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Post by wisdomknight on Jul 27, 2014 8:23:17 GMT -9
After much time spent on making terraclip templates and cutting out the little notches for each tile on matte board then onlt to see the ugly black clips scattered across my nice build I am contemplating a more aesthetic but sensible way for a tile system.
I am going to use a huge chip board for uniform tiles (ex. dungeons).
But what about 2nd floors? Or when the tiles need to be interchanged?
I know Fat Dragon Tom uses the foam board/tooth pick way. This by far seems the easiest way to go.
But how does that hold up over time? Should chip/matte board be placed over top the foamcore? Im thinking it will make or more sturdy and if the foam doent hold up you can peel the matte board off of the foam.
Now Ive already tried the TerrainLinx system and its not for me. Way too time consuming even more so than making terraclips tiles (but it does look nice).
What do you guys use and what wouldn't you have done and even do now for interchangeable tiles?
Id love for oldschooldm and mproteau to chime if you guys have a chance
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Jul 27, 2014 9:09:12 GMT -9
Ok. I just typed about 15 pages justifying why I still prefer TLX over FDG tiles, but I really don't want to spend a lot of time bashing one format or another. Clearly they all work for certain people. For me, I 100% prefer TLX as a modular building system. I bought in at the highest level of the FDG kickstarter, so I've got (almost) all FDG sets. I've spent time building them as-is, and I have a number of very small gripes, mostly because I'm a pain in the ass about things, but overall they're very good sets. The major gripes I have come down to personal preference for build style, and I will be investing the time to convert what I can to TLX. It is my opinion that... ... TLX takes up less space. ... TLX builds are very sturdy. ... TLX walls are on the edge of the tiles. ... (based on my experience) TLX is at worst not any slower to build. ... TLX has a better method for making multi-level builds. ... TLX has a better method for making builds in pieces that can be easily added or removed. The only thing I don't like about TLX is the roofing system. I have only looked at the FDG roofing system (since I don't like how they've handled multi-level buildings in the first place) and it didn't look like it was much of an improvement over TLX. I started trying out some ideas (with success) that eliminate the need to have roof textures on the trusses. Making special trusses for each roof texture really destroys the modularity of the system. I don't think toothpicks would be as strong as the TLX system for holding tiles together, and I don't think cutting the notches into the tiles really slows me down that much. I've bulk created blank tiles, so I'm ready to wrap them with textures. I wouldn't trust toothpicks for a multi-level build. Check out my Thoumont's buildIf you have specific questions about the build systems, I can be very specific about my experiences.
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Post by wisdomknight on Jul 27, 2014 10:40:29 GMT -9
Thanks man, for that input.
-What paper do you use for TLX? I tried it with glossy photo and it was too thick and rubbery.
-Would you say the anchors for the walls hold up over time/multiple uses? The anchors don't look nearly as bad as terraclips but still its a bit irritating.
-What glue do you use for the TXL tiles themselves? The glue I used warped the foamcore. I like using rubber cement maybe that should have been my choice.
-Your build is beautiful! Ive seen build though that looked like they were going to collapse! That didn't make me feel too easy about getting into TXL.
