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Post by godofrandomness on Apr 17, 2009 17:47:38 GMT -9
I've been wanting to try my hand at game development for years now, and I think it's time to give it a shot.
I've played dozens of board, war, skirmish, dungeon, ect. games over the years, and theres something always lacking for me. That's customization at the individual model/unit level. I mean sure most games let you make your own rosters, or even let you choose gear, but I want something more than that in a war or skirmish game.
Take classic bttletech for instance. There are rules for building your own mechs from the ground up. However there's 2 flaws:
1. I'm looking for a fantasy theme (I do love sci fi and I REALLY love the battletech universe but I get... needs if I don't slay dragons now and then :-)).
2. The rules are so complex that they have pretty much scared off most of my friends to play it.
IF theres a game out there that matches my description and doesn't have these issues, then I will be hooked for life, but until then I want to make one.
I don't have much down on paper yet but here is my concept: I want a game with a squared map or tiles or even measurement based movement. Character units are built from scratch, probably a leveling system similar to 3.5 DnD but with a whole new system, or maybe a point buy system but that might be harder to balance or keep from getting overcomplicated. I'm thinking making it scenario based with options for dungeon crawl or open skirmish.
I hope this all made sense.
I'm going to start to put my ideas down to paper and will post them. I would love to get feedback when I do post them.
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Post by stevelortz on Apr 17, 2009 19:16:49 GMT -9
My advice is to start really reeeaallly simple while you get your basic concepts down. After you've played it enough to be satisfied it works well at that level, then start ramping up the options.
As far as complexity goes, options are not additive, they multiply. That is, if you have one choice to make between two options, it's pretty simple. If you have two choices to make between two options each, it's not twice as complex, it's four times as complex. If you have three choices, it's eight times as complex, and so on ad nauseum. Keep us posted on the progress of your quest!
Have fun! Steve
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Post by Aestelon on Apr 17, 2009 19:33:55 GMT -9
Hmm. So you want a tabletop fantasy combat game, with fairly simple rules and both character creation and experience systems? Ares (from Majestic 12) should be able to cover most of that for you (the only thing missing is campaign/experience rules), and if not, it may well serve as handy inspiration. It's certainly helped me with some of the mechanics for my own game. It's also pretty cheap - $13.30 now. Here it is. You've actually got me thinking in terms of my own rules. I'm wondering if it might be feasible to include an experience system that rewards you in character generation points (since so far my figure generation system works on a point-by-point basis), so you can directly upgrade your models for the next game? Hmm; ponder, ponder... (Sorry, brainfarting. )
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Post by squirmydad on Apr 17, 2009 20:13:57 GMT -9
You also have to ask yourself what your doing this for. Do you want to design a set of rules. It sounds good when daydreaming about it, but it is really difficult to do for real. If you don't want all the work of design, just do like the others suggest, find a simple rules set you like, and mod it to fit your needs.
