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Post by oldschooldm on Dec 23, 2020 21:06:01 GMT -9
I know oldschooldm would disagree, but I have been spending too much time contemplating how to make this fold-flat. It is feasible if one doesn't attach the extremely solid balcony. Frankly, glennwilliams's Back Alley roof that would slide over the top and hold things square would make it 'nearly' fold-flat. Since Glenn has gotten several kudos on the Back Alley roofs for having a low enough slope to allow the roofs to be easily playable space, and since I like what that style roof allows for storability, tonight I worked on a set of roofs with the low pitch. As the building is square, and the sides are fairly long, I will have it divided onto two pages. Actually, one page printed twice. On terracotta roofs, there is a line of tiles that goes over the edges and along the crown. I am trying to work out a way to have this without having to do overlaying strips. On the other hand, monstersbtm mentioned altanes/altana, the Venetian answer to a rooftop garden. A steeper roof would make having an altana more reasonable. But with a steeper roof, I will only be able to fit one roof face per page, so the roof would be four pages. Some of the altana parts could fit in the extra space. Since I still haven't replaced my printer, I have time to work it out. Nah, I don't disagree. Only make things fold flat if it makes sense. My recent youtube video showed that it's possible to go too far that way... youtu.be/Zvl7lQdRCvsKeep it simple.
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 23, 2020 21:26:35 GMT -9
But, I think it is such an added value, it has to be considered. Back Alleys is mostly fold-flat. I have to consider it. EDIT -- Oops. My idea for doing the cap tiles was taken one step too far. The segment that lies along the tab should have been omitted. And I did not save my interim version. This would have a probable alignment issue, but it is getting late. So, this was my first attempt at a glennwilliams - style roof. EDIT #2 -- Fixed Score where indicated. The cap tile line folds over onto the roof after attaching the roof sections together. Now you don't have to worry about alignment issues
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Post by glennwilliams on Dec 24, 2020 8:31:19 GMT -9
I considered a fold flat roof, then quickly abandoned the idea. However, looking at your image, I wonder if one a connector like this would work:
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 24, 2020 13:47:37 GMT -9
With the flap covering the joins, a number of options are available. Only to keep the rest fold-flat, you need solid cornices under the actual roof. I know people do things like that, but other than a tab/slot arrangement, I am not sure how to handle the cornice corners
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 28, 2020 7:13:01 GMT -9
I really want to do a version with the Altane, so I repositioned the roof pieces to see how much room I would have to increase the slope of the roof Not enough room to make enough difference. But if I go back to having one roof piece on a page, I could increase the height of the roof and have the altane and access parts in the remaining space.
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Post by monstersbtm on Dec 28, 2020 7:27:29 GMT -9
What if you exaggerate the slope of the dormer? The door that gives access to the altana must obviously be vertical, but the roof of the dormer can be as steep as you want. Another solution (but I'm not sure about how historically correct it is) could be giving access to the altana by a trapdoor on the floor of the altana itself. You could just work out a connector between the roof and the altana, to position below the trapdoor to leave no empty space. What do you think about it?
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 28, 2020 7:37:38 GMT -9
I have not seen a trapdoor, but I have seen access through small windows on dormers, similar to the first image. I wasn't planning on having a full-sized door, however I decide to do this. The altana is an interesting concept. Because buildings are so tightly packed together, air flow is restricted. Servants quarters were generally on the top floor because the sun beating down on the tile roofs made things extremely warm in the summer on the top floor. The altana gives one a way to escape the heat and by having the platform raised, it shadows the roof and allows some air flow between the terrace and the roof, making the upstairs more bearable. Quite ingenious.
