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Post by Vermin King on Aug 6, 2020 6:56:29 GMT -9
And somehow, my work page image is off from the model pages. Need to get things resolved.
At this point, I have the outer stonework done (except for the geometry resolution) for left and right. I don't want them to be mirrors, but since you can only see one side at a time, I will use the same stonework on the north and south sides.
And let's have a mighty cheer for distractions. I was looking at the Scout and had an idea for a six-wheeled heavy vehicle, so I had to put some of that into a form that I could come back to
EDIT --
I had a bit of questions on my design, so guess what. I got distracted again. The body seemed too familiar, so I went on a hard drive hunt to see if I was actually stealing someone else's design. I am not seeing anything, but after work today, I will need to check more thoroughly
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shep
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Post by shep on Aug 6, 2020 7:48:45 GMT -9
Perhaps you are stealing your own design?
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 6, 2020 8:00:54 GMT -9
I don't think so. The body will look compatible with the Onager, but I think that it reminds me of a cargo pod, but I can't place it. EDIT -- Well, I think most of you realize I have a sort of subconscious Dewey Decimal System floating around in my brain for paper models. That or a Mind Palace. Just think how often I can come up with links to models folks mention. I wasted too much time trying to trace down that cargo pod. If I can't find something similar enough to match up with my sketch, it is enough my own that I shouldn't be concerned about possibly stealing someone else's design. Speaking of stealing, do you remember the Automobil Garage? cardboard-warriors.proboards.com/thread/7095/automobilgarage-illustreret-familie-journal. If you remember, I had to enhance and rebuild a lot of the textures on that, and since the color of the wood in all those paintings is, well, wood, I decided to use the old Hans Christian Madsen textures for the wood on this. Yes, I am feeling a bit reminiscent today. And since this was published back on March 3, 1921, I don't think HCM will mind too much And that brings me to the next setback. My library of painting images for the arches and storefronts are going to be set aside for my latest idea on textures. When I was trying out my unfinished sample storefront, I came to the realization that each storefront varies in width. Assuming that this is related to perspective, one would expect the variation to be getting narrower as you go toward one end, but no. Rather than try to figure out how, I've just been fixing it by setting the grid at 436 pixels and adjusting each of the six segments. I say setback, but that's all it is these days. Back when I did the Automobil Garage, this would have been a show stopper and I would have either started a complete redesign or walked away. Progress?
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 6, 2020 16:49:40 GMT -9
When I started this project, I had a smaller library of paintings. Although most were roughly from the mid-1700's, which is good. Since then I have picked up more, and I generally don't save them unless they are from the 1700's. This is leading to the roof. In my small sample size, probably 75% of the paintings had a brown roof (definitely not the near white of today or the blue shown on the 3d models). Now my library is about 50% brown roofs, 20% verdigris green and 30% grey. And the same painter might have it brown, green or grey. I am now open to doing green if anyone would prefer that
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shep
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Post by shep on Aug 6, 2020 21:42:31 GMT -9
When I started this project, I had a smaller library of paintings. Although most were roughly from the mid-1700's, which is good. Since then I have picked up more, and I generally don't save them unless they are from the 1700's. This is leading to the roof. In my small sample size, probably 75% of the paintings had a brown roof (definitely not the near white of today or the blue shown on the 3d models). Now my library is about 50% brown roofs, 20% verdigris green and 30% grey. And the same painter might have it brown, green or grey. I am now open to doing green if anyone would prefer that I'd have to check my own photos, but when I last visited the bridge, I think to remember the roof being of a grayish-green color, like metal with patina or something... I could be wrong, though.
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shep
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Post by shep on Aug 6, 2020 21:49:05 GMT -9
And that brings me to the next setback. My library of painting images for the arches and storefronts are going to be set aside for my latest idea on textures. When I was trying out my unfinished sample storefront, I came to the realization that each storefront varies in width. Assuming that this is related to perspective, one would expect the variation to be getting narrower as you go toward one end, but no. Rather than try to figure out how, I've just been fixing it by setting the grid at 436 pixels and adjusting each of the six segments. I say setback, but that's all it is these days. Back when I did the Automobil Garage, this would have been a show stopper and I would have either started a complete redesign or walked away. Progress? I know it itches you when things are not absolutely perfect, but perhaps, in this case and before you lose your mind, you might consider making the storefronts all the same size, and perhaps even of rather similar style, with only the shop-specific details changing...