On the other hand, if you enjoy the challenge of designing your own game, do it. Just don't expect a lot of help, because if you do, it will NEVER get done. People will watch and comment only as you get the stuff done, don't rely on other people to design your game. Look to other people for moral support and random ideas, then you will have a much better design experience. Also, design the game YOU want. Don't try to design something you think everyone else will like, or it will suck, especially to you. I should know, I keep making these mistakes. JIM
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Post by godofrandomness on Apr 17, 2009 20:38:52 GMT -9
Wow, 2 hours and already so much responses! As far as complexity goes, options are not additive, they multiply. That is, if you have one choice to make between two options, it's pretty simple. If you have two choices to make between two options each, it's not twice as complex, it's four times as complex. If you have three choices, it's eight times as complex, and so on ad nauseum. I'm all for complexity in options. By "simple rules" I mean 2 things: the rules don't read like a legal document (like the comprehensive Magic: The Gathering rulebook) or get overwhelmed with obscure rules that rarely come up to the point the book is as dry as a textbook(like the "skidding because I failed a pilot skill check for running across concrete and made a turn at too fast of a speed" rule in Classic Battletech is 1 good example) You've actually got me thinking in terms of my own rules. I'm wondering if it might be feasible to include an experience system that rewards you in character generation points (since so far my figure generation system works on a point-by-point basis), so you can directly upgrade your models for the next game? Hmm; ponder, ponder... This is kind of roughly what I have in mind for "Monster" type models, and for the "Hero" typesI think I want a level by level class progression system, like 3.5 d20. Ares does sound like a great game from what I have read in the preview. It is something I will look into getting later on when funds are more available. On the other hand, if you enjoy the challenge of designing your own game, do it. Just don't expect a lot of help, because if you do, it will NEVER get done. People will watch and comment only as you get the stuff done, don't rely on other people to design your game. Look to other people for moral support and random ideas, then you will have a much better design experience. Also, design the game YOU want. Don't try to design something you think everyone else will like, or it will suck, especially to you. I should know, I keep making these mistakes. JIM The challenge is exactly what I am looking for. I decided a while ago that my dream job would be to own and run a game store promoting and selling mostly games of my own design. I'm never really expecting this to hapen, granted. However it is nice to have goals to reach for.
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Post by godofrandomness on Apr 17, 2009 21:47:39 GMT -9
(Warning: My posts here might be long)
Sorry for the double post, but this is kinda long.
Ok here's my thoughts so far:
First, the dice: I think I am going to base it around d6s, but if I decide to base it around another die (I'm kinda considering d4s just to be different, but higher sided dice just add a bit too much randomness IMO), my formulas and stuff should be ok to adjust.
Figs are divided to 2 categories, and "armies" would consist of either or both categories. "Heroes" would be created using a small point buy system for 4 stats (more on the stats later) or an assignment of set numbers to stats of choice. After stats would be choosing a class, with rules for racial choices to come later. Class levels consist of 1 or 2 basic abilities for the class and maybe a choice from a skill list for that class (like the skills in warhammer quest or feats in 3.5). On gaining of additional levels, the fig could level in the same class or go into another class.
Monsters would be recruited like standard army creation point buys, but the monsters would have a set stat block, but with skills choosable and extra ones buyable.
Stats would be simple. 4 base stats: physical attack (Str for working name for now), physical defense (Con), magical attack (Int), magical defense (Wis). Minor stats would be HP, MP, and a set number for base Speed. I'm gonna start with hp/mp being con/wis for now just to have a number to start with. Non spellcasters probably will not have MP until they get a spell or ability that uses it. Starting stats would be either assign a 1,2,3, and 4 to the stats, or maybe a 10 point stat with a 1 to 1 ratio and a minimum of 1 point for each stat (though I think I will stick with the first option for now)
Stat increases would come every couple levels, either with a 1 point increase in stat of choice, or something more like: at first stat raise choose a stat and raise it a point every x levels, then at another preset level choose a second stat and increase it every x levels too.
basic to hit formula: str/int + die roll is > or = con/wis +3 (or 2 if I go with d4s) with other bonuses applicable to either side of the equasion. The 3 is a rounded average on a d6 roll so all things equal, hitting happens slightly above 50% which should be a good pace to keep things flowing fairly quickly while enough room to have stats, gear, and skills have a signifigant impact. Damage would be mostly set on weapon/spell with some minor bonues from skills. I think I want armor to reduce damage instead of making it harder to be hit, and basic armor would probably have no effect on spell damage.
Play area would be somewhere around 3ft by 3ft, so any basic card table would work to setup on. Movement should be a default of 6 inches or squares (I'm also not opposed to hexes) for heroe types with bonuses from skills n gear, and double move through "difficult terrain". Movement types would negate various terrain movement penalties. For simplicity sake, daigonal would count as 2 (unless using hexes).
