, like as if it was a drum stick. Also, there shouldn't be so much light on the handle and on the hand palm (look at the back side) unless a light is pointing there. HTH Oy, too early in the morning.. you threw me there with your parduzing (had to look it up) and orc.. It's an Ogre, I'm not familiar with a setting that has orcs that are 9+ feet tall (These two minis are proportional to each other, and elves are 6+ feet tall in Palladium Fantasy. Yes, there is a lack of symmetry in my images; that's because of depth perception. In very few instances I use the 'back camera' (like with the elf gladiator) because the figure is so spread out from font to back that it's necessary to get the outline close, but usually I use a camea placed in the exact opposite position on the Z-plane; the Ogre's left side is closer to the back camera than the right, while the left fist is closer to the front camera than the back, this causes clear depth issues; but the outline is a melding of an outline of each image, so if you use the black outline to cut, it will not cut the image on either side. That is why I started doing the black outline in the first place; my lack of experience with paper figs left me not knowing that people did indeed cut them out. Here is the Ogre without photoshop post-work; when I render, unlike most other Poser minis (I actually use DazStudio, but it's essentially the same except for interface and render time [much faster]), I actually have a set of seven lights I use on the figure. While it isn't as obvious on the finished images, the backside is largely just ambient lit. My post-work process considerably brightens the back in order to show the detail. As to the hand, I know what you mean about Poser minis.. Most make very little to no effort to actually pose their figures, often just using some of the free pose sets out there that literally only require double clicking an icon. I manually pose each of my figures; in the case of this ogre, I felt that a loose grip on the sword would show both strength (the sword is after all over six feet of hardened steel) and confidence.. I think if it was charging at me with that sword I would be scared and try to react, but if it was standing their lightly holding a sword (that easlily weighed more than me) with a taunting sneer on it's face I'd have time to contemplate just exactly how screwed I was.
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Post by madmanmike on Mar 7, 2014 4:56:18 GMT -9
I should say, in Poser and DazStudio, if one uses the front and back view cameras, it does flatten the depth of field; if you are wondering if that was done, there's an easy way to tell: the feet will appear flat at the bottom of the mini. All of my figures are posed using those cameras to ensure that the feet are not passing through the ground plane (so I can do a sample image with an actual shadow as shown in the pre-post Ogre above). As I mentioned above, the back side of the elf gladiator is rendered with the back camera (hence the flat feet), but the other three images there were rendered for depth with regular cameras.
As a 3D artist, I always find myself biting my tongue when I see other minis done with Poser because I can tell they used the freebie poses that never pay attention to the shape and position of the feet. Terrible lazy art. <cringe>
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Post by madmanmike on Mar 7, 2014 19:55:08 GMT -9
I put this together today from some of the mini images I've done; a Palladium Fantasy 2E racial height comparison chart. From left to right: Goblin (3-4ft), Hobgoblin (4-5ft), Human (5-6ft6in), Ogre (7-12ft), Troll (9-14ft), Wolfen (7-10ft), Elf (6-6ft10in), Orc (5-6ft8in), and Dwarf (3-4ft). Palladium also has Kobolds (unlike many other settings, these are basically ugly dwarfs related to goblins, 3-4ft), Gnomes (the smallest non-faerie player race at 2-2.5ft tall), Troglodytes (4-5ft tall), Changelings (7ft, but can mimic 3-10ft heights), and two subraces of the Wolfen, Coyles (6-8ft tall) and the Kankoran (fox-like, 4-5ft.)
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Post by madmanmike on Mar 10, 2014 17:00:08 GMT -9
I guess we're past the put up or shut up stage..
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Post by madmanmike on Mar 17, 2014 7:46:36 GMT -9
That's fine then. Stat cards will be provided in the free sample set of gladiators, along with an abridged set of combat rules (to show what the Palladium Fantasy RPG® rules are like), and a simple arena section.
