Toppi Saloon Kitbash

[Vermin King]

Back during the Circus Hoard, I got carried away and did not do my homage to Sergio Toppi that I wanted to do.  Toppi did the Saloon with personages for Corriere dei Piccoli (in 1965, I think) and other Tutto sul West collections.  Pioneers, Sheriffs and Villains, American Indians, Frontier and other little sets, including a rodeo.  Pictured above, as a 3d render of the 'il Saloon' set by Mauther, is a backdrop done by Toppi.  I hope to do a remake of this as a larger saloon with 3d props.  I had a huge collection of Toppi creations on the old computer, and I will have to find decent copies, but that's my plan anyway

I haven't gotten to the files I am looking for, but I think going through the Corrierino e Giornalino blog, I finally got to a good lead, corrierino-giornalino.blogspot.com/search/label/tutto%20sul%20west?max-results=2

EDIT --

Got it, did some cleaning and squaring, and realized I don't have to shrink it much. Tomorrow I will work on getting measurements to match up and come up with a floor tile. The Sceriffi e banditi file has fronts for a saloon, the marshall and a bank. I'm going to adjust the files so the saloon front can go with the interior, hopefully





Way back on the Japan Hoard, I was almost getting 'fair' at doing backs, so I hope to do backs for some of these folk, make some tables, some props and try to keep 'creativity' out of it. I want it to look like Sergio Toppi designed it

[Vermin King]

What I thought would be a quick merging of two or more of the Toppi creations to build a saloon, is turning into more of a project than I originally thought. Lately, I have been doing a bit more of a search for any Toppi buildings (crud, his artistic material goes from Rome to the Future) with a roof. The only one I found (that isn't European) is from the Trapper's Cabin. Somehow I can't picture the Saloon having a stretched-hide roof. I will have to develop my own, while trying to keep the feel of Toppi art

[Vermin King]

I realized something last night. I was looking at the Papermau posts on the Tutto sul West pieces. On the Sceriffi e Banditi 3d renders, the figures are oversized for the storefronts, but on the Saloon renders, they seemed right (ish). So I pulled various figures and compared. I think Mauther actually shrank the figures slightly on the Saloon renders. When using the bartender from that set (the shortest standing figure), he would have to duck to go in the exterior saloon doors. The figures will need to be shrunk considerably to be 28mm to 32mm. The Saloon interior walls will need to be shrunk slightly less, and I think the exterior walls will not have to be shrunk at all. Over lunch I will play with this a bit to get reduction numbers, and then I can get back to work. It's starting to look more like a plan than an idea now

EDIT --
Well, reducing the il Saloon to 80.6% gets the figures in the ball park. Enlarged the saloon parts to 101% of that.



I then raised the roof on the exterior, remembering that the boardwalk out front will be on foamcore.



The reduction of the interior parts leaves the inner doorway too short, but the exterior doorway is 450 pxls, so I think that is what I will shoot for on the inside. Tonight I will work on the inner side of the storefront. I should be able to get more done, but we'll just have to see. I also added another board above the upstairs windows. I think at this point, the front still looks like Toppi designed it, so I'm fairly satisfied. Not overly happy with leaving that barrel on the left and hitching post to the right. I may edit them out and make free-standing pieces to sit there. Also that little bench looks out of place drawn on...

With over a third of the month gone, I have already started thinking Plan B, which would be something similar to the original vignette, only with a full front and back wall and floor. By thinking in those terms, I can plan this out so that if I run out of time, I can release something that may be useful, instead of just throwing up my hands and not being finished.

[Vermin King]

Plan B is looking more like the way I will have to go, but we will see. Tedium. As I said before, I want this to look like something Toppi designed himself, so I am trying to do things as he did. Windows looking out having this brownish grayish white in the panes. So, I am using that texture for the panes on the interior. Luckily, I got my calls done and am in 'Incoming Only' mode. I did get the inside saloon doors done in the brown to match the exterior doors.

I have a newly-realized problem. As I look at his artwork, he seems to do pencil sketches, which are then inked, followed by watercolor. And even when I look at his other work, there are no large patches of the inner wall texture. Sampling individual boards and slapping them against each other will be difficult to keep the watercolor-wash appearance. I see no other alternative than to keep working on other stuff and hope for a lightbulb to come on

[Vermin King]

Used the ceiling 'stucco' for the upstairs walls. I don't like it, but it is a Toppi texture.