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 7, 2020 4:08:28 GMT -9
You may have noticed how often I do a model of something that I can actually see various views and get measurements on. Think back on Mos Eisley set. Buildings are still standing. With the various movie shots and behind the scenes shots, I could tell how Lucas did things to create the set. Cybertruck- measurements and views. Lunar module, the same.
I had hoped to do a model of the Rialto Bridge as depicted in such-and-such painting by Canaletto in 1739, or the Marieschi painting, or whatever, but none of them supply enough detail. Now from one of the Marieschi paintings, the roof of a group of shops has 21 sections, so I used that, but I have seen it vary between 24 and 33. Artists take a bit of license when they are painting.
I was asking about the roof color because I am starting to embrace the artistic license side of things.
Regarding having at least three types of storefront layouts, it seems that during the early 1800's and before, the shops were open on both sides of the block of shops. That is 12 shops on each of these blocks, and there are 4 blocks of shops, for a total of 48. 48 of the same shopfront would be monotonous. Most of the shops seemed to have the full-sized door at the lower end of the opening with a window in the other half of the opening. That window could be of varying size. Another style has a full-width window opening, with a half-door at the lower end. And then there are the unopened shops with the four-panel doors. I think that 48 of the same storefront would almost look more like stables than stores, so I need to include variation. That variation can also be enhanced by the arch openings, which I assume are for ventilation. In the paintings, they are usually arched shutters. They are shown to either have both sides open or just one or closed, but then they throw a monkey wrench into the mix by showing a few of these vent-opening covers as one piece hinged at the bottom and hanging down. I won't be adding that variation. But now that all my shop openings are uniform in size, I can do three or four variations of the storefronts and plug them in somewhat randomly, and top them randomly with the three arch treatments, and I should have things not look like the same shop over and over and over, without designing 48 shops
EDIT -- I assume that we want to show the bulk of the shops open, correct?
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 7, 2020 8:43:59 GMT -9
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shep
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Post by shep on Aug 7, 2020 22:45:09 GMT -9
I have a feeling that this will be one of the most eye-catching scenery pieces ever in tabletop gaming, once it's done...
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 7, 2020 23:05:31 GMT -9
Thank you. I was a little bit down tonight, though it is really moving in the right direction. Not only do I need to finish up the storefronts, I also need to work on the interiors. I know how I am on returning to projects that I still would like to take to the next level. Almost never. I am sure you have seen models where the complete building is an open-bottom box that slides over ruins. Well the walls are too tall and the rooms too narrow to have the full wall. The interiors will have half walls that extend up to the top of door frames. Those will glue onto the bridge deck, as will the central arches. The shop exterior walls and roofs will slide over these. By having the interior walls go that high, you can see what doors and windows you are working around. The parts above would be for the simpler version. Even though I am making good progress, to do with this what I want to, I won't be able to finish by the end of the month. Real life has to be accommodated, you know.
But taking the deadline pressure off, there should be no reason why I can't have my Papercuts 2021 model done by the end of September, complete with entry stairs and wharves. By end of year, I might even have a few building facades done to fit into the corners of the entrances. And San Giacomo di Rialto (the oldest church in Venice) sits just west of the bridge...
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shep
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Post by shep on Aug 8, 2020 1:34:19 GMT -9
If there is one person that you don't have to tell about the troubles of RL, that'd probably be me... Perhaps it would take even more stress off of you, if you'd design the shops more on the side of playability than detail. Instead of cluttering them with stuff, you could just decorate the walls with the details of each shop, leaving the floors as areas for minis to stand, run through, and duel...
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 8, 2020 4:20:22 GMT -9
Oh, I certainly don't plan on stuff. Simple wooden walls and frames. Trying to find a suitable floor tile pattern for the uppermost and lowermost shops, but the ones in the middle will be the same as the bridge deck
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shep
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Post by shep on Aug 8, 2020 5:26:54 GMT -9
There should be at least some decoration, though, so people know whose shop they turn upside down... EDITI have these signs for the shop version of my modular Venetian house. If you tell me the width of the shops, I could fix you up with a sheet of optionals...