Since nobody had any feedback on the sample art I showed last week, here's another question. I have not actually purchased any paper miniatures before, so I'm curious what value consumers find in a splash page. Right now all I have for the splash/cover page is a title for the package, the promo image showing all the front sides in a crowd, and information about Palladium with links to their web page and online stores.
Is that common? Do most packages you buy have something more?
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Post by gilius on Mar 17, 2014 17:09:29 GMT -9
When I buy paper minis sets I expect the minis (of course) and possibly bases, but I use them mostly for various wargaming rules. Maybe customers that will use them for RPGs might like some general character ideas or profiles but that is just a guess.
What I do find inspiring are cool shots of the built minis over some terrain. Seeing how they might look on the table is a motivator for purchase for me.
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Post by madmanmike on Mar 17, 2014 18:16:29 GMT -9
When I buy paper minis sets I expect the minis (of course) and possibly bases, but I use them mostly for various wargaming rules. Maybe customers that will use them for RPGs might like some general character ideas or profiles but that is just a guess. What I do find inspiring are cool shots of the built minis over some terrain. Seeing how they might look on the table is a motivator for purchase for me. Thanks for the feedback; Yes, I'll have to print and cut some for a few promo images..
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Post by madmanmike on Apr 10, 2014 15:02:32 GMT -9
Good news. It's in the personal budget to get the minis printed tomorrow so I can put them together and takes some promo images for the packages. Hopefully this weekend I can get that done and Palladium can get them up next week. On a related note, I've started putting together a process to make NPC portrait cards as was requested several pages ago. Here's an example of my first draft, I'd appreciate some feedback on the style.
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Post by madmanmike on Apr 11, 2014 13:55:08 GMT -9
Bueller?... Bueller?... Well, I finally got them printed and just need to find the time (and a good knife) to cut them this weekend. I snapped a few pics with my phone at work; A blurry image of one of the goblins: Priest of Darkness, Warrior Monk, Druid and Mercenary Warrior: Page one of package 2, the monster races; goblins, hobgoblins, orcs and ogres here:
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Post by madmanmike on Apr 12, 2014 9:41:40 GMT -9
Misfortune.. I've lost my x-acto set somewhere in the past, and I don't have a decent cutting board, so I can't really do the final promo images to finish the packages until later; the trials of living from check to check. Impatient this close to the finish line, I did cut a few out and take a higher resolution image for opinions (judging from the latest traffic, I don't really expect any).
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Post by wyvern on Apr 12, 2014 10:47:51 GMT -9
Mike: Nice-looking minis overall. Personally, I'm happy to see more Goblins and Orcs that a) aren't bright green, and b) are "naturally" proportioned. The more "cartoony" styles are fine in some contexts, but these guys start to make you feel they have individual characters, and aren't simply part of some cabbage-tinted mass of perpetual "baddies". And suddenly, they have civilizations worth exploring, and aren't simply monsters to kill for the treasure and XP.
The latest photo though does highlight one common problem with many A-frame minis, that the image frame expands for larger figures, but fails to contract for smaller ones. Larger frames can work well for flying or swimming minis, but not for smaller standing ones.
For your NPC portrait card a couple of posts earlier, I'm not keen on the figure apparently "floating" above the scroll background. It should look more "painted on" I think. The skin texture looks too smooth for that as well. Also the sharp black edge to the scroll's back pane contrasts oddly with the soft-focus of the scroll body there. Not sure if the curling scroll edges will work if game stats are to be added to the final piece, though they do add something to the whole. Maybe needing a little more, but possibly softer, shadow effects to make the right hand curl stand out a little more?
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Post by madmanmike on Apr 12, 2014 11:28:32 GMT -9
Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, that does bother me a bit too about the smaller minis.. there is a bit of a fix though; my Troll minis use a thin flap of paper at the top that has to be folded in on itself to put them together (front and back are actually side by side on the page). For the goblins one could invert the top fold and glue it together, lowering them top, and then just trim the sides closer.
For the character card, I haven't seen what other character cards look like so I don't know what should be added to them. I've tried to process the image to make it look like its on the scroll, but now that you mention the skin texture I have an idea of how I can make that work..