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Jul 27, 2014 11:16:35 GMT -9
-What paper do you use for TLX? I tried it with glossy photo and it was too thick and rubbery. I use Staples Matte Photo Paper. It's 230gsm, according to their website. I bought a ton of the stuff on rebate last year at between $0 and $1 per 50 sheets. I haven't seen it on sale like that in a while, but if I do, I'll share some links with the community. -Would you say the anchors for the walls hold up over time/multiple uses? The anchors don't look nearly as bad as terraclips but still its a bit irritating. Yes, they hold up fine. Sometimes they pop off. One little drop of white glue and they're back in place. Don't score them to the point that they're super-floppy. The only reason I have to know that fact is because I have kids, and they've been using my TLX stuff as general playsets since I started making them. They abuse the stuff. -What glue do you use for the TXL tiles themselves? The glue I used warped the foamcore. I like using rubber cement maybe that should have been my choice. To mount the tiles to the foamcore, I use white school glue. I'm about to run to Staples to pick some up. 39ยข a bottle. For walls, I use Super77 spray glue. Stuff is brilliant for large flat pieces like walls. I use it for standees too, but I find sometimes it doesn't bond well enough to hold really narrow details together. For everything else, it's white glue. You don't need any glue on the tile, though I give it a tiny spritz of spray mount. A small even layer of white glue just on the flaps under the tile. I put a little strip of glue, then spread it with my fingertip to cover the right areas. I do one flap at a time, making sure the corners are lined up square. -Your build is beautiful! Ive seen build though that looked like they were going to collapse! That didn't make me feel too easy about getting into TXL. The first set I built (the first three, actually) were done on a printer that didn't print square. I also used super-cheap cardstock that bled a lot when printing. I think everything in that Thoumont's build was done with cheap cardstock, but at least the Thoumont's building was done on a printer that could print square. That building - I moved it around my house up and downstairs so many times to snap photos (my wife didn't want it left down on the dining room table...) and it stayed together flawlessly. It was built based on this promo pic: So, you can see how all of the pieces are removable so you can get at different levels. I especially liked the balcony on that set. This goes for everything, not just TLX - if you take your time lining up your cuts, your pieces will look good. I mean, with a FDG wall, if you don't glue it right, it won't sit flush with the other wall pieces, and it'll look like poo. Same is true for TLX - if you don't make your tiles right, they won't sit snugly, and you'll see some gaps. It's not like that ruins the piece. But, you'll notice it. Another thing that is true no matter what you do - edge all your pieces. For me it is the most time consuming part of the process, but it improves the look of a build so much. I was able to go back and edge some sets I didn't edge when I started, but it's even slower and messier than usual. When your face is right up on it, you notice the little things you could have done better. Some of my early tiles - I didn't know better, and I ended up using spray glue to mount the tile to the foamcore. That worked super fast, but it made the tile tabs stick inside the tiles, and it made the flaps that cover the tab holes stick inside the tile. They're supposed to swing freely, making it easy to cover up the holes. I'm much better at that now.
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Jul 27, 2014 11:28:54 GMT -9
Oh - I should point out ONE MAJOR drawback to TLX. WWG has pretty much dried up. Good luck getting any sort of response from anyone about anything that has any control over the company over there. Poopies. It's the reason I was willing to throw plenty of money behind FDG even if I don't like their modular system as much - they're alive and kicking, and I wanted to support that. So, keep that in mind - I'm willing to stick with TLX, but it means having to roll my own if I want more material that is compatible.
I forgot all about that caveat since I was so focused on answering the "which do you prefer" question...
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Post by wisdomknight on Jul 27, 2014 12:13:39 GMT -9
Thanks so much again mproteau for that info. It really truly helps a lot.
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Post by oldschooldm on Jul 27, 2014 17:23:33 GMT -9
I don't use linked tiles of any type, nor do a use posts that link walls to tiles. ALL of that is way too much work/time for me. I put paper-maps (not foam tiles) under large clear plastic sheets, bobby pin walls together, use some method (usually re-positional glue dots) to hold the structure (or fold-flat building) to the sheet. I also use Terraclips (often omitting the floor tiles), especially if I want to build something with multiple stories. If you haven't seen my work - set aside a half-hour or more and start here: the-forsite-irregulars.obsidianportal.com/I'm even starting to build FDG walls FOLD-FLAT! :-) I am pressed for time AND space.
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Post by wisdomknight on Jul 28, 2014 5:31:26 GMT -9
Your large clear plastic sheet idea is ingenious oldschooldm! Im very curious to see your FOLD-FLAT FDG walls. Thank you
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Post by oldschooldm on Jul 28, 2014 5:46:58 GMT -9
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Post by wisdomknight on Jul 28, 2014 6:07:44 GMT -9
Thanks for the links and pics.
BTW I love your wenbsite!
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Post by wisdomknight on Jul 28, 2014 20:03:38 GMT -9
Well Im thinking of going with TLX (without anchors) and just use FDG chunky walls. Lay everything on top of one another.
mproteau do you use 3/16 foamcore with TXL tiles? Ive tried before and doesn't seem to quite fit right to me.