I am leaning towards doing an access similar to the second image, and I wasn't going to try to match the roof angle
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Post by monstersbtm on Dec 28, 2020 8:24:55 GMT -9
I checked with my Venetian friends and they confirmed that trapdoors are a possibility. It's difficult for us to see them of course, usually we see buildings from the streets or from satellite view. Clearly, the most popular access was by dormers. Remember that altana were a solution for common people : palazzi usually have none of them. It's a commoner thing. 😉
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 28, 2020 19:39:28 GMT -9
On palazzi, they had servants up there, so less of an issue. I keep reading about 'houses for the poor' that were actually purchased by the city. Typically, former palaces or nicer residences that were long past their prime. These got subdivided for the families that lived there. I read that Casanova's grandmother rented her home in a poor house, but Casanova's parents bought theirs. So, I wonder if it was like a condominium for poor folk. Venice had really poor unskilled folk, but they also had semi-skilled workers, servants and slaves. Then there were classes of tradesmen, merchants, clergy and nobles. My guess is that altana were probably something rising-class folk might have. They would have funds to pick up a somewhat older residence, and as they became more successful, this was something they could do to add value to their home and make it more live-able. I also read that at any time 10% to 25% of the population consisted of foreigners who would often rent rooms or suites. A room with an altana would be like a cruise-ship cabin with a balcony. My work on getting a roof that would look like it should have an altana is less than successful. The roof looks good, but probably not really steep enough. Close enough to experiment with, though. www.visitvenezia.eu/en/venetianity/discover-venice/on-the-roofs-of-venice-chimneys-altane-and-liago
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Post by monstersbtm on Dec 29, 2020 0:13:26 GMT -9
Interesting article indeed! Thanks for sharing. I have never thought about sold palazzi actually. It's a great way to integrate altane.
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 29, 2020 8:42:40 GMT -9
Oops! Assumptions always seem to get me in trouble. I assumed that the slope on the end panels was the same as the side panels on the Back Alleys roofs. Nope. I determined the pitch of the taller roof for the Dario Building, and wanted to compare to the original, only to find that the roof peaks on the shallow version will not meet up. I am always grateful to designers who do test builds. I am glad I caught this before releasing it. No, I will not be getting a new printer until the January commissions hit, so if someone would have tried to build it before I actually released it, they would have rightfully been ticked off. So, I thought I would use the roof profile to start work on the altana this afternoon and evening, but I need to fix the shallow roof first. I do like the slope on the tall roof. I plan on making a dog house type structure on the top for access. There is enough slope to allow for a proper altana. I plan on doing some optional parts for it. Many of these have room-height posts at the corners with thin beams connecting them (sometimes only rope, but wooden beams are easier for paper). Folks would hang curtains on these for privacy, or lamps, or plants, and quite often, laundry. The way I picture this, since the roof pitch is the same on all sides, is that the altana could be on any of the faces of the roof, depending on how you plan on using the structure. EDIT -- Taking the long panel of the long side of the Back Alleys roof, and enlarging to where the length of the edge of the roof matches the diagonal edge my roof and rotating a perpendicular sliver of that roof gives me a nice shallow pitch. Not exactly glennwilliams's pitch, but close.
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 29, 2020 19:54:37 GMT -9
Fixed. Got sidetracked looking for a quick project that would look good in gray scale. But this should be close to the pitch of the Back Alleys shallow roofs Honestly, I think this looks better with the roofline tiles. Now, I am tempted to go back and revise the tall roof. I don't remember which project I was wanting to look grungy, but I found my moldy overlays tucked away in my texture library, and think I will apply them to this building. So, it really is turning into more of a showpiece. Can be used with the sortoportego abutting a canal, another building, or a piazza or corte. Choice of shallow or steeper roof. Cleaner or grungier. And hopefully in the next couple days, the altane. I would be tempted to tell folks to just use glennwilliams's chimneys, but I think I need to come up with my own. Oh, and it has an optional balcony. This was supposed to be a quick throw-together design, but it seems to have taken on a life of its own
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 30, 2020 9:45:17 GMT -9
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 31, 2020 9:24:03 GMT -9
The square chimney would go directly on the roof. The round chimney gets glued to the platform. I based the round chimney off a Fix and Foxi steam engine stack. It built well many years ago, so the geometry will work. I still need to double check some math for the radius of the chimney pipe, but I think it looks good. I might want to lighten it and up the contrast, but for a first draft, I think it looks good EDIT -- Top of the platform is 194 pixels. Diameter of the pipe is 178 pixels. Should be good
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Post by monstersbtm on Dec 31, 2020 12:07:00 GMT -9
When schools open again (and I hope to have a little bit of spare time) I wish to print and try your building. Happy new year Vermin King!
