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Post by Vermin King on Apr 15, 2020 15:54:50 GMT -9
Well, as subtly suggested by oldschooldm, I went back and added a bottom to the box which sits inside the portico/arch. As the closest thing to a source is an illustration from 1830, I am going to break up the roof of this as seen below Going to get the shop end roofs to look more like the illustration also, and I will use the patterns for the shops lower end walls from this, too. I am not sure of the date of this painting, but it is more abstract than the illustration and therefore not good to develop architecture EDIT -- The illustration gives a possibly wrong impression that the outer edge of the roof is exposed stonework. The painting makes me think it could have been exposed earlier, but was clad in lead to stop leaks. Maybe. At any rate, there is definitely a break-off line at the edge of the stonework, at least a seam. And the lead sheeting appears to run vertically in both the illustration and the painting, so will mine.
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Post by Vermin King on Apr 16, 2020 17:43:53 GMT -9
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Post by Vermin King on Apr 19, 2020 14:07:08 GMT -9
Hopefully, I can get my head wrapped around what direction I want to go on the shops. Wasted way too much time trying to fix photos of modern Rialto Bridge, only to realize that the wooden part has probably been changed out fifty times since the end of the Republic. What's there is not what WAS there. Today, the shops open to the inside, but many of them have back doors. In Canaletto's time, the shops didn't go all the way through, and there were shops along the inside and the outside. Images like these show this as the case. The wooden boxes over what is today flat plates must have held the awnings seen in many paintings. But I can get clues from modern photos Mainly door placement, but like in retail space today, there were modifications to meet the tenants' needs. Some of these appear to have shuttered windows, others have a panel that probably hinged up to the ceiling, and some even had double doors. So, once I get the stonework fixed, I will have to design the wooden portions. I think that I will do those three versions and place them in the different openings
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Post by oldschooldm on Apr 19, 2020 20:12:58 GMT -9
I want to build this at D&D game scale as a showcase playable location! I'd even commit storage space so it doesn't have to fold flat.
:-)
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shep
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Post by shep on Apr 19, 2020 23:34:56 GMT -9
I want to build this at D&D game scale as a showcase playable location! I'd even commit storage space so it doesn't have to fold flat. :-) I see it as the center piece of a game table for Carnevale...
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shep
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Post by shep on Apr 19, 2020 23:47:35 GMT -9
Hopefully, I can get my head wrapped around what direction I want to go on the shops. Wasted way too much time trying to fix photos of modern Rialto Bridge, only to realize that the wooden part has probably been changed out fifty times since the end of the Republic. What's there is not what WAS there. Today, the shops open to the inside, but many of them have back doors. In Canaletto's time, the shops didn't go all the way through, and there were shops along the inside and the outside. Images like these show this as the case. The wooden boxes over what is today flat plates must have held the awnings seen in many paintings. But I can get clues from modern photos Mainly door placement, but like in retail space today, there were modifications to meet the tenants' needs. Some of these appear to have shuttered windows, others have a panel that probably hinged up to the ceiling, and some even had double doors. So, once I get the stonework fixed, I will have to design the wooden portions. I think that I will do those three versions and place them in the different openings I guess, you have to take into account that shops then were nothing like shops today. From what I read about the mercantile life in the old Republic (this sounds so Star Wars), I think a large open sales window was considered a shop. So, I'd guess that the shops on Rialto bridge were more like market booths that could be barred up for the night. I can even imagine that there were merchants who owned several booths and rented them out on a daily basis. So, practically, those might have been Renaissance pop-up stores...
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Post by Vermin King on Apr 20, 2020 5:05:21 GMT -9
Well, as I spent the weekend without any energy, and today I'm ill with totally new symptoms, I can tell you this will not be done for the Hoard, but I share a lot of sentiments I am reading -- showcase, centerpiece, etc.
I should have been a lot further along with this than I am. It has not been as fun of a project as I originally thought it would be. But it is enormously interesting. I find that when I fix something, something else gets messed up. And part of it is that my 'vision' of what it should look like on the back end keeps changing. And I think I have valid reasons for some of my decisions, even those decisions that have been shelved for now. It really comes down to needing to do multiple versions of this. Once I get the basic version done, I really want to do a version that has the appearance of the Canaletto paintings with the light beige stonework and the awning boxes and even awnings as options.
