Catapult & Crew

[labrat]

So we all know what catapults look like. There are many varieties. I need to design one that's simple enough to be modeled with paper, but still have the look of genuine and proper function. Any suggestions or points into a direction are welcome.

What about the crew? What does a catapult crew actually consist of. First to mind for me is the stereotypical three members:

A spotter - looks down range and calls the shots
A loader - loads the boulders
A crankman - cranks the arm back down for the next shot

Would one set of crew members be sufficient, or would you gamers and modelers like two sets of crew members for variety?

I am open for input as I am still in the early designing stages on this for the next 3 days or so.

[Parduz]

Are you thinking to a 3D or 2.5 model?

[Vermin King]

A wiki search is rather uninformative... other than describing a half dozen types of catapults. Actual use of a catapult would require a more exhaustive search, and it would differ depending on the type used.

[Parduz]

I think we can go a little abstract to the crew. What i mean is that, being used mostly at sieges, chances are that there was not a "trained crew" but just infantry soldiers which would have otherwise nothing to do .
For what i understand a lot of ppl may be needed: some to recharge the catapult (i mean, pull back the arm), some to load the projectile(s), more to move the damn thing to aim, then some officiers and an engineer maybe.
Wiki mentions treebuchet pulled by thousand of ppl instead of a counterweight.... imho you can go with 3 to 5 figueres per crew as a good abstraction.

[Tommygun]

I think two simple modified A-frames connected together with a shield wall in front and the throwing arm in the middle, could work as the catapult.
You might be able to make it with as little as three sandwich folded parts.
If that doesn't make sense I could draw out a picture.

[emergencyoverride]

Definitely go with box construction for the main pieces to give it some presence. I think 2.5 D would be too flimsy and weak looking. A siege engine is supposed to convey a sense of might. 3 figures for the crew would work. Like you said: a spotter, loader and crank man. We know there were more working it, but that'll keep the area from getting too cluttered. As far as build, make it a standard single arm throwing catapult with two a-frames like Tommygun suggested. Mainly when I think of a catapult, it is a square box frame with 4 wheels and a throwing arm mounted under some kind of forward structure ;D

[cowboyleland]

This one pops up! I think it takes more than one guy to crank back the arm. Why not make one fig that is two guys hauling on a crank. Maybe even attached to the 'pult so they don't need a separate stand.

Attachments:

[Vermin King]

Then you also have to decide between 'bucket' or 'sling'. I've seen both in movies. And then decide what it is throwing. If they are throwing boulders, my guess is that more than one loader may be necessary. On History Channel or something like that, there was an episode on Sieges. The catapult they used for demonstration actually had something similar to hamster wheels on each side of an axle for pulling the arm tight. Like Cowboy said, making the figures as part of the structure could help keep the number of figures down and make things less cluttered.

You'd probably want to go with the Bucket type if you are allowing incendiaries to be thrown.

[josedominguez]

The arm style stone thrower (onager) would need at least one crewman on each side winding back the crank, it's on a ratchet and you'd take it in turns to wind it a notch. Small machines would have a crank on each side with handles like a ship's wheel. Bigger machines would have a smooth wheel with holes in it to enable the use of a longer lever.

That's for a torsion arm thrower (one you wind back to store energy in a twisted rope or other 'spring'). The trebuchet type uses gravity, so a heavy weight is lifted then held in place while the sling is loaded, they'd have massive crews and probably draft animals too (alternatively the bucket can be rasied empty then weight added for the shot...... but that takes time too).

I'd say at wargames scale you'd be talking a couple of crewmen and a spotter for a basic model, with maybe a master bombardier and a couple of labourer types (maybe one with a brazier for flaming ammo and another moving rocks)

[Sirrob01]

I've seen quiet a few catapult models, how about a trebuchet as something slightly different?

[labrat]

Thanks everyone for your input and suggestions.

I think I will definitely go with 3d for the catapult. Probably a torsion machine. In real life it would require more than 3 crew members to operate the thing if they wanted to get shots off quickly. I think I may include a couple of extra crew members either for variety sake, or if you want to have larger crews. That way there will be some flexibility to the set.

I guess I'd better get busy on this, I only have a couple more days to hammer out the basic design if I want to stay on schedule. Hopefully I will have some preview sketches to show soon.

[josedominguez]

I can't wait, our 15mm warhammer project is stuck for siege engines. I'm trying to persuade Dave G to make some too

[Vermin King]

There are a few out there that can be rescaled. message me if you want the links.

[labrat]

So I have the crew sketched. The catapult itself is under construction. I have never done a 3d model before so I am putting a lot of time in so that I will hopefully not get behind schedule. It does take me forever to plan the layouts and make tweeks as I go along, but it's getting there.