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Post by cowboyleland on Apr 12, 2014 12:08:10 GMT -9
I thought I replied to the character card . . . hmm. Anyway I like the `sketchy`quality of it. I`m wondering what it is for. Is it meant to give players an image of who they are talking to? If so you might not want to put the character class as a title. On the other hand, if it is meant as a fancy stat card you might want the title at the top so they are easier to sort through. Not having played your target game, I think it would be useful to have a card with image on the front and stats on the back so the players see who they are talking to and the the gm is ready with numbers if dice need to be rolled.
Again, that is just me and my imagination at work.
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Post by madmanmike on Apr 12, 2014 15:09:50 GMT -9
I thought I replied to the character card . . . hmm. Anyway I like the `sketchy`quality of it. I`m wondering what it is for. Is it meant to give players an image of who they are talking to? If so you might not want to put the character class as a title. On the other hand, if it is meant as a fancy stat card you might want the title at the top so they are easier to sort through. Not having played your target game, I think it would be useful to have a card with image on the front and stats on the back so the players see who they are talking to and the the gm is ready with numbers if dice need to be rolled. Again, that is just me and my imagination at work. The idea was to provide some more detailed images of NPCs, sort of like these.. I would provide them with and without the labels, and they'd be done as 9 to a page instead of coming as a full deck of cards.
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Post by madmanmike on Apr 18, 2014 7:49:36 GMT -9
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Post by madmanmike on Apr 18, 2014 7:59:53 GMT -9
And I just realized that I didn't get a good image of the goblin mini.. This one is a bit blurry but shows how it looks with the others.
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Post by dungeonmistress on Apr 18, 2014 14:20:32 GMT -9
Hi 3M! (MadManMike)
Your figures have a really nice natural look to them, I like them a lot. I also like that you do a full back picture and not just the silhouette. But I must say, IMHO, that I like them best as cut out mini's rather than the triangle folds.
Your character card shows a good start, but your druid needs to be a little more "druidish". Fancy up the staff, make it a branch, add leaves and other bits hanging by leather thongs and such. do something similar with the cloak. And the hair - maybe longer and a bit more 'wild'? I like the parchment, looks good.
As for stats, can you make the cards folded? Picture on the front and inside blank spaces for the player to fill in his/her own stats? on the back, maybe a little room for a short background story?
Just random ramblings.
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Post by madmanmike on Apr 18, 2014 14:57:19 GMT -9
Thanks for the feedback. Hi 3M! ( Mad Man Mike) Your figures have a really nice natural look to them, I like them a lot. I also like that you do a full back picture and not just the silhouette. But I must say, IMHO, that I like them best as cut out mini's rather than the triangle folds. Yeah, I'm inclined to agree, despite the extra work in putting them together. I think for my own use I'm going to use the A-frames as minifigs by gluing them and using the bases I've made; faster than cutting out the others but more stable and less distracting in that triangle. Likewise that way I can cut down the height of the smaller figs that way. Ironically Kevin Siembieda said much the same thing. I've made some changes, most notably adding the familiar they get in Palladium Fantasy, but there's still more to do for it to be finished.. I doubt there will be a printed package, just .pdfs.. I'm thinking pages with nine images to a page, and a blank back frame set for GM's to fill out as they please.
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Post by dungeonmistress on Apr 21, 2014 8:10:29 GMT -9
Perfect! That will make them usable with nearly any system! Love it! I am waiting with bated breathe!
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Post by madmanmike on Apr 21, 2014 8:19:30 GMT -9
I thought I'd get my sample mini pack finished over the weekend, but our "easter trip" turned into my "Surprise" 40th birthday party. Okay, I suspected it would go that way, but didn't expect it to take all my time and energy. So, hoping the woman who was a no-show this morning actually takes the bus route I've been covering, thus allowing me to get more than five hours sleep at night and work on these things during the day. Still pulling for the end of this week to launch the minis in the store.
Then I finish my haunted clinic floor plan commission, and then hit the process for these NPC cards.
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