shep
Eternal Member
Red Alert! Shields up! LENS FLARE!!!
Posts: 1,260
|
Post by shep on Jun 6, 2020 2:23:32 GMT -9
Do these need to be whiter? I have to add the yard onto the reverse and then bring over the exposed portions to the front. Not sure if I will get to it tonight or not I think the color is almost perfect, the ideal mix between bleached by the sun and dirty from work...
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 6, 2020 5:05:20 GMT -9
Heading out of town this weekend, but did rename files and folders this morning and did a little more cleanup on the sails. Front and Back. I was also studying the yards on this dhow's sails and on the bragosso sails. There were a couple photos where the yard seems to be one long pole, but generally they are like the ones in the sail files. Three poles lashed together. In the dhow, it looks like there are canvas loops at the top of the sail that the yard pieces slide through, besides being lashed together. On the bragosso, I am going to do that, also. Not that it is period correct, nor have I seen any evidence that it was done that way on any of the paintings, but in the paintings I see nothing to help explain how the sails were attached to the yard. I would prefer the sails not being held up by magic.
For the model, I intend to have the sails glued to the long masts. Since the long masts should be removable, the mast/yard/sail parts should store relatively flat. And now that I have found the name for these, I have found more images, even photos. Now I know that the smaller sail should be on the forward mast, not the aft mast.
Have you noticed that I seem to move better on projects that I have to research than I do when I just need to mimic an item?
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 7, 2020 16:39:19 GMT -9
Between two-hour drives and more Randolph Scott movies than I ever care to see again, I had time for some thoughts on the sails.
Some people would like to see this with sails and masts down, others might want the sails furled against the yards, others might want it docked with the masts up and sails down, or even with masts down and sails drying or used as awnings. They might want to show the same boat doing different things.
There is a number of ways to handle this. As I originally thought, since the masts should be removable, you could swap in different masts for different looks. I also considered making open-end boxes to glue onto the yards and snuggly slide over the masts to swap things out. During the last Randolph Scott movie, it occurred to me that an old-time solution might not be bad. Tab and slot. If you have a crescent moon shaped slot on the yard and an inverted V cut into the mast, the masts and yards can fit together and gravity would hold in place. Easy to swap things out or take apart for storage. Maybe I can finish the yards on the sails tonight and get a start on the partially closed sails. We'll see
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 8, 2020 5:52:54 GMT -9
The yards are composed of several poles lashed together and run through the loops in the canvas. While working on this, it occurred to me that when they take the sails down, these were probably the poles that they use near the docks and in the canals to push the boat around. It is probably a rare thing for one to need replacing, so I am going to make these poles more weathered than the masts. The large sail has five of these poles, but I am going to make it four for the smaller sail. It would be easier to do three for the large sail and two for the small one, but I prefer to develop this based on visual evidence, and that means more poles
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 8, 2020 12:49:44 GMT -9
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 8, 2020 15:41:11 GMT -9
I really want the masts to be long and thin, like they were in real life, but that makes things difficult for lateen sails. Unless they connect to the masts in the wrong spot, I am not seeing any other way to do these except by gluing to the mast, or by making things worse for ease by requiring rigging. I was hoping to come up with a solution as elegant as grendelsmother64's boats, but that requires tapering masts. Maybe I am going to have to end up going that direction, but I would rather not. Assuming my solution for removable masts works, I would rather work from that direction, and have separate masts for under sail and not under sail. Maybe something will come to me while I am building, but having reviewed 14 sailing ship models tonight, I am drawing a blank. I think I just need to start building
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 9, 2020 12:06:35 GMT -9