Im wondering if I should edit the cut files 1/16", ever try that?
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Jul 29, 2014 2:20:35 GMT -9
Yes, I use 3/16" foamcore, and no, don't try trimming it down. That subject has been beaten to death on the WWG forums. Maybe it was a bad decision by WWG to make the templates accommodate 1/4" foamcore, but it is what it is. I don't know anyone who'se built a lot of stuff that has had any issues with the 3/16" foamcore size. The key to wrapping textures around your tile is to get good at ensuring that the edges are perpendicular to the top face. When you glue the flaps down to the tile, you don't need to MUSH it flat to the point of making the sides buckle outward.
It's certainly possible to use TLX-style tiles with FDG holes in them, so you can enjoy both. It's also possible to speed-mount TLX textures to larger tiles, but still place the tab holes in the right place to allow smaller tiles to connect to them. Lastly, you can use FDG holes in tiles on upper floors - you might want to use one to anchor walls along the outside of the tile? Just use a blank piece of paper/cardstock underneath to help support the posts.
Just some ideas, and good luck!
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Post by wisdomknight on Jul 29, 2014 4:53:49 GMT -9
Yes, I use 3/16" foamcore, and no, don't try trimming it down. That subject has been beaten to death on the WWG forums. Maybe it was a bad decision by WWG to make the templates accommodate 1/4" foamcore, but it is what it is. I don't know anyone who'se built a lot of stuff that has had any issues with the 3/16" foamcore size. The key to wrapping textures around your tile is to get good at ensuring that the edges are perpendicular to the top face. When you glue the flaps down to the tile, you don't need to MUSH it flat to the point of making the sides buckle outward. It's certainly possible to use TLX-style tiles with FDG holes in them, so you can enjoy both. It's also possible to speed-mount TLX textures to larger tiles, but still place the tab holes in the right place to allow smaller tiles to connect to them. Lastly, you can use FDG holes in tiles on upper floors - you might want to use one to anchor walls along the outside of the tile? Just use a blank piece of paper/cardstock underneath to help support the posts. Just some ideas, and good luck! Thanks man you've been an incredible help. Great tips on assembling the TXL.
Im finally looking forward to building some TXL tiles, Ive been debating doing so for for a year now
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Post by Zephalo on Jul 29, 2014 10:06:09 GMT -9
The only thing I don't like about TLX is the roofing system. ... I started trying out some ideas (with success) that eliminate the need to have roof textures on the trusses. Making special trusses for each roof texture really destroys the modularity of the system. Would you mind to show off your success? Maybe in another Thread or over at WWG if youe prefer that? Thanks, Zephalo
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Jul 29, 2014 10:11:02 GMT -9
Here's the blog posting I did almost a year ago now (!) on the subject: paperdungeon.blogspot.com/2013/08/roof-redesign-making-good-on-old-threat.htmlI never got to making actual templates so I could try this out in bulk, and I needed to make sure the idea would work well (not sure why it wouldn't) with the different truss types. It's way less fun than making cutfiles for okumarts minis and stuff, so I've been slacking off on this. But, maybe by this weekend I'll be emotionally ready to try again.