The basic version is going to have the aged (whitish gray) stonework, but wood texture for the wood (not blue as it is today). The modern shop photo gives me great ideas on how to design the individual shop fronts. It also has an inspiring view of the trachyte paving. Who would have thought that 400+ years ago, someone would have put high-visibility safety edging on the steps. Edging that has lasted over 400 years, too.
My feeling is that I need to give this the respect it deserves. If it takes three months to do it well (I don't think 'right' is the correct term), it will take three months. If I can get it done in a month, great, but I don't see it being finished that soon.
Enough rambling. I need to get over to Urgent Care
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Post by Vermin King on Apr 20, 2020 6:58:18 GMT -9
And I evidently was not as careful as I should have been Saturday morning going to the store. I now have an acute upper respiratory infection. Prescriptions should be ready to pick up in about an hour.
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Post by oldschooldm on Apr 20, 2020 7:15:57 GMT -9
Crap! Take care of yourself man! We need you!
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Post by ignatious on Apr 20, 2020 7:50:01 GMT -9
Crap! Take care of yourself man! We need you! I echo this sentiment. We definitely need you.
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Post by Vermin King on Apr 20, 2020 8:03:55 GMT -9
Thanks, guys.
No one actually appreciates fully being well. I'm going to try to not take it for granted in the future.
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Post by cowboyleland on Apr 20, 2020 21:21:15 GMT -9
I hope the meds heal you up fast.
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shep
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Post by shep on Apr 20, 2020 21:34:53 GMT -9
Take a few days rest, and take loads of time with the bridge to win Papercuts with it... First get well, then get goin'!
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Post by Vermin King on Apr 21, 2020 4:24:20 GMT -9
Yeah, but most of my issues with this come back to the two-month lull before picking it back up. Can't put it off too long. But thanks for the best wishes. As this is going to be more of an ongoing project, I have a couple questions. 1) I know this will be something that few would use, but I am thinking of doing an alternate version of the shops that are slightly larger, as a shell that slides over the basic shops. This would allow the player to build the basic bridge shops without their roofs and have interiors. I picture that done similarly to airplane and ship formers, or the interlocking ruins models. Center strip that is a fold-over that goes into the shops, with the walls separating the shops slotting in. Is that something folks would be interested in. 2) I mentioned wanting to do a detail option. A page with the awning boxes and a few awnings. Is there anything else that should be added? And I really feel the need for a quick success, so I went through my various Trojan Horse models I have downloaded, and decided the old Canon horse would be the best to redesign. I went through and edited out the soldiers climbing out of it, etc. last night and gave some of the minimal decorations a gold treatment. EDIT -- Here's the original Canon Trojan Horse Hinged joints, canon barrel extended out of the chest, turn the little sniper next into a control box, and decorate it up a bit and I think it could be a good little one-off
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shep
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Post by shep on Apr 21, 2020 4:40:13 GMT -9
Playable interior is always a bonus, especially when the bridge will basically be a 3D gaming table. However, for Carnevale there would basically be no need for an interior, even though TTCombat themselves provide minimal interior detailing on their MDF-buildings (floor patterns). You can see that especially good with the ruined version of their corner shop...
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Post by Vermin King on Apr 21, 2020 4:45:53 GMT -9
As this is not going to be truly a 30mm scaled Rialto Bridge, the shop spaces will not be very large anyway, but I thought it could be a useful option
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shep
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Post by shep on Apr 21, 2020 5:11:16 GMT -9
Sure, why not? I checked with the rules for Carnevale, and it is actually allowed to enter and pass through a building. So, you can enter from the front, and run out through a back door, or leave through a window, or through an upstairs window onto a balcony, roof terrace, etc. The game is very cineastic and parcour-y... However, this also means, a character could hide inside such a shop, or a duel could go through the shops from the inside to the outside of the bridge or vice versa...
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Post by Vermin King on Apr 21, 2020 6:40:26 GMT -9
From what I have seen in various paintings is that it looks like some shops are inside/outside, especially on the ends. My guess is that there are doors between the sides that can be barred from both sides. I think the center walls will have barred doors on both sides, rather than having some open or unbarred.