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 31, 2020 13:06:43 GMT -9
Well, I should have the basic shallow roof version done by the weekend. Still don't have a new printer, so I will have to print gray-scale, but I want to have this done for this Hoard. Fingers crossed that gray-scale will work for all the pages. I think I will move the balcony to a separate page, so I can put the chimneys on the page with the sotoportego ceiling. That way I only have 7 pages to hope to get done. Wish me luck
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 31, 2020 20:59:44 GMT -9
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Post by Vermin King on Dec 31, 2020 22:20:43 GMT -9
And now in color...
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 1, 2021 5:31:49 GMT -9
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 1, 2021 7:15:23 GMT -9
Promo images EDIT -- Fixing tabs all around before adjusting scale. Did build the chimneys. On a shallow roof, I think the pipes need to be shorter
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 1, 2021 12:33:35 GMT -9
Well, before the printer died, I built squirmydad's Apartment Block and glennwilliams's Back Alley building. Sotoportego San Antonio looks big compared to those, but I haven't built the Merchant Prince or Casa Rosata. So now that I have my tabs where I want them on all my work pages and parts pages, I was going to do my re-scaling this afternoon, but I wanted to compare my building to the others. Casa Rosata has tall floors. Essentially Ca d'Oro has floors that are roughly a floor and a half tall. This building clearly isn't palatial. Keeping in mind the roof on the Apartment Block, the Dario building would need to be done at 90%. 91.3% to match the Merchant Prince. 76% for Back Alleys. To look better with the others, I will reduce this one to 90% of the current size
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Post by monstersbtm on Jan 1, 2021 14:44:28 GMT -9
Found a new printer? 😉 Now that's built your project looks even better that expected. At current size it actually looks a little bigger than what's supposed to be (commoners apartments) and I'm very curios to see it scaled down to 90%. Your comparison between all the various available buildings is pure gold.
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 1, 2021 17:01:16 GMT -9
I tend to look at this as one of the former palazzos that has fallen on hard times and been repurposed. A small palazzo, but the oversized door makes me think it was more than just a commoner's home to begin with. Maybe a master tradesman's house. Another hint is the quoins, the stonework at the corner, which I haven't seen much in Venetian architecture. But 'nice' was a couple hundred years ago.
So, I take it my renders look good enough, then?
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Post by monstersbtm on Jan 2, 2021 0:10:53 GMT -9
"good enough" is not enough. You did great!
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 6, 2021 6:07:32 GMT -9
I should have been back to this already, but I wanted to get the facade of San Zan done, and I started some preliminary work on Ponte de le Tette, and then got sidetracked by a blog, bluoscar.blogspot.com/Oscar lives not far from Venice and likes to go there and walk around taking photos. He hasn't posted since April, so I hope he is okay
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 12, 2021 9:39:47 GMT -9
Well, I started on this again for the tall roof version with Altana, only I was basing things on the roof adit side wall and altana wall being on the same line. Oops. The altana needs to be much wider. Here's where I got to. From the door, it will extend two inches toward the edge of the building. I think I will have it 4 inches X 2 inches, so I will need to work out the dimensions along the front edge of the door. Glad I didn't procrastinate much longer
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 13, 2021 5:47:52 GMT -9
Well, I now have the angles worked out on the terrace supports, but now I have to figure out how I want to lay this out. The inner walls of the terrace require texture. Still need to do the floor. I did the door and back walls of the terrace the way I did because I think this will be the portion that will need to be solid and little room for error. The dog house glues onto the part with the white block and then the part with the oversized window gets glued on top of it. I still need to decide on whether the supports should be tubes. But it is moving forward EDIT -- Since there is actually a Palazzo Dario, I changed the name of the thread. What does Palazzo Dario look like?
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Post by monstersbtm on Jan 13, 2021 14:24:54 GMT -9
I think it's great and I'll need instructions to build the whole thing 😁 palazzo darii: of course built to honor my name. (now I must visit that place!)
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Post by emergencyoverride on Jan 13, 2021 20:12:02 GMT -9
That is a super cool looking house. I love all the window arches.
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Post by Vermin King on Jan 13, 2021 20:26:25 GMT -9
So, is this a request for a Palazzo Dario? I am not sure when that photo was taken, but in several photos and paintings it was yellow/gold. Monet was quite taken by the occuli
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