[Vermin King]

I don't really like the wallpaper upstairs much better than the stucco. I did separate out the hitching post and 'rebuild' the wall where it was. Need to work out the roof line. The upper portion of the inside front wall will be the part of the false front that is exposed above the roof. Maybe I will have time to work on it this afternoon

[Vermin King]

Having a bit of an issue with the floor. I'm already not sold on the idea of the wallpaper in the upstairs, so I really want to find a way to use Toppi textures for the floor. On the old computer, I had a lot of hand-drawn wooden ship models. Modifying deck planking would have been a good compromise, even if they were originally from a different artist. I attempted to use a somewhat rough floor I found, attempting to make it look hand-drawn, but that was a complete failure. So I revisited a Sergio Toppi search. Panoramas did not help. Neither did the Ecumenical Council in St. Peter's. So I looked at the Western playsets again. The floor of the covered wagon may have enough texture to work with. Wish me luck

EDIT --

Not great, but I think it will do for a ramshackle saloon



Had to straighten some boards to help with alignment, then widened the boards along the edge. Cut out the small end pieces and then pasted together trying to stagger them a bit, and mirrored some and rotated some by 180 degrees. Not very good, but at least they are his textures and should look appropriate as a saloon floor. For the porch floor, I think I will try to use one of the Rodeo fences.

[cowboyleland]

I told myself I should really limit my paper modeling to stuff I can use in my games, but the back for this guy looked so easy I couldn't resist.

[Vermin King]

I think I'm going to use the paneling from downstairs for the upstairs rooms. I also found my old tarpaper roofing texture. It needs to be darkened and weathered, but I think it would be appropriate. I still see the stairway doubling back on itself at the back, with a landing between the stair segments. An exterior stairway that has been enclosed to be an open part of the main saloon level. I think the back wall/stairs will be my next step. Then I can finalize the two floors' floor plans.

[cowboyleland]

This one wasn't as easy, but he was more fun for it. I will hopefully get to his "dance partner" on Sunday.

[Vermin King]

One of the things I was looking for in the Familie Journal creations (besides a quick build model), was to take a look at some western buildings I remember seeing, but haven't found yet. They also have all those theater pieces and doll houses. If the bar is along the left wall when you walk in, and the service entrance and stairs are along the back wall, what would go on the right wall? Also, Toppi does not give us a very good clue of how he envisioned the exterior walls. There are no windows behind the bar, but should there be windows on the right wall? If not, there should be some sort of clutter on the inner walls. There's all that stuff on the bar wall and even a painting above the door, so I thought I could find things from the doll houses that could be clutter for the right wall.

As I look at the front of the saloon, I think that it was originally a very rough structure, barely a step better than a tent or hut. I don't think that the rough wood on either side of the entrance is an extension. I think it is the original building. In the course of its history, a second story was added, with exterior stairs at the back. Eventually, they used the clapboard siding to improve the look of the front and the upper story, which would be visible from down the street. They also enclosed the stairs and made them partially visible from the public area.

At least that is the only scenario that I have come up with to explain why the saloon looks the way it does.

[Vermin King]

Well, not much done this weekend, but over lunch I finished the exterior wall of the back side of the bar wall, and have the overall dimensions of the main back wall. I picture the lower back wall being the original wood. The stairway enclosure and upstairs will be the same siding as the front. Needless to say, the parts will have to be re-arranged to make sense for construction. Eventually, the second story and back wall will be removable to allow access to the saloon.




I have to work out windows and door and stairway on back and windows on the wall opposite the bar.

And the upstairs rooms...

I'm gonna run out of time. Anyone feel like doing some tables and chairs?

EDIT --

Actually, tables and chairs should be easy.

Going with two windows on that one wall - requires less filler stuff



Kinda wanting to see what's there put together now

[Vermin King]

And why is this taking so long? Trying to figure out how I want to put this together. It needs to have the upstairs accessible. It also has to have the saloon accessible. But what is the best way to accomplish that?

If the saloon level has the small ceilings put over the bar and opposite wall, the upstairs floor/ extension roofs would sit on that. The upstairs walls would sit on that, but would require 'cornice work' for the triangular box of the main roof to sit on. But the rear stairs complicates what sounds simple.

I've looked at Tommygun's Hab67 modular set that was never finalized, cardboard-warriors.proboards.com/thread/2699/habitat-67, and have been checking out some of the Familie Journal dollhouses. I've also considered boxes, where the exterior walls/roofs are the upper box 'lid' that slides over the inner box which would be the inner walls and floors.

I'm getting lots of parts, but how to put them together. hmmm

EDIT --

Dollhouses?