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Post by Vermin King on May 1, 2020 4:39:47 GMT -9
I wish I had posted the work I had done on the second set of walls. I pulled up the appropriate files and see outlines, no texture. Rebuild or mirror? I still have my second work page, but it isn't squared and sized. It is cleaned up, losing electric lights and conduits, though. I guess I will do the rebuild, though I am sure most folks will not notice the difference
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Post by Vermin King on May 4, 2020 6:37:54 GMT -9
Did a little work on this last night, and I have some concerns.
At this scale, the shops are only 1.93 inches deep, and the stone archwork above the shops is only 1.56 inches across. The height of the opening for the shops is 2.27 inches. Too tall for the width.
I can make the top of the arches more semi-circular, leaving the height of the shop opening at 2 inches, making the shops look better proportionally, but that still leaves things mighty narrow for a door and window on the shop itself. I think I can rationalize that each section of shops only has one shop that opens to both sides, in order to have an interior, but still not room for stuff in there.
I think I am going to have to make things bigger...
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Post by Vermin King on May 5, 2020 6:12:18 GMT -9
I guess, you have to take into account that shops then were nothing like shops today. From what I read about the mercantile life in the old Republic (this sounds so Star Wars), I think a large open sales window was considered a shop. So, I'd guess that the shops on Rialto bridge were more like market booths that could be barred up for the night. I can even imagine that there were merchants who owned several booths and rented them out on a daily basis. So, practically, those might have been Renaissance pop-up stores... Since the Rialto district was a commercial district with warehouses everywhere, I imagine little was kept in the shops when they locked up for the night. They probably took, at least, the more expensive stuff back to the more secure warehouse facilities. I imagine that they had employees (or family) going to the warehouses throughout the day restocking. Even at full scale, there isn't much room in there. You mentioned an open window being considered a shop, which reminded me of Shakespeare's birthplace. Before it was purchased for restoration, it was a butcher's shop As far as my Rialto Bridge project, it is going to take a mostly-complete overhaul. To have anything close to playable space inside a shop, things will have to be enlarged to the point where only one side will be on a page, roof as a separate page, and base on a separate page. I had this current version based on a 320% enlargement of my larger version of the postcard model, which frankly has different engineering than the postcard model, but a lot of it uses that geometry. I really don't want to enlarge this more than where each of the shop parts fill a page. This should get it usable for gaming, and if one wants it even larger, they can go to a print shop and have things printed on 11X17 instead of 8 1/2X11
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shep
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Post by shep on May 5, 2020 8:45:45 GMT -9
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Post by Vermin King on May 5, 2020 10:51:07 GMT -9
My feeling is that those are gaming pieces, not necessarily historic small shops. When you look at old photos and paintings (and looking at how typical buildings are laid out), frontage is at a premium. Those TTCombat shops would probably be medium shops, and would probably be deeper based on the width of the store fronts. Old towns everywhere are similar, narrow and deep, unless you can afford more frontage. Wide storefronts is more of a modern concept. Even looking at some of the modern stores there, most of the big named stores obviously have combined three, four, or five storefronts. Sometimes multiple buildings.
This thing would be gigantic, well more gigantic, if I had the shops 8cm deep. Even as I picture enlarging things, 5.5cm is going to be about the limit, maybe slightly more, which really has me thinking that I have to have each of the six shop segments in each of the four groups go wall-to-wall, not split.
A bit more of a project than I originally imagined. I knew I'd be stretching myself, but I wasn't expecting to stretch quite this far.
In a perfect world, I was hoping to do a scale model of the bridge that would be suitable for gaming, but to keep this at a manageable size, proportions need to be tweaked, I just need to figure out how much tweaking is acceptable.
EDIT --
By breaking things up, I can enlarge things another 110%, 352% from my model I am basing it on. The roof can handle that much if I angle it on the page. Maybe a little more if I make the shops deeper.
As expected, enlarging the base plate for the shops by 110%, gets me to 5.48 cm. I think that widening the deck by an inch and making the shops 0.52 cm wider, I can still keep the proportions from looking way off. Even though I am enlarging by 110%, I will keep the wall height the same as my extended height current version, keeping that wall view more proportional and still allow for doors and such.