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 8, 2020 6:02:52 GMT -9
I really cannot tell from the paintings what they sold there. Lots of stuff hanging on the front walls and from the awnings, but not enough detail to know what is there
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 8, 2020 8:50:03 GMT -9
Okay, probably questionable information, but a travel site's article says that gold, precious metals, gems and jewelry were the initial merchants when the shops on this bridge were opened. Also, silks and 'draperies'. It seems likely that they sold some product there, but mostly the stallkeepers had sample wares and would accept commissions for finished products to be delivered to the purchaser. Today the stallkeepers primarily sell tourist crap. 400 years of progress. Seriously, the economics of trade in Venice, and of course on the bridge, have changed over time. I have seen in three sources that Venice's wealth initially was from sea salt, not surprisingly. Though much of Europe was under Christian influence and with the pope forbidding trade with Muslims, Venice traded in the Levant, Baghdad and Egypt. Spices, silk, damask, millet and wheat became the strength of their trading influence, with incidental trade in gold, silver, tin and manufactured goods. This incidental trade became more important as time went on, as did finance. It seems to be a question as to whether Venetians learned Bills of Credit from the Templars, or the Templars learned it from the Venetians. Financing became bigger than actual trade, or at least as big. And to protect what they had built, they built their navy. And then they sought to control as an economic superpower and let the navy slide. Only worked for a couple hundred years. At the time the Republic fell, they only had 11 ships in their navy, and only 4 of those were war galleys. Back to the bridge It is hard to make them out, but in the center area, most of the signs are guild signs. Streets in Rialto are also named for Guilds. In the various images, it is hard to see the various wares, except for cloth. There are a few amphora, which I assume is for either wine or oil. There are also baskets and a cart piled high with something. I understand that at the time of Napoleanic and Austrian control, the bridge, as well as much of Venice, was in bad shape. Austria decided to restore things, whereas Napoleon turned churches into warehouses and built French palaces. It was questioned whether the shops should be demolished and whether they should be rebuilt in the same style or another, or if they should be rebuilt at all. Restoration won. I suppose it is like any shopping district, its economy went through waves. I suppose I need to research Venetian Guilds now, but I am tired. My guess is that things like fish and meat were probably sold along the quays, like in the one image. The bridge could possibly have been more of a food court for the various merchants, as well as a network nexus. Could have a bread store, liquor store, or high end jewelry. I think I need to leave it to the builders' imaginations on what they want in there. Due to this not being true 28mm, 30mm or whatever scale, the shops are too narrow to have separate shops on each side, so only 24 shops to fill, not 48 EDIT -- per Francesco Sansovino, no fewer than three bookshops on the bridge. But I really need to stop getting distracted
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 9, 2020 6:06:03 GMT -9
I wish I hadn't read that part about how the Guild Crests are used on the signs. I thought I might grab some to include with the model. Found that towards the end of the Republic, there were 150 Guilds in Venice, and they were grouped into Confraternities. The crests for Venetian guilds, of course, don't use those found throughout Europe. They do like their individuality. But it is easy to find Medieval Guild Crests, German, Florentine and Hungarian, but for Venetian Guilds you have to pull them off Venetian signboards, which evidently were used a lot, but not on the bridge. Most of the ones I have found are Guilds that one wouldn't expect on the bridge: stone-cutters, oar makers, ship carpentry, etc. I have found Baking, Silk-Weaving, Furriers, but not Printers, Jewelers, Goldworkers or Tailors, though I have found their Scuolo.
Back to the model today
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 9, 2020 15:43:49 GMT -9
I have covers on the windows which I will be cutting out for some of the shops. I will also be cutting out some of the doors partially, so that they can be against the inner walls on the open shops. Would you prefer having blacked out windows and doors instead of cut-outs? This should give enough variation. Once I start putting these in place, I am sure I will have to do some color balance EDIT --
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shep
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Post by shep on Aug 9, 2020 22:52:56 GMT -9
This looks awesome! I think the stonework of the bridge needs a little bit more contrast, though...