Here is the first testbuild of the base and wheels:



And here are the rough sketches for the crew. They still need some work.

[josedominguez]

You've got to swap the crankman #1 head..... that needs to go on a personality model. No way he can be a lowly labourer. Maybe swap him to be a bombardier?

They are all superb. So much character

[Vermin King]

I have to agree. He doesn't look like the drudge that is turning a crank. It all seems to be shaping up well. I hope those links helped. In Wayback Machine I also found another trebuchet, besides the other links I sent. It uses rubberbands for torsion and will shoot a grape 30 feet. I'll send you the link if you want.

I know rubberbands and string aren't paper, but having a 'working' model would be pretty cool. How do others feel?

[Parduz]

The #1 Crankman is surely the Hero of the sieged ppl, disguised as a guard, secretly searching for a way to break that damn catapult

About the 3D model, my personal request is to keep it simple... so fake 2D wheels (letting the model stay on the bottom side) and simplicistic shapes... otherwise ppl like me will never build it. You may always release a full, detailed 3D model in a separate file.

[Vermin King]

The wheels look 2d with a band going around the outside edge. That isn't so bad. The 3d base shouldn't be bad either, but some might find it fiddly.

[labrat]

Interesting comments. My first thoughts were to put helmets on all of them like the footsoldiers. I figure that's basically what they are is footsoldiers who have been specifically trained to fire the catapult. Then I decided that these are a group of guys who like to have a good time when the battle is over. They like to drink and carouse, and tell the tales of the giant they just nailed with their catapult. So most of them won't wear a helmet, except for the leader who is a bit of a brown noser who never breaks the rules, and the other crankman wears it because he has a receding hairline. But basically these guys have a lot of personality, and they like to have a good time. So I'm ok with him having that head.

As for the catapult, I think it will be somewhere in between. I do want it to be 3d, but it won't be a working model. I will give suggestions in the instructions to either simplify it, so it's easier to build, or to make it more complex, perhaps even functional. Hopefully that will make everyone happy.

Most of the construction on this is the beams. If you can put those together, that's 70% of the model right there.

[emergencyoverride]

Looks great so far. I really like the faces. Lots of character there. And yeah, 4 or 5 box folds isn't much really when talking about building a super awesomely cool catapult.

[algoesnext]

I made wheels for my flame cannon using black foam board with a wheel image stuck on both sides - did the ancients use stub axles?

[labrat]

Here is how it's coming along. I have made some changes and additions since I did this testbuild. The actual design is almost done then I can get it painted. The crew are almost ready to be painted as well. I am hoping to finish the whole thing by this weekend.

[Vermin King]

The lines are very similar to Dryw's catapult in the Hoards, except yours has wheels and is 3d.

As you are developing this, I hope you are backing up to multiple storage devices.

[Dryw the Harper]

One small correction, it looks like the point where your catapult arm pivots is too far ahead of the bar that stops the arm at the top of it's swing (I hope you understand what I'm trying to point out).

Dryw the Harper

[Parduz]

Is'nt the arm too short? As the device did not need to function ;D is just an aesthetic problem.
I like that thing, anyway. No chances i'll build it, but it is effective!
Good job.

[labrat]

I made the same observations myself when I put the thing together. However, instead of changing the placement of the pivot point or the length of the arm, I instead decreased the size of the bracers and uprights. They will be a bit shorter and sit a little farther forward on the frame. This makes the arm not appear to be too short. The length of the arm is just how I want it so that a rope would pull it right down to the crank on the back. You get better leverage on the arm if the rope attaches to the end of the arm, than if it attaches somewhere in the middle. And when the arm strikes the crosspiece at the top it's at just the right angle to release the projectile.

I also decreased the size of the bucket, otherwise the boulders they are throwing would have to be massive. I think I might also fatten up the wheels a bit to make them easier to put together. I am also considering scaling the whole thing down. It's a little large. I should have set a mini next to it so you could get a better idea of the scale. Oh well.

[labrat]

The Catapult and crew are nearing completion. I am going to put in some hours to get them finished today. All I have left to do for the crew is to finish painting them. And with the catapult I just have to make any final changes/additions and get that painted as well.

Come hell or high water I'm going to finish it today even if I have to stay up all night getting it done. Where's my Mountain Dew and Twix bars? ;D It could be a long day.

[Parduz]

Is "Doping" allowed while drawing miniatures?

Or, you may always call a bad girl with a whip

[cowboyleland]

Personally, I would find that kind of motivation distracting.

[labrat]

The crew are pretty much done. Here is a preview of one of the loaders. I may still need to make some minor adjustments, but it's pretty much ready.