AirDave mentions frequently that any model, regardless of size or amount of detail, requires compromise. I think keeping it as small as I can and still keep it as close to 30mm scale, giving an acceptable door height and allowing for two figures to stand in a shop is worth compromising this being a true scale model. Visually, the larger version should look more like the real bridge than the current version.
Next thing I have to do is figure out the central arches. I increased the heights to accommodate the taller shops, but I don't remember whether I simply added height or I did it proportionately. I am afraid I will have to develop it from scratch again, but I should be able to still use most of the textures.
I hope I'm not building up people's hopes only to dash them violently on the rocks
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shep
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Post by shep on May 5, 2020 13:51:11 GMT -9
I never asked you to build those shops onto the bridge. I just wanted to give you the measurments of the buildings from TTCombat, so you could check how well the bridge might fit to a scenery made up of these buildings. Furthermore, I wanted to show you what their shops look like, as an inspiration for your design of the shops on the bridge. All your models end up really good, so I have total confidence in your abilities to create this bridge in the best possible way. Go Vermin King!
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Post by Vermin King on May 5, 2020 15:27:19 GMT -9
I know, but if the space is almost there, I feel like I ought to get this as usable as possible.
I think it should be worth the effort. Doesn't the Rialto Bridge deserve the extra effort?
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shep
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Post by shep on May 5, 2020 21:28:00 GMT -9
All your models end up really good, so I have total confidence in your abilities to create this bridge in the best possible way. Go Vermin King!
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Post by Vermin King on May 6, 2020 7:51:10 GMT -9
Hey, hey! I tricked Gimp into allowing me a large enough palette to enlarge things to the correct size, and then I can cut out parts to fit on letter-sized pages.
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Post by Vermin King on May 7, 2020 7:10:14 GMT -9
Not anything to show, but things have been interesting playing around with the gigantic work page. I can check to see how changes I make to one part will require which changes need to be made to the other parts better. And I am seeing how the road I was traveling with this would have created large problems to deal with. This will allow for a more cohesive development. I hope
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 3, 2020 18:59:59 GMT -9
Remember a while back when I made the comment about my biggest hurdle was trying to familiarize myself again after being away? Well, that's me again tonight. Not sure if I can finish this for Papercuts, but I am sure going to give it a try. I think I have a couple ideas to allow me to do less individual shops and still avoid things looking like I just plopped six of the same shop next to each other to build a segment. Should speed things up a tad.
Part of the work on the pirate playsets involved building base tiles from slim strips of original material. That should help me out when I get to the steps and wharves
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 5, 2020 5:54:02 GMT -9
I had thought that I could generate one side wall stonework and use it for all eight shop faces, then I am trying to build a library of the wooden parts to substitute in. A set of parts to plug into the arches and a set of parts to plug into the storefronts, below the wide bands under the arches. The shops on the inside have a crown molding below the arch and at the top of the wide band. Which show in some of the images looking at the bridge from the ends. Somehow, it seems that awnings attach to the top of the molding. Either way, I have to have an inside version and an outside version. Another issue is those boxes on the outside. In some of the paintings, it appears that wooden awnings were attached to the tops of the boxes, and in others cloth. I don't see evidence that the boxes were ever on the inside, having the molding instead. But that makes me wonder about those bands between the shops and the arches. Were they originally stone that they now paint to match the wood? Are they wood? There is even evidence that there should be a second stonework band below them on both the inside and outside. I wish these painters were consistent in painting what they were looking at I think I should just realize that I will never get a painting of what it is actually like at the time, and take advantage of the disparities to allow me to do what I decide to do, since no one is alive to tell me that it is wrong EDIT -- another thing I realized is that a lot of the 'closed' shops have four panels covering the storefronts. I have seen one image of a shop with two of the panels folded back to get to the door. I imagine that each side had two-panel vertically-hinged doors that when unlocked could be folded back to get to the storefront. I imagine there were locks on the doors under these panels, too. Another thing I noticed on mostly the Canaletto paintings, but also on one of the Marieschi paintings, is that when wooden awnings are depicted, about a third of the time, the awnings on the end shops wrap around the ends of the block of shops, mostly on the arch end, but sometimes on the street end, and sometimes on both. I guess I should have gotten the years that the paintings were done so that I would know if this was something they did for just a few years in a specific decade. Too late now, if I hope to get this done EDIT #2 -- Here's where I got to on lunch today for the shop stonework
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