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Post by Zephalo on Jul 29, 2014 10:42:14 GMT -9
Here's the blog posting I did almost a year ago now (!) on the subject: paperdungeon.blogspot.com/2013/08/roof-redesign-making-good-on-old-threat.htmlI never got to making actual templates so I could try this out in bulk, and I needed to make sure the idea would work well (not sure why it wouldn't) with the different truss types. It's way less fun than making cutfiles for okumarts minis and stuff, so I've been slacking off on this. But, maybe by this weekend I'll be emotionally ready to try again. Thanks for your answer. To be honest I saw your blog posting a year ago, looked at it before I posted my question, and looked at it again now, but I don't get how it is working. Sorry for my dumbness. My question is more of academic curiosity though, so if you do not find the time, it wouldn't be a tragedy... Thanks, Zephalo
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Jul 29, 2014 10:56:45 GMT -9
So, the problem I have with the TLX roof system is that the roof pieces slot into truss pieces much like the walls slot into posts. Wait, that's not the problem. I love that. But also like the posts which have wall textures on them, the trusses have roof textures on them. THAT is the problem I have. The roof slots onto the inner edge of the truss. See this pic: If you look at the truss right in the middle of the 3rd floor there, you'll see there's a slot on the edge there where the roof piece would slide in. You also see that the truss has shingle textures on it. That pretty much means if you want to invent a brown roof, or a green roof, you need to not only make roof pieces, but trusses for it as well! That's a LOT more work. What I did was move the slots from the inside edge of the truss to the outside edge of the truss (or in the case of this truss in the middle, I put slots in the middle of the truss). This way, the roof texture covers the face of the truss, eliminating the need to put a texture on it. All the truss would need is some pre-printed shading to help cover up any small gaps. I've also started experimenting with leaving the slots where they are on the trusses (which saves me some time) and instead move the tabs that are on the roof pieces themselves. I also debate the necessity of making the trusses have the thick, post-like parts. Instead, I wonder if some simple slots would work just as well. Anything that simplifies would be good. I'd bet if I can combine a couple of these ideas, I'd be able to make trusses as fast as walls, which is to say lightning quick. And if I can do that, maybe... just maybe... there's a way to make generic, untextured posts so I wouldn't have to make new posts for every set... I will share pics when I can.
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Post by Zephalo on Jul 29, 2014 11:36:14 GMT -9
Thanks for the answer again. I did understand the problem, of course. I made the roof kitbashes over at WWG, but also didn't like that solution as it is not flexible enough. My (theoretically) ideas are the following: Make the top/outer layer of the roof as wide as the actual roof with tabs and let the tabs only on the bottom/inner layer of the roof not glueing the tabs to the top layer. The other idea is to adapt the FDG way, using tabs on the roofs and slots on the walls. I think this version would be even more flexible as you can produce roofs with overhang which is not possible with actual TLX method. I hope I made myself clear, but English isn't my native language, so I sometimes have problems with expressing myself understandable... Greetings, Zephalo
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Jul 29, 2014 11:47:47 GMT -9
Dang it. Now I'm all excited to try some things out, but tonight is karate night! I'll try some things out tonight if I can and post some results. I've been building FDG ravenfell buildings - they fold flat and are a *really* nice mechanism if that's what you're shooting for. I was pleasantly surprised with the first two buildings I did. However, holding the roofs in place really does seem to require a paperclip to keep the tabs in place after a couple uses. The WWG swift scenic roof system never sat well with me either, but perhaps by splitting the roof into two pieces, the slotted system it uses might work OK.
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Jul 29, 2014 18:10:51 GMT -9
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Post by WackyAnne on Jul 29, 2014 18:40:20 GMT -9
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Post by squirmydad on Jul 29, 2014 19:34:34 GMT -9
I'm a fan of overhanging roofs and eaves myself, makes the builds look less boxy imho.
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Post by Zephalo on Jul 29, 2014 20:37:36 GMT -9
Looks great! And I understand now, how it's working! Greetings, Zephalo
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Jul 30, 2014 8:20:36 GMT -9
I'm a fan of overhanging roofs and eaves myself, makes the builds look less boxy imho. I'm not sure if I should interpret this as "I like how the bottom of the roof hangs out over the wall" or "I would like it even more if the sides of the roof hung out over the end of the building". The trouble I'm wrestling with for the latter statement is that I have often (more often than not, I think) needed the roof to run right up against a wall, or another roof piece. I can't provide a visual right now, but let me describe three scenarios: 1) An end truss that doesn't butt up against anything else. In this case, I could simply make the roof extend 1/4" (for example) past the tab that slots into the truss, creating the overhang. 2) A middle truss with roof pieces in both directions. Picture two end-trusses back-to-back, so they have flaps coming out in both directions, each with a slot right against the wall part of the truss. The 1/4" overhang of one roof would get in the way of the overhang for the other roof. 3) An end truss that abuts a wall. This happens a lot, for example, when you've got a part of a building that has additional floors. So, that 1/4" overhang has nowhere to go. I am thinking that MAYBE I could make a special, optional overhang piece that would just rest between the roof and the truss. I'd make the overhang piece maybe 3x thick, and the part in between the truss and the roof 1x thick. That way, the overhang and the roof would line up. By making a slot on the overhang piece that lines up with the slot on the truss, the roof would hold them both in place. It's so crazy, it might just work. I'm toying with the idea of having an extra tab at the bottom of the roof piece to slip into an extra slot on the truss, just to make it all hold together a little better. Also considering some generic anti-warp triangles. TLX walls include them, and they add some rigidity to the wall without much cost to build time. I might make a template where you can build a regular truss or wall, then if you feel like it you can roll up some triangular supports and add them if you want. I think other people have done something similar (if not that exact idea).