Okay, just showing the pages that show how things fit together, but if the first one had exterior walls, it would be pretty cool. I also like the accessibility of the second one, and how the parts fit together on both. Keep in mind that the first is from 1916 and the second from 1923

EDIT #2 --

Or how about the Sergio Toppi Saloon Jewelry Box?

Not really a jewelry box, but think of the front/sides and roof as the cabinet. The drawers would be the floors and interior walls. The drawer faces would be the back inner and outer walls. Breaking up the cladded exterior stairs as upstairs and downstairs, not one piece, that could be the handles.

Or maybe I just need some sleep before I get more ideas

[cowboyleland]

I am struggling with the punching cowboy. Neither of his hands are shown and nothing I draw in looks right.

[Vermin King]

The one cow-boy on the bottom row has his right hand clinched over his belt, and the other one is holding a beer bottle. Could either one be turned into a fist?

Ten days left for the Hoard, so I think I will do this 'Layer Cake' fashion. Main roof will be a triangular box that sits on the upper floor. Upper floor will sit on the floor/ extension roofs plate. That will lift off to give access to the lower floor. I am running short on time, so the rear stairs may only be the exterior box. The lower floor will be on a foamcore base so that I can keep the front porch. Now that the format is decided on, I can proceed to actually having a building rather than panels of a building

[cowboyleland]

Feb 19, 2020 8:32:22 GMT -9 Vermin King said:

The one cow-boy on the bottom row has his right hand clinched over his belt, and the other one is holding a beer bottle. Could either one be turned into a fist?

I tried that. I will have time again Thursday eve.

[Vermin King]

Started to work on the main floor, but I need to work out the stair situation (how many times does it always come down to STAIRS?)



I also need to work out the posts for the porch roof. The one sits on the porch floor and the other sits on the ground.

Trying to wrap my head around how this will all go together, and more importantly, come apart and go back together again. I think the whole front end and lower level can be glued together as one unit. Now that I am seeing the floor (minus the back details), the ceilings over the bar and opposite wall will not leave room to reach in. I think I will have them fold over from the side walls and sit on a bracket when in the down position. When in the down position, the second floor with the flat extension roofs will sit on them. So they really are necessary

[Vermin King]

Played around with formatting things tonight, shooting for a logical progression of parts. Spent way too much time figuring out ways to do the bracket on the front and back walls for the 'soffito' to sit on, and way too much time trying to figure out the back wall and stairs. I think I need to do some sketching and drafting

EDIT --

Here's where I am at on formatting things











Those little 4-segment rectangles are the brackets for the soffito to sit on. Porch posts are done. Need to get the stairs worked out. I was thinking of having them based at the end of the bar, doubling back inside the saloon, with a service door under the stairs at the far end of the back wall, but the service door needs to be nearer the bar itself. I suppose it could also be at the base of the stairs rather than under them. hmmm

[cowboyleland]

I did the bar tender. Should I be collecting these together onto one page or will you have some space on your pages to make them part of a set?

[Vermin King]

Probably should put them on one page. Trying to arrange parts cutter-friendly, the parts are really crammed together

EDIT --

Started formatting the back.



I am glad I raised the ends slightly to give a little more potential head room in the upstairs, but there really isn't enough head room to do the roof as a triangular box (darnit, since that would have really simplified things).

I think I'm going to use oldschooldm's stairs for the two flights, cardboard-warriors.proboards.com/thread/6993/design-piece-fold-climbable-staircase . One that is open into the saloon and goes up to a landing and then another that goes up to the second floor. The landing at the top would access the hall that runs along the back wall, giving access to the two rooms. I am still debating over whether to have the stair addition as a sub-model from ground to roof that abuts the saloon.

Or, incorporate the lower stairs and the middle landing with the bottom, and then have the upper stairs/landing/roof as part of the second floor layer

[Vermin King]

Over lunch I played with just some generic 'what-if's', and only got one somewhat done. As I've said, I picture an exterior stairs that were enclosed and opened into the saloon for access. oldschooldm mentioned his corner stairs, and I thought 'Hey! If they boxed over the lower part of the stairs and created a landing, open stairs could go into the saloon.' Today I checked geometry to do it, and it is possible, but we are up to the Limited Time portion of the month. So much still to do, and not much time to do it. I think I am just going to have exterior stairs. I should have listened to wyvern to start



There will still be a step up from the landing at the top, but the geometry of the building has me limited. I have altered it slightly already, but I don't want to change the geometry any more than I already have.