Terrain would either be agreed on beforehand, or be preset on maps. I'm pretty keen on the "both players bring half a map" rules from classic battletech, so I might include that later, and some tournament style placing rules for measurement games.
Well thats it for now. I'm going to go think up how I want to do the army creation exactly and try to design some monsters and classes. I will post that stuff later.
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Post by godofrandomness on Apr 19, 2009 17:04:55 GMT -9
Ok I've got some more ideas jotted down:
Turn Sequence: A turn will consist of 3 phases and each model for the current turn's player will go through 1 phase before any move to the next.
1. Some sort of maintenance or upkeep phase: to resolve any effects that require continuous costs or have an "on each turn" type of trigger
2. Action phase: each model gets 1 move action and 1 "do something" action, which can be a second move action. The "do something" will consist of basic attacks, skills, spells, and what not.
3. "Expiration" phase: not much of a phase per se, it is just when any "until end of turn" effects go away.
Victory points: VPs will be issued after battles in a campaign to be used to level up heroes and buy extra monsters/minions or buy more options for current ones. One VP will spendable just like 1 point during creation.
Factions: I am thinking of eventually having 4 to 8 factions by the time the rules are fully developed, but for now I will be working on just a generic "human" faction. Other factions will incorporate other races or nations, and the classes/units each faction has access to will be different.
Unit types: In addition to heros and monsters, there will be minions. They will be troops that are formation based or special/unique characters that will be faction specific. They will be created more like monsters than heroes (pre designed stat blocks with optional gear and skills that can be purchased on army creation)
Unit cost: For teh time being, troop costs for army creation will be set as follows: Hero types' cost will be total of stats plus level plus cost of gear
Minion/Monster types' cost will be total of stats plus cost of skills/gear
Stat progression: Hero types will be able to level up between battles during a campaign style game. Stats will grow with leveling up, and also when starting with a hero higher than 1st. At creation or when reaching the appropiate level, one stat is chosen to go up 1 point every even level, a different stat is then chosen to go up 1 point every 3 levels, a third stat chosen to go up 1 point every 4 levels, and the last stat will go up every 5 levels. Monsters and minions will not normally have stats increase unless it is already an option that can be purchased at creation.
Classes: Available for hero type models, and as said earlier, they will be come in 2 varieties: the "common" and "advance" classes. Most factions will share about 80 percent of the common classes, but the advance ones will be more themed and will only be accessed by one or 2 factions.
The common classes will grow with a 2 skill tree setup, with each trees unique for each classes. Each class will start with a "universal skill" for the class, but the second level will start opening up development in the trees. I'm thinking somethign like picking one skill per level and each level having one to two options per tree, and certain skills having requirements of other skills first.
The advance classes will be options for heros of a certain level or skill that they can progress in instead of their common class. They will probably only have 1 tree available, but progress in the previous trees will still be allowed.
Current common classes planned: Warrior - sword and shield/ 2 handed weapon skill trees Ranger - dual wield/ranged combat skill trees mage - single target/AOE based skill trees priest - healing/buff and debuff skill trees
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Post by kane on Apr 20, 2009 7:45:17 GMT -9
You may want to check out No Quarter. Its not perfect, but may give you some ideas.
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Post by godofrandomness on Apr 20, 2009 16:00:10 GMT -9
You may want to check out No Quarter. Its not perfect, but may give you some ideas. as in the support magazine for warmachine? EDIT: Ooooohhhhh... www.wargamesunlimited.net/noquarter/index.html. This looks good; I will have to check it out. I think I decided that I am going to use d4s for this. They will help keep the random down quite a bit, which puts more focus on skill and should make playtesting a little easier. It's also not as commonly used, so it will add a little different feel to the game. So that means the basic to hit formula changes to "stat+ bonus + d4> or = 2 + stat + bonus." With the default rules I decided that I am going to go with a offset square, because they get no love from other designers and it will add a bit to the "trying to be unique and stand out" factor. By offset, I mean squares laid out kinda like bricks on a wall so that each square is surrounded by 6 others. Ruleswise, it should be the exact same as using hexes or really close to it, so a hex map could be supported too. However, if it comes to be too much of a pain to use 50mm or larger bases on this type of setup, I may switch to standard square grid. However at least by final product, the rules should have options for both standard squares and ruler based things too. I think I forgot to mention before but minis will be set at a 28/30 mm scale and will incorporate 5 different size bases: 20mm, 25mm, 50mm, 75mm, and 100mm (each mini should takefor the big hungry dragon type of minis I'm hammering out a couple class ideas at the moment, and after I finish, I will post and then figure out whats still required to start basic playtesting rules wise.