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Post by wisdomknight on Jul 30, 2014 8:37:07 GMT -9
mproteau BTW do you cut your TXL tiles at 90 or 80 degree angle?
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Jul 30, 2014 8:42:28 GMT -9
When I started making TLX tiles, I was also learning how to cut foamcore... I think I cut some that were between 45 to 60 degrees. lol. Don't do that. If you can cut a perfect 90 degree angle (like, if you have a foamcore cutting tool) then I'd say go for it. If you can't, then I'd say do your best to get close to 90 degrees, but the key is that the bottom should not stick out farther than the top. If it does, then the tiles won't butt up against each other nicely - there'll be a gap at the top, and there's no way to fix that. If there's a gap at the bottom, that's ok - when you wrap the cardstock onto the tile, just try to make THAT perfectly 90 degrees (I use a plastic box as a guide to press against). I also always dry-fit the cardstock and foamcore to ensure that it'll fit nicely in all directions. You can always trim the foamcore before you attach the cardstock. Harder to do that afterwards.
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Post by wisdomknight on Jul 30, 2014 8:58:54 GMT -9
Excellent tips mproteau! Thanks buddy
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Post by wisdomknight on Jul 30, 2014 10:44:47 GMT -9
Oh one more question regarding cutting TXL mproteau. Do you cut the templates exactly on the lines or just outside the lines?
Because the connector tabs are exactly 1 inch and the notches and the template are as well. Wont it be too tight to fit if everything is cut exactly an inch?
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Post by mproteau (Paper Realms) on Jul 30, 2014 10:52:03 GMT -9
Actually, for the slots, I'd cut the sides on the *inside* of the lines... What I mean is this - the cardstock templates have flaps you cut that swing freely. They're there to mask the holes on the edge of the tile, but will fold in when you insert a tab. If the hole is snug, the flap might get caught on the foamcore and won't fold back down once you pop in a tab.
Don't stress out too much about it. You can cut it just inside the lines all around. When you dry-fit the cardstock to the foamcore, one thing you'll check is that you can make your sides nice and square. The other thing to check quickly is to see if those side flaps move freely. It only takes a second to fix em if they don't, and eventually it'll become muscle memory - you'll always double-check em to be safe, but you often won't be wrong in your cuts.
Just as an aside - I had the same questions when learning how to make the FDG ez-lock tiles, and really the exact same rules apply, and after a tile or two, I was cutting them out just fine.
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Post by wisdomknight on Jul 30, 2014 10:55:08 GMT -9
Actually, for the slots, I'd cut the sides on the *inside* of the lines... What I mean is this - the cardstock templates have flaps you cut that swing freely. They're there to mask the holes on the edge of the tile, but will fold in when you insert a tab. If the hole is snug, the flap might get caught on the foamcore and won't fold back down once you pop in a tab. Don't stress out too much about it. You can cut it just inside the lines all around. When you dry-fit the cardstock to the foamcore, one thing you'll check is that you can make your sides nice and square. The other thing to check quickly is to see if those side flaps move freely. It only takes a second to fix em if they don't, and eventually it'll become muscle memory - you'll always double-check em to be safe, but you often won't be wrong in your cuts. Just as an aside - I had the same questions when learning how to make the FDG ez-lock tiles, and really the exact same rules apply, and after a tile or two, I was cutting them out just fine. Awesome info to know man. TY
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