EDIT --

Since I had already opted to have windows on the one side of the building, that would mean it either has an alley or street along that side, so I think the stairs placement makes sense, otherwise, I'd have to go with corner stairs going out to the back or a switch-back arrangement. I plan on having the area under the steps boxed in as a little shed.

[Vermin King]

All those little details that make things take longer. Working out which textures to use on the stairs and adjusting the geometry to have the landing. I think I'd have been better off just doing the stairs and creating my own piece to wrap around it. I still might. If I do that, I can make the stairs steeper and have the landing level with the bottom of the door upstairs. Those doors on the back were from the Marshall's Office, but the inner doors need to have the shade in front of the frame, not behind. And it needs to look reasonable. And if I have a storage shed under the stairs, I think I need to make a loading dock platform under the lower back door. I need to work faster

[Vermin King]

I think I'm going to post where I am at so that I can look at what's here and see what should be worked on next.













Still need to do the fold-over wrap-around for the stairs, the extension roofs/ upstairs floor piece, and also the upstairs sides. Not going to do the upstairs interior walls until I do the saloon furniture and a few more people. Need to turn the screen-type bar into a box-type bar, generate the piano, a table and a couple chairs. For the people, I want to do the two card-players that are profiles and the piano player. A big thanks to cowboyleland for working on some of the other figures.

If I can finish the stairs over lunch tomorrow, I'll build the ground floor tomorrow night (which I thought I was going to get to today)

[cowboyleland]

Speaking of which:

[Vermin King]

So many silly things that have to be thought about on this.

I am assuming that presentation board (foamcore) is about the same thickness everywhere, but is it? What I have on hand is 3/16 inches thick, and I have done the design using that number, but does it vary?

The flat roof extensions/upstairs floor piece will eventually develop a curve to it, so I thought I might add a fold-over around the edges with a slight overhang beyond the downstairs walls, but paper thickness may create issues. The little triangular supports between the extension roof and the upstairs sides means tabs need to be on the side walls. They also prevent having front and rear fold-overs for the flat roofs. If I get around to it, I plan on having the upstairs divided into two rooms with a little hall along the back wall. Even if I leave it as one room, I have to figure out the roof to get in there.

It seems strange to have this much done, yet still have so much to do. Kudos to those that do buildings with interiors all the time. My guess is that when you are designing your own buildings, rather than kitbashing someone else's work, you develop a system that works and design accordingly. But on this, I pretty much have to work things out to fit the artwork

[Vermin King]

Whittled away at it a bit over lunch















EDIT --

Yes, I know paper is not that expensive, but I didn't want to print the floor without anything to go on it, so I made the bar.

Looking through some of Sergio Toppi's material, I noticed that he has some repeating characters that are recolored or are in different poses. I was trying to find a guy that could be the card player with his back to us, but haven't found one.

I guess what I'm saying is that I want to have at least one table and at least one empty chair and the profile card players before I start printing. I also plan on working on the piano and piano player tonight.

[Vermin King]

Tonight really did not go far. I really want to have the piano and piano player.



bravesirkevin's chair back is there for scale

[Vermin King]

Over lunch today, I think I might be able to finish the piano. Found this vintage piano for doll houses, but when I imported the image into Gimp, it did not have to be shrunk very much. As with many vintage models, there was considerable straightening to be done, and adjusting dimensions that were incorrect. This one is not as tall or deep as the Toppi piano, but once I get the parts that extend out from the box worked out, adjusting the box should be relatively easy.





Here's where I've gotten thus far

[Vermin King]

Finished the piano and player



Printed up the first five pages so I can start building the first floor tonight. The second floor floor and first floor roof is done, but I didn't print off, yet. There's plenty of room on there to put the upstairs inside side walls, but I am reluctant to print it off yet, since I don't know about the time to finish turning the upstairs into two rooms. And I am thinking of having the tabs on the side walls being actual planks from the front and back walls, since the outside front and back walls have those little supports. It's either that or only have tabs above the supports on the back. It isn't an issue on the front, since this is designed to be taken off.

My third idea on the main roof may still have life. If each side of the roof attaches to the exterior side wall, the peak could be joined with interlacing tabs. That way the roof can be opened to give access to the upstairs rooms. We'll see how it goes

I guess I need to do some bases with the floor texture...

We could sure use some dance hall girls

[Vermin King]

I just designed the bar to be built like Mauther did it, and the way it was oriented on the page made me think that it was the way to go, but I think that the brass bars are foot rests, not arm rests. Oops