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 10, 2020 5:45:44 GMT -9
I think you are right. It isn't going to be seen at noon on a sunny day all the time. Luckily, this was a test on my method of generating shops and arch treatments, so there is still the basic stonework in the real file, not the test. I actually have two separate stoneworks, so that the sides you see aren't mirrors of each other. This isn't a true scale model in that the footprint is smaller than 1/50, yet I am trying to get the height to accommodate figures. To get the doors to be normal height and close to normal width, the window area is way too small. I am going to have to play with this. Your forces may have to duck a little to get into the shops. Right now the doors are 1.5 inches tall. I'm not real sure that 1.25 is going to be able to get the storefronts to look right. I will probably have to go to 1 inch or very slightly taller, with the doors narrowed far more than that. Shops need windows. The storefront with the half door weren't as prominent as the full doors on the paintings, but I think for our purposes, they will need to be represented in a higher proportion.
I really hope to luck into finding a source for those guild crest signs. If anyone sees a site for Venetian Guild Crests, please pass it on.
I still think the bulk of purchases on the bridge back then were orders. You are on the bridge, and you are needing a piece of jewelry for your lady, when you see the Guild Crest for Jewelers. You go to the shop where there are many pieces on display. You might purchase one of the pieces you see, but more than likely you will commission a piece that you can pick up at the shop Friday. Or the shopkeeper, having a better idea of what you are looking for, may send his apprentice or journeyman to the warehouse or his larger shop elsewhere and bring back items he thinks you may be more interested in. Even full scale, there just wouldn't be enough room for inventory. I still think of the remark about three booksellers on the bridge. You can display your books and have a small inventory, but they have to have had a larger inventory elsewhere. And three out of 48 shops means they must do a large enough business that three booksellers are profitable enough to pay to be there.
I suppose that I can use the crests that I can find, but then use Florentine crests (the standard for most of Italy) for others. I still haven't found the Florentine crest for booksellers, though. That's one thing I know about the vendors there. Three booksellers
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shep
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Post by shep on Aug 10, 2020 10:40:19 GMT -9
www.venicethefuture.com/schede/uk/317?aliusid=317 has some guild insignias. However, I fail to save the pictures. Maybe, you'll have to reconstruct them... www.libreriaemiliana.com/home-eng/ is the oldest still active bookstore in Venice. Their logo in the top-left corner of the webite might work a shop sign... Also, I found these (Florentine ones)... and you might be able to use some of these German ones... and I'm pretty sure, that at least one mask maker (most probably several more) would have had a shop on the bridge...
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 10, 2020 12:01:43 GMT -9
Bless you, sir. I had been to that site before looking for Guild info, but did not think to use their search engine. I now have the Mark of Manuzio, one of the first and most-prolific printing houses.
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Post by Vermin King on Aug 14, 2020 9:11:56 GMT -9
I know. It has been several days since I posted, but my question on making things look right has had me going in several directions. Decreasing the door height and width to allow a more natural looking window results in space above the door that needs addressed. If you remember, I added height to everything to allow for normal doors. If I remove two layers of stonework ( a stone that goes all the way across layer and the layer that has two ends ), that takes care of my issue of the extra height. Looks like that will give a door height of 1.15 inches, short for the Carneval figures, but adequate enough for 30mm or smaller. I'm not sure that the larger Carnevale figures would look too tall against this. They might, but it will allow for a better looking model and probably only look a bit small, even though we know it is about 3/4 scale for 30mm figures. I have to make the adjustments on the stonework on the sides, ends and the apex arches, but I think this is the solution I have to go with, unless someone comes up with a better idea.
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Post by Vermin King on Oct 11, 2020 16:39:04 GMT -9
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Post by oldschooldm on Oct 11, 2020 20:09:52 GMT -9
Wow! I still want to build a Playable version of the Realto bridge!
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Post by Vermin King on Oct 12, 2020 1:58:39 GMT -9
Dario sent me a photo of a paper model that is in a restaurant window in Venice. Between that and the German model railroad, I am starting to get the urge to go back to this
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Post by Vermin King on Oct 16, 2020 6:52:44 GMT -9
Here is the photo that monstersbtm took This is a model of a more modern Rialto, and I totally dislike how they did the pavers, but it gives me more than a few ideas on how to proceed
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Post by squirmydad on Oct 16, 2020 9:25:43 GMT -9
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Post by monstersbtm on Oct 16, 2020 10:20:12 GMT -9
They should have a store in Venice.. Maybe next time... 😊
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Post by Vermin King on Oct 16, 2020 10:20:23 GMT -9
You would have to buy two and figure out how to blend them together to get the two rows of shops
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