Started work on test build #2. You may notice that I livened up the colors a bit. Digitally sampling the painting left the colors too dark on my first test build, so even though it is a work boat, I wanted it to look a bit brighter. I like how it printed out. I left the interior fairly dark, lightened the end decks and the supports, but darkened the area under the decks between the frames
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 10, 2020 15:22:45 GMT -9
A little time last night. A little time at lunch. A bit more time after dinner. While typing this, I am printing off the masts. Should get the end decks on tonight and start building masts. I like the rudder and the new colors EDIT -- Still not happy with the end decks, so I am not gluing these in. The nice thing about papermodels is that you can always go back and print new pieces. I knew the pointy end needed to be longer, while the rest needed shortening. In doing that, I did not allow for the width closer to the end being too wide. At the point where the first tabs from the end are located, the deck needs to be slightly less than 1.5 inches. At the next tabs in, it needs to be 2 3/8. Back to Gimp
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 11, 2020 9:33:22 GMT -9
Tweaking the deck geometry was more involved than it should have been. Me and my sledgehammer approach. I created pieces by extracting the outlines and doing black and white test parts. Three tweaks later, I got pieces that fit well, so I have textured that version and will check it out tonight. The white build worked, so this one should be fine Then I can build the masts EDIT -- Blast! Yes, the masts can be midship Or two-masted During a webinar I was seeing if I could find some people to work on the work boats and gondolas EDIT #2 -- Night is not going as planned, but the end decks are in. I was trying for an exterior hull to be similar to many of the ship illustrations above, which I am fairly satisfied with. The lighter upper decks matches the paintings. The rudder handle should be about hip high on a figure. So far so good
|
|
shep
Eternal Member
Red Alert! Shields up! LENS FLARE!!!
Posts: 1,260
|
Post by shep on Jun 11, 2020 21:26:03 GMT -9
Why don't you attach some kind of short tube to the rigging point of the sails that goes over the masts? Like, the mast are long poles standing up from the ship, right? And they are wider at the bottom than at the top, right? So, what if you have a small ring or tube attached to the sails at the point where they would be attached to the masts, that simply slides over the top of the masts and down to the point on the masts where the sails need to go? For storage, the tube gould simply be folded flat... Also, you should provide enough parts for one or two masts, with the attachments for the masts to be placed freely by the person who build the ship – either one attachment in the midde (one mast) or two attachments near the upper decks (two masts)... Obviously, very daring builder could then just as well place three attachments for three masts...
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 11, 2020 21:39:49 GMT -9
I have some very pretty masts, but they are too thick. And the lash-together tall mast/short mast thing is secure enough that I think it would be no problem supporting the weight of the sails, but my masts are WAY too thick. As the masts are hexagonal, I have to decide if each face should be reduced by 1/3 or 1/2. I couldn't sleep, so I got up to play with it. Now I am wishing I had taken a photo to post, but I had thought to wait until morning. EDIT -- I don't know if you ever drove posts, but a post-driver is very similar to the pile-drivers used in building foundations in Venice Leaving off the handles, I had thought of using a tube slightly larger diameter than the mast, closed on the top end as a mount. With the narrower masts, there should be room on the page to do that. Instead of printing off the new masts, I probably should have printed off the sails, but I think I can actually head back to bed now. Night all
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 12, 2020 4:44:07 GMT -9
Here are my original masts. They look good, just not on this boat. I hope the thinner ones do better, or I may have to go back to my idea of having the shorter masts taper and the tall masts slide over them. Printed off sails this AM
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 13, 2020 5:12:34 GMT -9
The idea for the masts would work well if the end decks were smaller, but look awkward in this case. So I am going to have swappable masts that go through a hole in the end decks. Going to have a box underneath to keep things aligned. As I am out of town, I won't be able to work on it more until Sunday night. I am fairly happy with the new mast thickness. I also like the sail mount. So the builder will be able to display under full sail, or with no sails and the masts up, or with the short masts.