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Post by godofrandomness on Apr 23, 2009 0:04:55 GMT -9
Ok I have decided to scrap classes alltogether and am going to go with a full skill tree system. The trees will still come in the common and advanced flavors, but instead of a tree for each class, it will be a tree for each concept. For example there will be trees for tanking, dual wielding, ranged combat, melee combat, and so forth. I'm still hammering out the details and will post later on that.
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Post by kane on Apr 23, 2009 6:49:55 GMT -9
Sounds good. Very RPGish. Will all units have access to the trees or just heroes?
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Post by godofrandomness on Apr 23, 2009 10:31:21 GMT -9
What I am thinking for now is just hero types will get access, but maybe some of the more unique or named monster/minion units will get access to some trees.
Here are some other revisions.
I have also decided to go with 6 skills, and I want to use something besides the standard naming conventions, so suggestions are welcome for the names indeed:
Physical/Magical Offense (PA/MA) - stat used to hit with physical/magical attacks
Physical/Magical Defense (PD/MD) - stat used to defend against physical/magical attacks
Physical/Magical Skill (PS/MS) - This skill represents the unit's aptitude or raw ability towards physical/magical arts. It will be used as a prerequisite for skills, and be a major source for bonuses provided by skills.
Level 1 Starting stats for heroes shall be: 2 stats are designated as Good stats, 2 others as Mid stats, and the last 2 as Bad stats.
Good stats start at 3 and go up 1 point every even level. Mid stats start at 2 and go up every 3 levels. Bad stats start at 1 and go up every 4 levels.
Max HP = PS+PD+level Max MP = MS+MD+level
I'm thinking hero units can recover MP on the battlefield when they are out by taking an action to regain MS in mp, but this might just be a special skill instead.
Skill points will be broken down to 2 categories: Physical and Magical. Starting amount will be PS/MS+level. Each skill will cost 1 or more points, and will be in a structured tree format. I'm still working on the trees, and will post some later.
Unit cost for level 1 heroes will be total of skill points+2xlevel+total of stats. I know The PS/MS stats are effectively added twice, but the skills have far more effect on what a character does than the otehr stats, so they should have a heavier weight.
For a hero to advance a level, they pay the difference in cost between the levels . For example a 2nd level hero has 2 stats go up by one, and gains a minimum of 1 skill point, so would cost a minimum of 5 points.
Basic gear will have a low cost, probably 0 for certain pieces. Better/Magical gear will have higher costs, and be available only to higher level heros.
Thats it for now. I will post more later.
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Post by godofrandomness on May 6, 2009 9:26:53 GMT -9
Ok trying to design and balance custom built units is taking up too much time. I am going to instead start working on themes ofr factions, and prebuilt troops for each faction. Custom heroes will probably be put off until the core game itself is developed, and will be added on as an expansion. I will post more later.
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Post by Aestelon on May 6, 2009 9:41:36 GMT -9
I've gotta say, I'm finding that pricing your models is probably the most difficult thing about writing a game. Getting a decent set of rules is (fairly) easy, but working out a way of costing models, especially when (as I do) you want players to be able to create their own units and price them accordingly.