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 14, 2020 15:48:58 GMT -9
Cutting holes in decks already installed is proving to be interesting
Luckily, I had test build #1 to practice on
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 16, 2020 5:18:14 GMT -9
Actually, my test build #1 holes look better than the other. Ouch. On the capped tubes for the sail mounts, I didn't have them wide enough to comfortably slide over the top of the mast. Likewise the little mast base tube that glues to the bottom of the boat to keep the mast securely upright was too narrow. Not wanting to print off those parts by themselves, I started working on Dad's Fathers Day card, which is almost done. There will be plenty of room to print the new parts on the blank half a page. I'll lay it out over lunch and then finish the Bragòsso tonight and probably have the card done, too. One thing to note on the card, it doesn't have a back to cover the tabs of the mechanism. I will have to add one, but it needs to be done in such a way that you can still swap out the photo. Hmmm EDIT -- Thought I would share where I am at on the Bragòsso I mirror printed the back of the sails onto the front. Most people would want to print separately. If so, print the front on regular paper. Since the back mounts onto the sail mount, you will want that to be printed on the heavier card (67 lb or less) For the Fathers Day card, here is where I am at (with the sail mounts)
|
|
shep
Eternal Member
Red Alert! Shields up! LENS FLARE!!!
Posts: 1,260
|
Post by shep on Jun 16, 2020 9:02:20 GMT -9
For the back of the sails, you should move the shadow to the middle. Otherwise, it would be looking as if they would billow in both directions...
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 16, 2020 9:35:19 GMT -9
I don't think it is necessarily 'moved to the middle', but the upper shadowing needs to extend through the middle, and the shadowing at the base of each sails needs to be lightened. Part of what we are seeing isn't really shadow, but the darkening from seeing things at an angle. I will definitely need to revise the file
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 16, 2020 14:03:17 GMT -9
My sail mounts are not long enough. Actually, the sails should be larger, but there is only so much room on a piece of paper. The masts should extend farther above the sail than that, but I already mentioned that I shortened the masts. Now I have to decide if I want to make longer mounts, or shorten the masts, or lengthen the mounts AND shorten the masts. But the caps that the sails mount to slide easily off and on the masts, so that is a good thing. I also need to play with the shading on the backside of the sails. But things are getting close to being done
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 16, 2020 17:27:54 GMT -9
I think I am leaving the new shadows on the sails to someone else. You can only see one side of the sails at one time anyway. Shortened the masts by one inch (they were already printed). Had to Jury-rig the one mast since it didn't have the mounting box in the bottom of the boat to keep it stable. If you mount the hex-ring where indicated and cut the hole in the decks where indicated, the masts will be stable. Sails can be removed. Masts can be removed. Short masts can be placed if the sails are down. At this point, I am calling this done. No partially furled sails, no tubs of fish, no sail/awning shading the deck. Maybe sometime when I am bored, but we all know how that goes EDIT -- Guess I should post the new mast and sail mount page
|
|
shep
Eternal Member
Red Alert! Shields up! LENS FLARE!!!
Posts: 1,260
|
Post by shep on Jun 16, 2020 21:16:25 GMT -9
I understand that you're not satisfied, yet, but see it this way: Your boat is coming along...
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 17, 2020 4:00:31 GMT -9
Actually, I just need to move on. Since I know of no other models of this type of boat, it is the best one out there to my knowledge. I might build another to take beauty shots, but I am calling this done
|
|
shep
Eternal Member
Red Alert! Shields up! LENS FLARE!!!
Posts: 1,260
|
Post by shep on Jun 17, 2020 4:42:12 GMT -9
Is a one-masted version still possible with this build?
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 17, 2020 5:21:07 GMT -9
I can do that with no problem, but it won't be this week. Give this thread a bump next week and I will get to work on it.
In the paintings, where you see one sail, it typically was on the end, but now that I am finding images with mid-ship sails, there is a plank that runs rail-to-rail mid-ship. The images are not clear on how the mast is mounted. I picture the plank, which is fairly wide, being double-sided. I will have to design it so that it mounts solidly to the sides of the boat. Double-sided to give it rigidity. In the center, off to one side will be a ring for the mast to slide into. There will be a box underneath this that does not go all the way to the bottom of the boat. Another ring piece will glue onto this box or possibly part of the box. This set-up will give good support for the mast. And the sails can be lifted off the mast, or the mast can be removed.
If I do it with a vertical part to support the plank, or make the plank more of a triangular prism, the plank could be removed to have the boat in the most commonly seen version in the paintings, which is no masts at all.
I hope to do my Beauty Shot build next week, hopefully. This also reminds me that since the masts are totally down most of the time when docked, I should design caps for the mast holes when no masts are in play.
If you are good at shading, feel free to have a go at the backside of the sail. My efforts all looked horrible.
I will have to see how much room the center-mast plank and mount take up, but I think there should be room for a sail that has been loosely secured to the yard as another option, and the sail mount piece for it. I saw another ship model with the sails brought up like that, and there are images of this stage of things in some of the paintings, so I think I should add it, when I have time
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 23, 2020 7:40:43 GMT -9
If one wants a midship mast, you need to have something to cover the holes in the end decks, so I added coils of rope. I saw a photo in a search of 'coils of rope boat', enhanced it, deleted out the color on many selections, then filled with one of the remaining colors, and did three more unsharp masks, and ended up with something better than I figured I would get. Still trying to work out the plank that the center mast would attach to. It needs to sit solidly in the boat or the mast ( and plank) will topple. I also have to account for the sail's center of gravity being astern of the mast. To get gravity to do part of the work, the mast attachments need to be forward of the plank. I think I will slap Charon's ferry together while I ponder this
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 23, 2020 18:37:24 GMT -9
Well, I am entrenched in the idea of having one boat with multiple sail/mast conformations. I have a way to swap out masts for the end deck positions, and removable sails. I still think I want to have a version of the sails loosely pulled up to the yards. I have now seen versions of the boat with the center plank that is used to facilitate handling the fishing nets and cargo. I have seen paintings with the mid-ship masts, definitely on Bragòssos, not Ràsconas. On these, there always seems to be the center plank, but I haven't a clue how the mast is attached in the middle of the boat.
For the average builder who isn't concerned about swapping things, glue the center plank in place. It will have a ring for the mast to slide through. Slide in the mast and glue to the bottom of the boat. With the plank and mast glued, there would be ample support for the sail's weight.
For mine, I think I will glue the center plank in place, with the mast support ring, and make a brown mast support base, similar to the ones under end decks. Just not finding an elegant solution
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 24, 2020 5:36:45 GMT -9
Found another painting with mid-ship masts. Not helpful but changes how I need to look at it. It didn't enlarge well There is what looks like a metal ring/flange/cylinder that the mast goes through. And that ship behind it looks so much like that pirate felucca, I can't help but think the felucca would be appropriate for the Bacino/lagoon EDIT -- When I was making a 'quick errand run' today, it occurred to me that for the average Joe, my solution of having the center plank with mast support ring along with a brown mast base support will probably work for most builders. And rather than trying to hide it, I think it will be metallic, like it is supposed to be there, whether or not a center mast is in place. I think I have an oxidized sheet metal texture from the buggies that could be used for this if I darken it, and use the same texture for the ring coming off the center planking. The center plank will have to be glued in place, but these are seen in some of the photos in two-mast, single end-mast and no-mast configurations. On one of my boats it would need to be slightly less than 4 1/4 inches long. On the other, just under 4 3/8. So I am going to make it slightly less than 4.5 inches and the builder will trim to fit his boat. I think I should be able to finish these parts tonight and start printing
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 25, 2020 4:22:37 GMT -9
I decided to do the ring and base as a cast/wrought iron texture. Spent a lot of time chatting with neighbors last night, and lost track of time. Still need the mast base mount
|
|
|
Post by Vermin King on Jun 25, 2020 17:52:29 GMT -9
Not sure if lightning is online while on holiday, but if you see this Chris, can I mod your free tubs to haul fish in these boats? I think I will for myself anyway, but won't share without permission. Got the partially furled sails and the center mast parts done, but not printed. I wish there were more usable images of boatmen and commoners
|
|
shep
Eternal Member
Red Alert! Shields up! LENS FLARE!!!
Posts: 1,260
|
Post by shep on Jun 25, 2020 23:02:51 GMT -9
|
|
|
Post by Zephalo on Jun 26, 2020 1:38:06 GMT -9
Here's a gondolier (with gondola): Greetings, Zephalo
|
|