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Post by godofrandomness on May 6, 2009 9:47:57 GMT -9
I've gotta say, I'm finding that pricing your models is probably the most difficult thing about writing a game. Getting a decent set of rules is (fairly) easy, but working out a way of costing models, especially when (as I do) you want players to be able to create their own units and price them accordingly. I still want fully customisable troops; I just want them to be the stars, and not the full army. I want to be able to add and expand the fluff and it's going to be much harder to do that if there isn't set themes. After development, even most of the generic troops should have some sort of customizable options, but that will be later on.
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Post by Aestelon on May 6, 2009 9:57:23 GMT -9
Ah, I think I see. Are you actually making specific troops which can then be customised? My own game is supposed to be completely transferable between genres and worlds, so while I intend to create some troops to use as examples, I want it to be done in such a way that you can create your own armies, with standard troops, heroes, vehicles and the rest, and have a solid pricing structure to do so. I'm clearly digging my own grave here...
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Post by godofrandomness on May 6, 2009 10:13:50 GMT -9
This is what I am thinking for the generic troops. Let's say we're using the Elven faction. There will be a bse stat line for generic minions, then a modifier from the faction to alter the base stat line into something a little more towards the theme of the faction. Then weapons, gear, and abilities can be picked from lists and would adjust the cost of the unit. This enables adding more unit types to the game just by generating more list options. Heros will have more options with the skill trees but even basic trrops will be custom, and I can keep everything in theme by controlling what goes into those lists.
If someone would want to adapt the units to their own setting, it would just be a matter of adjusting what is available to what lists.
I am currently working on a fantasy theme for now, but I will look into expanding into scifi later on.
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Post by godofrandomness on May 13, 2009 9:42:27 GMT -9
Ok just an update for now.
I think I have heavily revised where I am taking this game a bit.
I currently an putting all my notes to keybard and and am assembling a bsic rules package. I plan on releaseing this in a seties of 3 "books." Book 1 will have all the basic rules to my game, along with templates and hints for converting from the 28mm scale to whichever mini scale you would want to use. It will also have the rules needed for making custom units, and will have the army construction rules.
Book 2 will contain predesigned factions based off a fantasy world of my own design, with Onemonkian figs as a reference for troop type. Currently I am planning for 3 factions: a human nation, a high elf nation, and a skeleton based undead faction, but I plan on adding at least 3 more factions to this book which may or may not be based on Onemonk sets, depending on what's available
Book 3 will contain the rules for the custom heroes amd extra rules for adapting to a roleplay setting. This book will also have a gazeteer style section to go over general fluff of my setting.
Depending on how fleshed out and how much time I can dedicate to this project, I may want to take this commercial. However I will have a better clue on that when I get further down the road with this project.
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Post by gatchaman on Sept 28, 2009 11:47:57 GMT -9
I don't have much to say since all advice before are good imho... Since I designed a few RPG and boardgames... I try to always keep in mind this simple advice..KISS (Keep I Strictly Simple) I have printed it and glued it in front of my desk (yeah I'm sometimes weird but it works for the real job too Anyway creating a game is a great experience and seing friends having fun around a game you design is even more great ! Go on !
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Post by godofrandomness on Oct 7, 2009 10:13:20 GMT -9
Progress has slowed on this down to something worse than a crawl. Ive got a pile of notes to sort through and revise, but I have just had too little time these past couple of months; everything from issues at work to dealing with a relationship break up after almost 9 years (it's not a nasty splitting up but after that long its almost as bad as a divorce). When my life gets settled down again, I will be able to get back on track with this.
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Post by gatchaman on Oct 7, 2009 11:49:55 GMT -9
engaged, married or not it's always a difficult thing to deal with sorry for you, hope it'll be better soon... take care...
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Post by jabbro on Oct 7, 2009 14:07:38 GMT -9
Sound tough, man. I know it will take some time to sort everything out and get your head straight. No worries about the game project. We are just glad you are alright.
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